Wagner Ring Cycle

Every time I forget if you're David or Duncan...

I'm not much of Ringer (more into Parsifal and T & I) but there's three Ring recordings that come to mind: the Böhm recording at Bayreuth that always gets a lot of praise, and quite recently the Haintink at Covent Garden that was praised by some, but hasn't fared that well generally. Thirdly there's Levine, who, tempowise, would be the opposite of Böhm, i.e. almost glacially slow.

I have to say I used to have a fairly massive prejudice against Barenboim (based on his somnolent piano playing and his general gentleman pose), but I have come to the point of seeing him as the fin-de-siècle Wagner conductor. Perhaps anyone would like to comment on this?

Herman

Hello,

An other well-known ring with Solti is the Ring conducted by Böhm (with the Bayreuth Festival Orchestra).

The orchestra liberates energy progressively and lightly.
Voices are all very good (Birgit Nilsson)

Fortunately, This ring (14 cd) is not expensive.

Alexandre

DJH,

With the Ring, the problem is that wanting good stereo sound and good performances is a compromise.

From what I've heard of Barenboim, I find that he struggles to keep momentum and intensity over long streches - really a prerequisite for the Ring. The set does have the advantage of the best Wotan currently around (John Tomlinson). Opinion seems divided on Anne Evans (Brunnhilde) - whatever her vocal virtues, I think she is just too underpowered for the role.

With regard to conducting, the Furtwangler set is the one to have. It does have it's faults including a poor orchestra and not the greatest cast. It's certainly not a set to get to know the piece by, the recording is just too bad.

I have a pet hate for the Solti set. As far as conducting, his approach is probably the worst available -he has a really choppy way with the music which never flows or develops. Not really suprising considering the limited experience of Wagner conducting he had prior to the recording. The set does have some advantages - a good recording, the greatest Wotan of the day (Hans Hotter - although unfortunately on poor form) and an excellent Brunnhilde (Birgit Nilsson).

Of other sets I've heard, the Levine set has it's merits including an excellent Gotterdammerung and a good Siegfried. Wotan (James Morris) is a bit of a let down, but Brunnhilde (Hilegard Behrens) is not bad (probably almost the best we can expect today - which says a lot for the current crop of Wagner singers).

From what I remember, Haitink's set is a real let down - from the performances I been to in the last few years, I think his conducting of the work has moved on considerably.

I've never heard the whole of the Karajan set, but of what I've heard, it would be OKish if it wasn't for the fact that the singers all sound like they are in an echo chamber - all part of Karajan's 'chamber' approach to Wagner. Not for me.

If you want a set in stereo, probably the safest bet is Bohm's set from Bayreuth.

If you want Furtwangler in better sound, I'd highly recommend his 1954 recording of Die Walkure with the Vienna Philharmonic. The recording is remarkably natural, better than most of the stereo sets mentioned. The real shame is that Hans Hotter was unavailable at the time of the recording, so Ferdinand Frantz stepped in (adequately, but not in the same league ), and probably one of the greatest losses of the recording industry was that Furtwangler did not survive to complete the rest of the cycle.

I'd also highly recommend the 1951 live Gotterdammerung conducted by Hans Knappertsbusch with Astrid Varnay as Brunnhilde.

I've also heard good things both in terms of cast and conducting for the Krauss set from 1953 - I've heard excerpts from this - the recording is better than Furtwangler, but still way from ideal.

....and having said all that, I still get more pleasure from an average performance live, than from any of the sets above, so go and see it when you can.

David

[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on WEDNESDAY 21 August 2002 at 14:59.]

Vuk

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Astrid Varnay, possibly my favourite soprano of all time, gives us a devastating Brünnhilde that would stir even Nigel Cavendish's petrified heart.

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What's all this about? You know I don't read up-yer-arse opera threads.

cheers

Nigel

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The only one in acceptable sound is the Vienna studio Walkure, which sounds as if Furty nodded off during the prelude and was woken up just as Brunnhilde was put to sleep. To call it low voltage is an understatement; it runs on two AA batteries.

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Ross, I know you're not Furtwangler's biggest fan, but low voltage? You're winding us up, surely?

I like you, struggle to make a final recommendation, which is why I'd rather see it.

What about this Karajan set, is the rest of the set really supposed to be that good? Certainly with the the 1951 Knappertsbusch Gotterdammerung was supposedly far greater than the rest of the cycle, which is why they never kept the recordings.

David

Isn't it interesting that no one can agree on this topic ? Not just that, but the points of view are often completely opposed.

I have just finished listening to Gotterdamerung over 3 evenings on the Solti Remastered (LP) set, which is the only Ring Cycle with which I am so far familiar.

I cannot agree with Vuk in his comments on this Cycle, but if it's as bad as he says then I'm really looking forward to hearing some of those which he recommends.

Has anyone a view on the Deryck Cooke introduction to The Ring, which is based on the Solti recordings ? I have found that it makes some sense of the whole undertaking.

David,

The Deryck Cook introduction to the Ring is a good way to get to familiarise yourself with some of the themes and the transformations Wagner does with them.

...and his favourite version is Furtwangler's...

Enough said.

David

I'm kind of intrigued by this "chamber approach" of Karajan's David mentions. I assume you're referring, in part, to the fact that this is more a studio recording than most Wagner recordings you mention - or Vuk for that matter?

After reading the reviews of Abbado's Edinburgh Parsifal I listened to parts of Karajan's 1980 Salzburger Parsifal, and the 1962 Bayreuth Parsifal by Knappertsbusch, and I have to say there are one or two things Karajan does that I like very much.

Most importantly is the way Karajan, and of course the marvellous BPO, realizes the sense that Parsifal, generically is a pastoral story. Monsalvat was meant to be a place of peace where no sinners ever came. Of course this pastorale is perverted by failure and guilt, but nonetheless, Karajan clearly priviliges the woodwinds in the relevant passages to bring out this pastoral character, just like the brass is emphasized in passages relating to struggle and evil. My sense is that Knappertsbusch is largely unaware of this, perhaps being more a Kapellmeister who is into moulding and developing the long lines - no mean task when you're talking about Wagner. Perhaps Karajan's Parsifal is the best way to appreciate why Parsifal made such a huge impression on Debussy, it's sort of the impressionists' Parsifal?

Of course the downside of this fine detail in the brass and woodwind is the rather strict way the strings are handled. Knappertsbusch's lines are much more supple. And obviously there's the singers. The studio circumstances allow for more intimacy, while Knappertsbusch's singers have to project volume no matter how intimate their lines are. But what Karajan gains with Jose van Dam, he loses with Vejzovic's inept Kundry. Knappertsbush's Irene Dalis lives her role, while Vezjovic is merely trying to hang on to her lines. It's almost as if Karajan didn't want a good soprano. His Isolde was a similar failure.

Well, these are just a couple of notes, mostly showing no dount I'm definitely not a Wagner man - which I'll only underscore by saying in conclusion that in fact I rather like Böhm's T & I, and I wouldn't be surprised if his Ring would give the best balance between authentic Bayreuth performance and sound reproduction (that is, if you have a really good cd player). I fully expect to be banned from future Wagner discussions after this.

Herman

[This message was edited by herm on THURSDAY 22 August 2002 at 14:19.]

N.B. *Wagner enthusiast out of depth warning*

Any thoughts on the Chandos [nee EMI]Goodall Ring in English? Obviously, like any opera not in its original languge, it's not a first choice, but for an English speaker, I find it adds a tremendous depth to other versions, esp. in the dull bits. And although on the slow side, he manages to sustain intensity very well. I wish he had attempted Parsifal [my favourite Wagner - indeed, my favourite opera, which I got to know by falling asleep to it over a period of months on my Walkman, a technique I would recommend to anybody faced with a seemingly impenetrable new work].

I bought the Boulez DVD set with the intention of using it in conjunction with my excercise bike - giving my own meaning to the concept of the Ring Cycle. Good intentions give way to sloth however, and the bike is currently parked against the woodbird's tree. It's a good visualisation though [thoroughly enjoyed it when it was first broadcast on BBC2 and found it hard then as now to see why it was so controversial at the time] and cheap with it.

I'm currently enjoying my first live Ring [ENO] which in its semi-staged form makes me wonder if a fully staged version could do anything but detract from the experience. Rhinegold fab, but less convinced by Valkyrie - Kathleen Broderick's Mrs Overall-in-leather interpretation needs to win me over. Jane Eaglen might have been a safer choice, although the number of cows needed for the outfit perhaps put them off.

throb

Herman,

I think Karajan was trying to outdo the engineering team behind the Solti project, in using any effect at his disposal to present Wagner's works in the pleasure of your own home. Under these conditions, who needs voices that can project to the back of a large opera house, when a few twiddles of knobs in the engineering room will have the same effect (perhaps Karajan's logic). For most of Wagner's works, I think this approach is doomed to failure. I'd agree that I think it is quite succesful for Parsifal, although, if I had to choose I'd plump for Knappertsbusch.

David

Throbnorth,

I could have sworn that there was a Goodall Parsifal out there. I thought I'd seen it - all 6 or 7 CDs of it.

I would love to get the Boulez DVD ring, but find the choices around DVD and AV more complex than which is the best ring cycle to listen to.

The best Rheingold I saw was semi-staged. Whether some modern staging detract from the experience probably depends on your openness to the rather extreme productions that Wagner seems to attract.

David

I must admit that Karajan's Parsifal is truly excellent (and I don't normally like his approach). He manages to engage both head and heart from the prelude onwards, sustaining this right through to the final scenes. Very impressive. I do not think that the Knappertsbusch '63 version is as good - I find the creaking stage floorboards in the final scenes very eery and distracting.

On the strength of his Parsifal, and because I really dislike Bohm's screeching Tristan and Isolde, I tried Karajan's version. This is not in the same league as his Parsifal - it's almost like a B movie melodrama - but it is at least listenable to without having your ears blown out by a soprana who sounds like a steam whistle on steroids.

Matt,

I've not heard this version of Wagner's ring - hardly sounds like you can go too far wrong, and I'm certainly enjoying the Shostakovich symphonies on Brilliant I'm currently listening to. The review on Amazon is certainly encouraging. Unless your German is top notch, you will want to find a copy of the libretto translation.

The other thing to consider is that if you are willing to look around, you will often find some of the sets mentioned above significantly discounted from the list prices.

David

Hi Matt,

would that Ring be your first Wagner? In that case I'd recommend you to start with a single work rather than starting with a 13 or 14 cd purchase (and I wouldn't go for Brillant: the Shostakovich release with Barshai is one of those exceptions with a good conductor and orchestra, whereas those people on the Wagner thing are all pretty much unknown).

If indeed this would be your first Wagner I'd recommend getting a good Tristan und Isolde. I'd even recommend you'd get the fairly cheap Böhm.

Herman

Herman,

I'd only disagree in that for starters, I think almost any performance would do. My first introduction to Wagner was Lorin Maazel's 'Ring without Words'.

This confession should also ban me from any future Wagner discussion.

David

Well, the future for Wagner discussions looks very grim indeed...

Herman

Radio 3 will be broadcasting a complete Ring cycle from the 2002 Bayreuth festival over Christmas.

Shame I won't be able to hear it, but maybe they'll put extracts on their excellent web site.

I've noticed there are lots of Excerpt or Highlight 2CD sub-sets of the Ring Cycle representing most of the major recordings mentioned so far in this thread.
Maybe for the Ring Cycle 'newbie' (like me!), buying 1 or 2 of these might be a good strategy and offer an introductory flavour at low cost.
Crotchet list loads of them at typical prices around £10-12 for the 2CD set. What do the Wagner-holics think?

David

Matthew - I haven't heard the Brilliant version, but given their track record and the Amazon reviews, not to mention the price [which, BTW, seems a little expensive for them] I think you were right to go for it - can we have a review as soon as you get it?. I was thinking about starting a thread on Brilliant, and your posting has just reminded me - thanks!

throb

Hi David,

I am, of course no Wagnoholic, but still I would not recommend getting a highlight compilation. That's not how these music dramas work.

I used to wonder why it is when you're listening to a piece of music and you go and pour yourself a drink or powder your nose (as I often find myself doing), as soon as you're out of the room you want to run back, because you hadn't realized there was this gorgeous moment coming in the music. After twenty years of running to and fro the final analysis is: good music doesn't have any downtime. It only looks that way, but every two or three minutes there's something wonderful happening, and you don't want to miss it. It's all one gorgeous moment.

So that's why I'd say no to disjointed compilations.

You could however start with the Rhine Gold. That's a two CD recording, it's the opening piece of the Ring, and it's pretty good.

Herman

I take your point, it's probably a bit like watching Rugby highlights on TV, you tend to lose the flow of the game.

The only Wagner opera I've any experience of is the Dutchman which I really liked, but it's altogether more accessible than the Ring, although I do like many of the orchestral extracts I've heard - not sure about the singing though??

Maybe I'll try your suggestion and take it in bite size chunks starting with Rheingold. Have a good musical Xmas.

David

"Opinions are like belly-buttons, everybody's got one"

A predictably helpful comment. Why bother if you don't have anything constructive to add

David

What makes Ross's comments so useless is that it's different listening to the higlights when you pretty much know the entire works by heart, as Ross does. In that case you interpret the higlight performances in the context of what you know.

When you are a Wagner newbie, as David called himself, it's a totally different thing. You don't know where those pieces are coming from and where they are going. That's why I thought excerpts would not be a good idea.

Herman

Look, I'm not totally dim, but this Wagner Ring thing is just too difficult for me. I feel like I'd need a lifetime of study to get into it, and I've used up half a lifetime already listening to other things. Is there an easy way to appreciate it? It's a sort of Lord of the Rings musical isn't it?

malcolm the rather uncultured

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Originally posted by Rockingdoc:
Is there an easy way to appreciate it?
It's a sort of Lord of the Rings musical isn't it?

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I'd say no and no again. But perhaps there's others who say yes to an easy way. David H-M, for instance, might say just go to a performance of these pieces. That's four nights and you're in. Others might say spending the second half of your life on Wagner (mostly) is bound to be better than the first half. Etc etc.

Herman