European J***, what makes it special?

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:
Mike - your sweeping statements are what get you into so many arguments on this forum unlike any other member in the music room.

This is no troll or wind-up, at least not on this end.

My post didn't get personal. Yours did.

Everyone has their own motives for posting.

You are entitled to your opinion, but my last post was my honest opinion.

Leave it at that.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Leave it at that.

Why?

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Leave it at that.

Why?

OK Lontano, it you don't want to leave it at that, why not help me out?

What makes European Jazz special?

As a side note, the European Jazz discs are making the rounds in the musicians' community here in New Orleans.

My only comment to the recipients was that I had some "new" jazz from Europe, and that the music has a devoted following.

In other words, no negative commentary.

Haven't heard back from anyone, but I expect some will feel as I do, some will shrug it off, and it will set some on fire, they love it so much.

So it goes.

quote:

Originally posted by Mika K:
But if you want to discuss about European jazz that is a whole different story and has necessary nothing to do with ECM. Even there are some connections available the field to choose from is so much bigger out there..

Tell me more.

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
Vlada, if you actually knew the recording I cited, you'd know that the other three musicians in Jarrett's group are Europeans, and that its music has a pronounced European jazz sensibility.

In plain English and without citing any recordings, what is "a pronounced European Jazz sensibility"?

Like it or not, jazz is first and foremost a tale of the African-American experience. Others play jazz, but they don't have a fundamental "reason for being" in their music.

When you move an art form away from it's core, the music whithers and dies.

So it goes.

I'm definately not the only one that feels this way.

Mike, here is a very good European jazz album you might like - Hello Troll.

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:
Mike, here is a very good European jazz album you might like - Hello Troll.
[/IMG]

Still no answer?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:
Mike, here is a very good European jazz album you might like - Hello Troll.
[/IMG]

Still no answer?

not from me. too busy listening to good music

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Like it or not, jazz is first and foremost a tale of the African-American experience. Others play jazz, but they don't have a fundamental "reason for being" in their music.

When you move an art form away from it's core, the music whithers and dies.

So it goes.

I'm definately not the only one that feels this way.

Like I said.

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I listened to quite a bit of ECM (10 discs) a few months back. That is concluded and will not be re-visited.

Mike I find it very strange that you would start a thread on European Jazz when you gave a few European Jazz discs a listen, dismissed them quickly and do not want to revisit them - in great contrast to the way you repetitively listen to the same old piece of classical music over and over again.

Just for the record, these are the ten discs. Six of them are on ECM. Not much new age there in my books - the closest being Jan Garbarek which is influenced by Norwegian folk music.

E.S.T. - From Gagarins Point of View
E.S.T - Seven Days of Falling
Tomasz Stanko - Dark Eyes (ECM)
Tomasz Stanko - Lontano (ECM)
Jan Garbarek - I Took Up The Runes (ECM)
Tord Gustavsen - The Ground (ECM)
Tord Gustavsen - Being There (ECM)
Lars Danielsson - Tarantella
Enrico Rava - Easy Living (ECM)
Benedikt Jahnel - Modular Concepts

I agree with everything Fred has said - he is doing a great job of trying to correct some of the many inaccuracies and misunderstandings in what you write.

I had decided that I could not be bothered to make a reply to this thread as whatever any one writes it is always wrong in the eyes of the OP, but there you go I changed my mind.

I have to agree with Adrian on this. Most of the albums on the list are simply wonderful. I love listening to them and just cannot get enough of it.

I think that this is becoming personal. The problem is that actually it is very hard to define what Jazz is.

Let me start with quoting Simon:

quote:

... jazz, if nothing else, is the opposite of exclusionary. Jazz has always been a hybrid music, a fusion of many cultures, extremely flexible and adaptive.

Here I agree 100%. Also "Jazz" (with intention in quote marks) is a music where you have more a less an equality between the author and the interpreter. So for sure someone who has grown up in Europe has been exposed to different influences then someone in the states. This will be reflected in his play. Also someone from northern Europe will play in a different way then someone from south Europe. What we miss here in Europe is that "Blues" thing you have in the states. Another thing is that "Jazz" and "Blues" are common music in US, while *UNFORTUNATELY* Jazz is considered as a
kind of "elitist" thing here in Europe. Just my two cents...

Problem is, jazz has not always been a hybird music and a fusion of many different cultures.

I think the jury is still out on how flexible and adaptive jazz is.

I have given up on getting an answer to the question "What makes European Jazz special?"

That would take time and reflection.

Mike,

I hesitated to respond to this thread originally, and I'm afraid your very narrow view of what constitutes "jazz" makes any reasoned debate almost impossible. Just call it music. If you like it great, if you do not, do not listen to it.

Regards

Nic

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

The 10 discs Lontano cites all left me utterly and completely cold. The musicianship on these is very poor and the music is dull and boring ... Clearly a case of "In taste, there can be no dispute ..."

I couldn't agree more that in taste there can be no dispute. Except that we're not talking about taste. You seem an intelligent person, yet utterly incapable of distinguishing between your taste and all else.

The music left you cold? Fine, no argument.

The musicianship on these is very poor? Absolutely not.

An ignorant statement like that only serves to betray your profound lack of understanding of what constitutes musicianship, despite that you clearly think the opposite is the case.

You asked for straight, honest answers ... there's one.

quote:

Originally posted by irwan shah:

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I listened to quite a bit of ECM (10 discs) a few months back. That is concluded and will not be re-visited.

Mike I find it very strange that you would start a thread on European Jazz when you gave a few European Jazz discs a listen, dismissed them quickly and do not want to revisit them - in great contrast to the way you repetitively listen to the same old piece of classical music over and over again.

Just for the record, these are the ten discs. Six of them are on ECM. Not much new age there in my books - the closest being Jan Garbarek which is influenced by Norwegian folk music.

E.S.T. - From Gagarins Point of View
E.S.T - Seven Days of Falling
Tomasz Stanko - Dark Eyes (ECM)
Tomasz Stanko - Lontano (ECM)
Jan Garbarek - I Took Up The Runes (ECM)
Tord Gustavsen - The Ground (ECM)
Tord Gustavsen - Being There (ECM)
Lars Danielsson - Tarantella
Enrico Rava - Easy Living (ECM)
Benedikt Jahnel - Modular Concepts

I agree with everything Fred has said - he is doing a great job of trying to correct some of the many inaccuracies and misunderstandings in what you write.

I had decided that I could not be bothered to make a reply to this thread as whatever any one writes it is always wrong in the eyes of the OP, but there you go I changed my mind.

I have to agree with Adrian on this. Most of the albums on the list are simply wonderful. I love listening to them and just cannot get enough of it.

Fully concur. I was listening on my iPod on a flight the other day and listened to "The Ground". The music moved me to tears. You know, in a good way. Not in the way that Mike would be moved to tears by the same music .

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Like it or not, jazz is first and foremost a tale of the African-American experience. Others play jazz, but they don't have a fundamental "reason for being" in their music.

When you move an art form away from it's core, the music whithers and dies.

So it goes.

I'm definately not the only one that feels this way.

Then you should have titled the thread - "There is no such thing as European Jazz - Discuss". And your first post should have said - "I want to start and argument here".

Christ, you knew the (your?) answer before you started. You KNEW that REAL Jazz is only legitimately played in New Orleans in cramped venues filled with smoke and the smell of hard liquor. Or something like that. Probably.

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

The 10 discs Lontano cites all left me utterly and completely cold. The musicianship on these is very poor and the music is dull and boring ... Clearly a case of "In taste, there can be no dispute ..."

I couldn't agree more that in taste there can be no dispute. Except that we're not talking about taste. You seem an intelligent person, yet utterly incapable of distinguishing between your taste and all else.

The music left you cold? Fine, no argument.

The musicianship on these is very poor? Absolutely not.

An ignorant statement like that only serves to betray your profound lack of understanding of what constitutes musicianship, despite that you clearly think the opposite is the case.

You asked for straight, honest answers ... there's one.

In those albums, the beat is never "alive". Zero forward momentum. AKA, no swing.

If moving on to the next level of musical understanding means accepting Zero Momentum, then I reject it.

Music isn't supposed to make you impatient, wondering "When will the main theme make an appearance?" or "Christ, when will this be over?"

It isn't unreasonable to expect some structure. And you shouldn't have to work too much at perceiving that structure.

Remember we are talking about music that is played in clubs, where drinks are served.

That is this music's birthright.

I spent and still spend some time in fake books. I look things up, when there is an itch to scratch. Some of the melodies are beautiful. They have a distinctive and gorgeous rhythm. Those are wonderful melodies. Some performers, like Monk, preserve that rhythmic signature throughout. When they get that right, man oh man what a thing it is.

The 10 albums under discussion, they never do these things. Or they do it in such an over-engineered way, that you miss it without a debriefing. Or at least they sound that way to me.

This is a matter of no small concern to me, as I truly love music. That's why I lavished time and attention on this issue for months.

But sometimes the performer just has it wrong.

Or does that never happen?

Mike - is your metronome having a hard keeping up? Is it confused?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

These bands [on the 10 discs] would play to empty clubs in New Orleans ...

... the European Jazz discs are making the rounds in the musicians' community here in New Orleans ... I expect some will feel as I do, some will shrug it off, and it will set some on fire, they love it so much.

So which is it? The NOLA clubs will be empty, or will they be filled with those who have been set on fire by the discs?

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

These bands [on the 10 discs] would play to empty clubs in New Orleans ...

... the European Jazz discs are making the rounds in the musicians' community here in New Orleans ... I expect some will feel as I do, some will shrug it off, and it will set some on fire, they love it so much.

So which is it? The NOLA clubs will be empty, or will they be filled with those who have been set on fire by the discs?

OK Fred. I wouldn't be in those clubs. But others might well be.

When you stop being pissed off because you were questioned, answer my immediately previous post, if you would, and thank you.

I am well aware that there will be music I don't understand. No one knows that better than me.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

European Jazz, what makes it special?

Barbara Thompson.

This one's new to me?

Any particular CD?

Thompson's Tangos and Other Soft Dances

"In the past few years, Tango seems to have gently invaded my life" says Barbara Thompson. "Several press articles and a couple of films alerted me to this extraordinary musical tradition, which seemed to share many of the things I love about jazz and contemporary music. "The feelings and the rhythms floated around in my head and kept returning to haunt me. Thompson's Tangos are the inevitable result." Featuring Billy Thompson, Peter Lemer, Dave Ball and Jon Hiseman

Hope you like it - there are lots of samples of Barabara Thompson on YouTube.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

In those albums, the beat is never "alive". Zero forward momentum. AKA, no swing.

No, I'm sorry, you're wrong. Like I said, if you don't like the music, fine. But the "beat is never alive" on Garbarek's I Took Up the Runes? Ludicrous. The drummer on that album, Manu Katché, has "zero forward momentum, no swing"?! Beyond ludicrous.

quote:

Music isn't supposed to make you impatient, wondering "When will the main theme make an appearance?" ... It isn't unreasonable to expect some structure. And you shouldn't have to work too much at perceiving that structure.

You can't hear the main themes on the Garbarek, Gustavsen, Stanko, and Rava albums?! You can't hear structure in those, either?! Then you either can't hear extremely obvious melody and structure, or you haven't actually listened with attention. I find the former unlikely given your familiarity with classical music, so it must be the latter.

quote:

Remember we are talking about music that is played in clubs, where drinks are served.

That is this music's birthright.

This is so far beyond the pale, I can hardly begin to address it. You somehow have the misconception that jazz musicians have historically been completely cool with playing in smoke laden, noisy clubs, where the cash register regularly interrupts their most intimate ballad phrases, where half or more of the audience thinks it's their right to talk over the music as if they were in their own home, where the musicians are paid shit ... in other words, they dig playing in venues that disrespect the music and musicians in myriad ways, because, hey, man ... jazz isn't for concert halls, this ain't serious art, y'all stay in those shitty clubs where you belong! That's this music's supposed birthright?!

quote:

... sometimes the performer just has it wrong.

This statement, in the context of the many other similar things you've said here, reminds me of nothing more than a line in the film Dead Ringers, in which one of the mad brothers defends his mutant gynecological instruments: "There's nothing the matter with the instrument! It's the body! The woman's body was all wrong!"

Please don't make me repeat for the nth time, Mike, that you have every right in the world to not dig the music ... more power to you, god speed!

But if you don't hear forward momentum, swing, obvious main themes and structure in those albums, it doesn't mean that it's not there, it means you can't hear it. In other words, there's nothing wrong with the woman's body.

More straight, honest answers for you.

That's what I thought. It never happens.

Now I have my answer.

End of thread.