Wagner Ring Cycle

malcolm,

By far the best way to get into it is to get some tickets to a performance of it - unfortunately this isn't failsafe, as it really helps if it's a reasonable performance as well. Failing that, DVD with subtitles is probably second best.

I struggle getting into any opera that I haven't seen live.

David
(Herman you beat me to it!)

OK, I think I can see sense in both approaches here, at least in as much as they aren't mutually exclusive. Being a great believer in compromise, I think I might go for the Deryk Cook introductory set (£17 from MDT) plus one or other version of the Rheingold. MDT have the Bohm or Boulez at £17, or the Solti, Barenboim or Levine all at less than £25.

All in all that should give me the overview and highlights of the Ring, the complete first part and a chance to study two different conducting styles (Solti/Bohm) within a reasonable budget.

David

Do you have some magic trick for finding tickets for Wagner Operas? Like most everything else in the UK that's worth seeing, seats often seem to be sold out before they go on public sale, or if not within the hour.

This seems to apply to non-classical concerts as well. Mystifies me where they all go, but it clearly isn't the man in the street who's getting them all?

Presumably the main beneficiaries are Ticket Bureaux ,Tour Operators and Hospitality Companies, but I'm only guessing here.

David

"Opinions are like belly-buttons, everybody's got one"

David,

I was fortunate that when I did get into opera a few years ago it coincided with meeting a friend who knew someone in the ROH ticket office. Unfortunately that contact his since left.

Other than that, it helps to know when the application forms for the upcoming season are coming out, and to apply immediately. There's also returns, that are worth checking out.

Also, consider becoming a 'Friend of Covent Garden' - this gives you some prior application time, and also gives you access to rehearsal tickets that can be very cheap, and are usually full performances. For example, I recently had a full dress rehearsal ticket for Meistersinger that cost £7.

When you work out how to get tickets for Bayreuth, please return the favour!

David

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When you work out how to get tickets for Bayreuth, please return the favour!

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OK - consider it done

David

"Opinions are like belly-buttons, everybody's got one"

I notice that MDC Music are selling the Brilliant Complete Ring boxset for £9.99 for 14CDs here! Who is going to see whether this is worthwhile?

David

Well having scoured the globe, I finally tracked down a copy of the Gala, Krauss ring from 1953 from a shop in Florence.

First impressions are excellent, with Astrid Varnay on very impressive form, and Hotter in much better voice than the Solti recording. Makes the Bohm ring cycle seem insipid in comparison. Sound is very good for the time - looking forward to exploring this set for some time to come.

David

On the first page of this thread there was a little OT discussion of Parsifal, my favorite Wagner work. At the time I defended the Karajan recording, and I'm digging up this thread just to say I listened to the entire Knappertsbusch Parsifal from the 1962 Bayreuth last night, and I have to say it beats the Karajan easily. (I know, you're all pointing at your heads, saying, we told you so.) There are a couple of superior details in the Karajan, such as the light hitting the Grail (the orchestral balance is magical there), but the details do make you stop, whereas the Knappertsbusch is a more dramatic experience which makes you put on the next disc. The singing is excellent, and the orchestra (especially the strings) is great. So now someone is going to tell me about a better, earlier Knappertsbusch recording, no doubt.

Perhaps other contributors have had new Wagner experiences to be shared?

Herman

So is the 1962 Knappertsbusch really the one to go for? (Just kidding.) I recently came to understand how great the work is after my third try. First I tried Levine's horrendous 1985 flop. Then I tried Karajan's beloved digital set. Much better. I actually liked it a lot. Then I picked up Barenboim's set for half price and was floored. The whole thing was miraculous. It did not feel like I had been listening for over four hours when it finally ended. I didn't want it to end. Parsifal is now my favorite Wagner opera, beating out even Meistersinger. I will be buying the Kna set very soon.

Interestingly, the 1951 Kna Parsifal is now out on Naxos, as is the 1951 Karajan Meistersinger. (Both are from Bayreuth.) Unfortunately, neither are available in the US, so I'll have to import. (Damn lawyers. Damn 95 year US copyright law!)

As for Debussy, well I heard Pelleas before either Tristan or Parsifal, but when I did listen to the Wagner works, Tristan especially, I was struck by how much Debussy had copied the German's work. And for all these years I thought Debussy was so incredibly original. Silly me. I still love Pelleas, though.

Ross,

I'm talking about the 24 / 96 edition - (50 years of great recording).

I don't know if it's just me, but I get a weird kind of satisfaction from listening to these recordings (we were in the car with some Rubinstein Chopin today) and saying to Rosie: "this was about five years from when you were born."

I like this performance too for Irene Dalis's Kundry. Maybe she's not the greatest Wagner singer, historically, but every time she breaks my heart.

Herman

I haven't actually heard the Brilliant set, but have found various reviews which say that the recording is excellent, the orchestra extremely good, but the singers ..... are .... pretty average, with the odd good performance here and there. As A Solti / Bits of Bohm owner, I can't really see that augmenting my collection with an average performance would do me any good [am I wrong?], but for anyone who fancies dipping a toe in, it sounds really tempting.

Part of the revelation of Wagner is the cathartic effect of hearing a whole opera. Bits & bobs don't do it. Having said that, you really do need a libretto, which I understand the Brilliant box doesn't have. Any websites one could look out for which provide this [with translation, natch]?. Such a website would be v. useful anyway, - I have a number of radio recordings of various stuff which it would be handy to know what people are going on about.

throb

I hate to say it (but someone has to do it). It's great this Brilliant thing exists; I have the Haydn symphonies myself. But it's like the entire discourse about music has shifted from what it's about, how you feel about it, etc, to how many discs you got for how little money. Is it really that important? I'm sorry but I'm totally happy to pay just a little more for a little fewer discs. The more you get at one go, I find, the less attention you pay.

Herman

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Originally posted by herm:

....Is it really that important? ....

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No, but I still like finding a bargain, especially when the music and music-making are of high quality. (Like the Brilliant Haydn box.) Ultimately, only quality counts. Of course. That's why I've ended up paying more than list-price occasionally to import select titles.

Yours obviously is a special case, Todd. Clearly you live in a time zone ideally suited to multi big music buys, with 48 hours in the day, so you can listen to three Parsifals in a row, and round it off with a careful comparison of the entire Beethoven piano solo oeuvre by Gieseking, Schnabel and Kempff the latter and Kempff the former, and write a post about it before bed time.

You just gotta make time

I can only wish that I did have 48 hours in a day. Since I don't, amphetamines of various types must do. Usually it's just lots of coffee. That, and my propensity toward insomnia. Plus I live in suburban heaven, at least for a music fan, in that my stereo room is situated such that my wife cannot even hear the stereo from our bedroom, even at moderately loud volumes. The neighbors most certainly cannot hear the rig. (Besides, they are usually sitting in front of their big-screen based home theaters.)

Also, I think I should point out that my posts usually do not follow immediately after listening to music. Take Parsifal. I listened to the Levine version last October, the Karajan last December, and the Barenboim a couple of weeks ago. There's no way that I could listen to them all in a short time period. As for Beethoven piano sonatas, irrespective of the artist, I usually listen to between three and six of them at a stretch. (And it took me four months to do that Haydn box!)

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I recall that you intended to buy other recordings after you picked up the Sawallisch set. Have you done so yet?

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Yes, I have the Barenboim set on order, but only because it is half-price. Despite your reservations, I did rather enjoy the Sawallisch set. Cheryl Studer was fine, and I thought Bernd Weikl did a fine job, too. I know that I must buy both the Karajan and Kubelik sets - they are both on my quite lengthy to-buy list - but I will have to do that later. And now I must decide between the studio and 1951 live sets by Karajan. Perhaps I'll buy both!

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Originally posted by Ross Blackman:
The real point is that if you buy it just because it is cheap there is an excellent chance that it won't be very good and you will not like it. You would then say "I just don't like Wagner"

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Exactly. I'm not talking about Wagner specifically - many people will buy the best recording and still not like Wagner, or just want to get on with their lives. But people (actual grownups) buying a mega box with the Best Piano Concertos played by Lord Knows Whom and his Back Yard Strings, I find that just mindboggling.

And it's especially mindboggling at a time like this when the record companies are remastering old stuff like crazy and releasing the best performances from the fifties and sixties at mid-price. Agreed it will still be more than a dime a disc, but please, you don't eat dog food because it's cheap either, do you?

Herman

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Originally posted by dozy:
I don't think the Brilliant boxes come into the category of "best piano concertos in the world ever" by K tel. I think you are being elitist/condescending here.

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Quote from the 'Brilliant Classics thread:

"Just picked up today a 25 disc set of Piano Concertos (Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Grieg, Mendelssohn, Schumann,Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Listz, Brahms, Ravel, Saint-Saens and Gershwin) for 20 euros."

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=67019385&f=38019385&m=1961933806&p=1

And, yes, of course, I'm being elitist*. Having Naim stuff rather than a ghetto blaster is pretty elitist too. But I'll tell you another reason why I'm not too hot about these multi disc sets. Being stupid, lazy and all kinds of other elitist things, I just find I have a hard time getting through the entire box. If I purchase cd's one, two or three at a time, I will listen to each one carefully. If I really want to get to know all 33 discs of the Haydn symphonies, I guess I'll first have to enlist in the Arola Academy of Pacific Listening.

* I don't even know who are performing all those piano ctos, but there's no doubt in my mind they're better than the K-tel level.

Herman

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Originally posted by herm:

If I really want to get to know all 33 discs of the Haydn symphonies, I guess I'll first have to enlist in the Arola Academy of Pacific Listening.

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You'd better hurry up and enroll Herman. Classes are filling quickly and will start soon. The tuition is quite reasonable: either a (new style) HiCap or one shopping binge at MDT.

I bought Emerson Str. Qt. Shostokovich set and really get fatigued by it and they all run together. Quite wonderful playing tho. I think I'll stay away from collections too Herman and get one nice recording at a time.

Just bought an Irving Fine CD and he is an overlooked composer in the shadow, or following, of Stravinsky. Wonderful woodwind quintet that is toe curling and ear pleasing.

Has anyone heard the quality of the Naxos reissues. I saw both the Karajan Meistersinger and Knappertsbusch '51 Parsifal for £20 each yesterday - very tempting. However, on limited funds, I got distracted by the new DVD release of the Royal Opera House production of Salome with Catherine Malfitano and Bryn Terfel conducted by Christoph Von Dohnanyi. Highly recommended.

David

Ross,

I had the good fortune of seeing the production live In the same season there was also a stunning Electra with Deborah Polaski which I'm hoping that they will bring out at some point.

I'm not buying any more Rings for the moment - still thoroughly enjoying the Krauss.

David

Reading this thread reminded me I picked up a 5LP set (Philips) of the 62 Bayreuth Parsifal under Knappertsbusch at a yard sale some time ago but hadn't got around to playing it.
Put it on the LP12 last-night and listened to Act 1 - it sounds excellent, certainly a bargain for £2 as it looks mint.
I'm surprised that the 'Dutchman' hasn't merited a mention in this thread. It introduced me to Wagner opera and seemed a much more approachable piece than some of the others. What do others think and which is the prefered version?

David