nait classic?

Posted by: Dan M on 15 April 2002

Posted on: 15 April 2002 by Tony L
quote:
Now the Nait 1 was obviously very limited in its inputs
and power, but I wonder if there would be demand for a true 'entry level'
Naim product.

I’m all for good affordable hi-fi that plays music, and I’ve argued this one out in the past, though can’t remember the thread name.

There is no denying that Naim have moved upmarket over the past 10 or 15 years. If you compare the market position of both their entry and top of the range products it is pretty obvious that both extremes are now radically more expensive. In real terms a Nait 5 costs twice that of a Mk 1 Nait, and obviously a 552 / 500 costs exponentially more than say a 32.5 / Hi / 250 from the same time period. Personally I feel this move is a bit of a shame as the Nait and 32.5 etc all managed to whup any competition in their day at any price. IMHO Naim still make the best electronics, but do so at a price that is totally prohibitive to the majority of music lovers. Most people I know consider 800 quid for an amp to be a completely outrageous amount!

The beauty of the original Nait was that you stood a chance of persuading non-serious hi-fi buying friends that it was worth the 30% extra over say a A&R A60 or whatever. Now a Nait costs over three times what Arcam’s A60 equivalent it has to be harder. By forsaking a tuner and tape deck it was possible to build a system such as a Rega 3, Nait, Minimax or whatever small speakers for little more than entry level prices. This was a great system.

Naim’s argument seems to be that with so much second hand kit floating around, this is the way in to the brand. This is actually some very good logic, Naim kit is pretty much indestructible, and when you think you can land a original Nait for about £150, and then get it factory serviced it for about £80 more you have a cracking amp that will work happily for another ten years - an astonishingly good use of 230 quid. It’s a green argument too, there is never the need to sling a Naim amp into a skip as it can always be fixed and sent to a new home.

One problem is that people new to the audio game often lack the confidence to buy second hand, and at this stage have not built up any form of trust relationship with a dealer. I suppose one idea would be for Naim to take the recycling angle to a higher level and actually advertise, brand, and sell factory serviced vintage kit – i.e. its got a certificate of good health and a guarantee from Naim that it will work for a good while (well you and I know it would anyway). Obviously this would put the kit at a far higher price than it can be found in a original non-serviced state, but would give a hell of a lot of confidence to buyers, and give the company a unique angle in the market place. I would have thought it would be possible to whack out nice clean and freshly serviced kit for a not unreasonable price. The major problem would be if this impacted the sales of the higher priced kit…

Tony.

Posted on: 04 October 2003 by David Stewart
They did listen, we now have the Nait5i !!
I sincerely doubt any new amp w/o remote would find a home with people other than the HiFi cognoscenti - Naim's market clearly has to be wider than this. I'd like to see a half-width amp too, but without other half-width components to match it, there's little to be gained.

The Nait5i is a great little product and potentially a worthy successor to the Nait2.
As far as I can see it's only serious drawback is the cost of adding a TT at a time when Analog is gaining in popularity.

As it doesn't take the internal MM/MC cards you need to add a stageline/prefix and at least a FC2 to power it. That adds up to an enormous £684 just to add a phono input?? I sincerely hope Naim has plans to address this issue, as for a substantial minority of buyers it could prove to be a major barrier to sales!

David
Posted on: 04 October 2003 by rafizi
hi...

absolutely agree with mr. lonorgan & eryzad's opinion. just like what the Volkswagen is doing to their used cars.

regards.

rafizi
Posted on: 04 October 2003 by Geoff P
quote:
As it doesn't take the internal MM/MC cards you need to add a stageline/prefix and at least a FC2 to power it. That adds up to an enormous £684 just to add a phono input?? I sincerely hope Naim has plans to address this issue, as for a substantial minority of buyers it could prove to be a major barrier to sales!


You don't have to buy the Stageline/FC2 you can get very inexpensive phono stages from for eg NAD or Musical Fidelity.
I am not saying that NAIM is right and it would be good if they had offered a "cheap" phono board but the 5i is stil value for money by the sound of it.

regards
GEOFFP
Posted on: 04 October 2003 by David Stewart
quote:
You don't have to buy the Stageline/FC2 you can get very inexpensive phono stages from for eg NAD or Musical Fidelity.

The problem really isn't the stageline, which only costs £190, its the FC2 you need to power it. Sure you could buy a non-Naim phono amp, but from Naim's point of view that doesn't look too clever does it? Cast your mind back a few years to the Nait3, you could add phono capability to that for the cost of a couple of internal cards at around £85-90 and they work fine. Thats the kind of solution you need for the 5i or a self-powered Stageline at not much more than the current one, or put a powered socket in the 5i!

David
Posted on: 04 October 2003 by Rico
On the Nait5i's lack of phono...
quote:
As it doesn't take the internal MM/MC cards you need to add a stageline/prefix and at least a FC2 to power it. That adds up to an enormous £684 just to add a phono input?? I sincerely hope Naim has plans to address this issue, as for a substantial minority of buyers it could prove to be a major barrier to sales!


Just maybe, Naim have sussed out their potential market. Just maybe, few folks are buying turntables to add to systems such as those the Nait5i will be the cornerstone of. Just maybe, if Turntable was a major consideration in selecting an amp, the punter already has an investment in vinyl and playback hardware, and will simply buy a Nait 5, or a 112/150 combo - and add the stageline.

Be aware, there are folks buying hifi these days who are asking such questions as "well with a turntable, how do you skip to the next track?"

"you pickup the arm from the record and move it across"

"oh, well how do you know where on the record the next track starts?" Cool

Naim is now faced with have an entire generation of potential customers who've never experienced vinyl (that's right, Mum & Dad had already turfed it for beermats before or soon after the generation in question were born) - are they likey to buy vinyl in a "my first Naim" system? Sometimes perhaps, but probably not often.

my £0.02

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - I guess the flipside is that there are loads of folks buying 4WD's who have never/will never engage low range and traverse a river of climb a track - unless it's a puddle in the Tesco's carpark, or flooding on the M4. Wink
Posted on: 04 October 2003 by David Stewart
Rico,
I think your supposition may be right in part but, the question is, what happens when the existing Nait5 ceases production. The entry level Naim system for a vinyl user will then become the 112+150 - that's quite a big leap up the price scale.

Your analysis also ignores the integrated amp replacement market, particularly for those who may be tempted to jump ship from other makes or who perhaps want to replace a Nait3, but have a TT.

There's clearly a number of ways Salisbury could address the issue, but it will need to be resolved, because as it stands the Nait5i is 'dead in the water!' from the perspective of the vinyl user.

David
Posted on: 04 October 2003 by Haroon
I reckon at the 5i price point the stageline isnt the appropriate option for vinyl use. I assume either naim will release a cheaper option or they intend vinyl users to buy an appropriate cheaper phono stage, something like the Graham Slee Gram 2. Whith the ukp £150 price diff between the 5 and 5i and ukp £100 for the graham we can all do the math.

I reckon naim are right about not needing upgradeability on the 5i - most peoples next upgrade to be worth while would be to go pre and power combination either new or s/hand. Adding f/cap and/or seperate power amp unit to the 5, is too small an improvement for the gains IMHO - id much rather move to 112+150 or a s/hand combo and then add extra supplies.

My only 'grief' with the 5i is I still think more power could be added. In the sub ukp£1000 market there is a great range of equipment with more power - Cyrus 8 ukp£800 70watts and Roksan kandy mkIII ukp£550 120watts - with superb timing, rhythm and detailed soundstages to boot. At the price the 5i is going for and that its not designed for upgradeability a headphone socket would have been much appreciated - even a cheap one.
Posted on: 04 October 2003 by Rico
quote:
Your analysis also ignores the integrated amp replacement market, particularly for those who may be tempted to jump ship from other makes or who perhaps want to replace a Nait3, but have a TT.


In which case they're making a sideways move - few marketers would want their customer to buy another of the same thing (ok the 5 & 5i are recognised as better amps than the 3)... they want them to buy the next better item in the product line, QED the 112/150 (+stageline). David I do understand your point, although suspect you're talking of a particularly small segment of Naim's existing or potential customer base.

Have Naim confirmed the demise of the Nait 5? [EDIT] oh, I just read this post from Richard Dane confirming the evolutionary step

regards

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - it's hard to please everybody all of the time.
Posted on: 05 October 2003 by David Stewart
Rico,
I suspect you're right that vinyl users don't represent the principal target market for the 5i, but at a a time when interest in vinyl appears to be increasing, it does seem a strange marketing decision to introduce a new entry level integrated that can't do vinyl!

It seems to me it would have been better to design the 5i to take the same internal MM/MC cards as the Nait3/102 etc., I suspect there's no shortage of space inside!

Anyway only time will tell, maybe Salisbury have other aces up their sleeve, like a 112/150 replacement that will sit at the same pricepoint as the existing Nait5 ??

Haroon,
Your point about more power is an interesting one but the 'Watts' thing really is more about customer perception than reality. Naim amps with low nominal output power have historically performed out of their league.

David