NAPs for Martin Logan
Posted by: JeremyB on 29 March 2001
The solution came from NANA: 180. Not just one though, one each side operating as a "monoblock" produced the sound very close to 135s that I had dreamt of. Of course, the 500 should also be a good solution.
Many thanks to Gene Rubin (www.generubinaudio.com) for being so helpful and patient and of course the people at NANA for the suggestion and for modifying the 180s (I believe they only made changes to the interconnect cables) to work as mono amps.
Jerem
quote:
To cut a long story short, both 250 and 135 tended to trip at quite low levels, this behaviour was confirmed by NANA to be expected.
The 250 and 135 both have a different protection circuitry than the newer amps in the Naim range. Unfortunately this was designed at a time when speakers did not display the highly reactive loads of certain panel speakers such as your Logans. Effectively the 250 or 135 thinks it is encountering a short circuit, and shuts itself off. It is simply the protection circuit shutting the amp down.
The smaller amps such as the 180 do not have the same type of protection, so ironically work perfectly into these speakers even though they are much less capable amplifiers both from a electrical and musical perspective. I have heard of people who have disabled the protection circuitry in the 250 or 135, and with this circuitry bypassed they allegedly (I remember reading this on the old conference) drive these speakers without problem. Obviously this "modification" would require the immediate disposal of all warranty material originating from Naim.
Personally I am a bit of a closet full range stat fan, so the prospect of driving the CLS with a decent amp would be an interesting to hear - they are usually partnered with the kind of US "High end" electronics that I have personally found incapable of holding a tune together. Bet a 500 would sound great. I have only heard the Logan Aries i and SL3a, both of which I quite liked in the panel region, but really hated in the (moving coil) bass. I would expect the full range ones to work far better, and not have the bass integration issues that put me right of the hybrids.
Tony.
quote:
Personally I am a bit of a closet full range stat fan, so the prospect of driving the CLS with a decent amp would be an interesting to hear
I don't normally admit it, but so am I. I've heard the SL3 many times (nearly bought a pair before SBLs) and like Tony thought the mid/top was brilliant but the bass was apalling. The Aerius was better in this respect.
I also liked the Apogee (forgot the name - with the full range ribbon) even though it was driven by some Levinson amp.
Laters
Dev.
Anyone envisage any capacitance problems with these?
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Nic P
Despite using round earth electronics (I actually realy like ML FWIW) the mid/top was brilliant, the soundstage spectaclar as was the PRAT. Even the bass seemed pretty well intregrated but I didn't have any hard core Techno to catch them out with.
Dev.
ps. Tony - I have managed to get hold of some 'mint' Rosewood Mk1 Kans (Mk1 stands unfortunately) for system 2, jealous mate?
quote:
I've said it before, but I do like the Magneplanars.
Me too, I have only tried the little (!) SMGa, but they seemed very good. Definitely had that total lack of box coloration that I can hear on just about every conventional speaker.
Can't mention stats without talking about Quad 57s, the first and still one of the best. These are a speaker I will definitely own at some point. Same as I needed to try Bariks, I need to try Quads!
quote:
ps. Tony - I have managed to get hold of some 'mint' Rosewood Mk1 Kans (Mk1 stands unfortunately) for system 2, jealous mate?
Nice one, they look good in rosewood. What are the Mk 1 stands like, I have never even seen a pair. What spec are the Kans - i.e. do they have binding posts or sockets? What are you going to drive them with?
Tony.
The Kans are Mk1 serial number 20000 odd, maes them 1983ish I guess. So I think they have the 100B driver with some damping material and original Scanspeaks. The cabinet is totally unmarked, and I am going to plonk them on to the end of my main system as a try out. The stands have sloping fronts.
I haven't actually got my paws on them yet but have done the deal. I spoke to RR about them and he reckons they are a good buy - he said the change from Scanspeak to Hiquaphone on Mk1s was due to Linn having a dispute with SSpeak, in his opinion the SSpeak s a better tweeter, he did mention that I would notice a midrange colouration from the bass/mid unit becasue of the driver. The good news is that I can get Wilmslow replacements if the drivers are really shagged. RR can put them for me FOC, he's abit of a speaker whiz after he doctored Linn Keltiks for his own use.
I actually owned Kans years ago, black Mk1's but didn't have a system to do them justice, but even then they I was surprised by how much music came out of those small boxes and while I love my SBL's, I'm eager to hear that Kan magic again.
You've got Kan tips posted all over the place, but I assume MAna spikes, totally level/rigid and SBL pads underneath are the way to go?
Dev.
ps. I will also try them with the 500 that is 'in residence'.
quote:
You've got Kan tips posted all over the place, but I assume MAna spikes, totally level/rigid and SBL pads underneath are the way to go?
Sounds like you have landed a very nice pair of Kans. As for setup, mine are quite simply done at present. No screws in the floor, stands not stamped in - I marked the spots the (Mana) spikes rested, then cut small 'X' into the carpet so I could level them without stamping. Makes the rhythm sound more realistic. Spikes into screws tilts them to fast, they make everything sound rushed, and stamping makes them a bit stodgy.
I have not tried the SBL pad thing, mine are just resting on the top spikes - The spikes are really sharp and the Kan just seems to settle without any rocking. My Kans are also mint condition, and have never been thumped down onto top spikes. There is a school of thought that thumping down onto the spikes is good, though I am reluctant to do it with mine.
Depending on how they work when I move into the new flat (assuming all goes ahead ok) I may eventually attempt to commission Mana to make some wall brackets for 'em. The flat has a Kan friendly wall (did you expect anything else!). There has been a lot of suggestion here by other users that wall brackets are best, with the Sound Organisation and Audiotech both having manufactured suitable ones in the past. Persuading Mana to produce some would probably be the ultimate solution.
Tony.
quote:
I just managed to pick up a pair of Quad's from the US distributor/service company QS and D in Virginia. I've wanted a pair of these for over 20 years, after hearing a friends back home in Scotland back in '78.
We all expect a full Kan vs Quad review very soon!
Tony.
RR told me that you had the 500's. How's it going? Report please. Don't leave them in the system too long cos "breaking up is hard to do".
In Canada on hol's right so whilst I'm music free at least I'm in the land of cheap CD's and I've got a must buy list as long as your arm.
Any requests?
Colin Lorenson
quote:
The smaller amps such as the 180 do not have the same type of protection, so ironically
work perfectly into these speakers even though they are much less capable amplifiers
both from a electrical and musical perspective.
The problem with the 135 is purely with the 10 microsecond current trip. The 250 would have a problem both with the current trip and the case temp reaching 70degC. An alternative for evaluation purposes is simply to play them at low levels. In this case, 2 x 180 is "bigger" than a single 250 and smaller than 2 x 135s. I didn't get a chance to try 2 x 250. This makes sense since I believe the 180 uses identical circuit boards to the 135, with a lower VA rating transformer. I would say the sound of 2 x 180 is much better than a 250 (and quite different) and almost but not quite as good in all respects as the 135s.
I have never heard the BKS speakers, are they currently available?
I agree about any electrostatics with a sub-woofer, the ML Prodigy/Krell setup I listened to sounded awful (like Revel/Mark Levinson) except for the traditional ES beautiful mid range which unfortunately had very poor musical timing in this setup.
Quads must also sound good with Naim amps, shame they are now vintage items and look like they do. The CLS on the other hand is visually stunning IMO and is a current design.
Nic P
Must have a sesh at mine sometime soon and will introduce you to Mr six pack Isobarik man Sean and Mr 'I'm into LP's again' Calum.
RR is going to lend us all of his esoteric kit, starting with the CD12 for a proper CD12 CDS2 shootout at mine. I will also demonstrate the superiority of the Well Tempered over a live performance, while Sean will attempt to show how a Music Works mains plugs makes Shania Twain sound like Tammy Wynette.
Our group will now be known as ANAL (Aberdeen Naim Audio List) and it bascially be a bunch of hifi nerds (us) talking bollocks about hifi once a month. Robert Ritchie is our life president and we will all sign an allegence in our blood.
See you when you get back 
Dev
ps. Janis Ian's Breaking Silence to replace my lost copy please.
Dev
Are you sure that's a good thing?
Timo
How long have you had your 500? Mine is three weeks old and is taking forever to break-in. Naim told me to expect three months before it settles in. Are you doing anything special to break-in your amp?
Chris Bell
PS: Don't get me wrong its an amazing upgrade...I am (impatiently) awaiting the magic I heard from the store demo unit.
quote:
I was unable to sell the wall brackets but was unwilling to take them to the tip, so if anyone is prepared to pay for postage I’ll send them.
I would like to give them a go if you still have them. Drop me a line and I will send you what you want for postage.
Thanks,
Tony.
quote:
Persuading Mana to produce some would probably be the ultimate solution.
Tony,
I think there is more potential in the Kan than we perhaps realise.
I have a stand design in mind which we could ask Mana if they would make for us...i won't reveal the details here but I think they could sound outstanding.
I know Mana has just moved to Wales so I'll wait a while until things are settled for them.
All we need now is a decent sub for the Kans, the RELs while good, are not really fast enough, I think a couple of Carvers' Sunfire subs might be the way to go, I know a someone in the US who uses them with good results.
Dev
quote:
I have a stand design in mind which we could ask Mana if they would make for us...i won't reveal the details here but I think they could sound outstanding.
Cool. Keep me informed.
quote:
I think a couple of Carvers' Sunfire subs might be the way to go
They are pants. The most fun to be had with a Sunfire is to stand it on its driver, put on something with a heavy 909 kick and watch the sub jump round the room. They can clear the floor by about 4-5 inches!
The REL subs are the best I have heard so far despite them having ports. There is a school of though that the little cheap ones are faster than the big dear ones, two little ones are probably better than one big one.
I plan to add a sub at a much later stage (i.e. after source / preamp upgrades), I love the idea of being able to turn the bass off for late night listening with out annoying the neighbours. I tried Jawed's old REL Stentor with my first pair of Kans years ago, and the results were very promising.
Tony.
cheers
Nigel
try a pair of Q400s. Small sealed boxes - I've heard these sound very fast (at the Novotel two years ago).
cheers, Martin
quote:
So Kans don't do bass then
Not quite as much as a coffee table sized REL it has to be said. The bizarre thing is that you hear the benifit of a good sub more in the treble and mid than the bass!
Tony.