European J***, what makes it special?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

When you stop being pissed off because you were questioned, answer my immediately previous post, if you would, and thank you.

Oh, no, I'm not pissed off because I was questioned ... you think that's what it is? No, it's obstinate ignorance and intolerance that raises my hackles. I welcome questions, especially when asked for "straight and honest" answers, but you don't like the answers and then compound the ignorance and intolerance.

As far as answering your "immediately previous post," I already did. But perhaps you meant this one from about five or six posts back:

In plain English and without citing any recordings, what is "a pronounced European Jazz sensibility"?

That I can answer, although I'm not sure what you mean by "plain English" ... it's all I've used here.

In general (there are always exceptions) a European jazz sensibility often has a less pronounced blues factor than most traditional American jazz, and, conversely, a more pronounced Western classical music component, especially the chamber music aesthetic.

Often there is less emphasis on the swing-8th-note feel (specific terminology, not the broader perception of musical/rhythmic "swing"), and more emphasis on the straight-8th-note feel. By the way, all good music, no matter the genre, swings in the non-specific sense.

In much (but certainly not all) of the music that adheres to the "classic" ECM aesthetic (and while, to be sure, there is much European jazz that doesn't adhere to that aesthetic, it is one of the dominant strains) there is often a more pronounced use of space, both in the general density of notes (i.e., fewer notes), and in the sonic context of the music as a whole (i.e., more spacious reverberation), as well as a high premium on subtlety, a "cooler" temperature, implication versus overt statement, and a general feeling of "less is more."

There often may be a higher premium put on traditional Western classical intonation and ensemble blend.

There often may be a less rigid (as in insistent, not stiff) sense of groove, often employing what is termed a broken-8th-note feel ... "broken" not in the sense of needing to be fixed, but an improvisational shifting along the continuum between a swing-8th-note feel and a straight-8th-note feel. Among leading exemplars of this technique are drummers Tony Williams, Roy Haynes, Jack DeJohnette, Paul Motian and Jon Christensen.

And often the European jazz sensibility will incorporate elements of indigenous folk musics, as well as aspects of musics from other, non-Western, cultures around the world.

This is a decidedly skeleton description, and as I said, there are many exceptions to these very general points. But it's not a bad place to start.

quote:

I am well aware that there will be music I don't understand. No one knows that better than me.

As I've said, and as I thought you understood, lack of understanding is fine ... the problem is making half-cocked (or even quarter-cocked) pronouncements about jazz being a dead language, or that Garbarek, Stanko, Rava, et al, exhibit "poor musicianship," etc. Thousands of jazz musicians would be glad to tell you how wrong you are.

Hope this helps, like they say.

Cu'mon Fred, you should be composing and performing music, and not messing about on a hifi forum ...

Tsck, tsck!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

Problem is, jazz has not always been a hybird music and a fusion of many different cultures.

I think the jury is still out on how flexible and adaptive jazz is.

This is a prime example of what rankles me, Mike ... this is factually, objectively, wrong, period. Jazz was a hybrid music from its very inception, and has remained so ever since. It has adapted extremely well to the music of other cultures (various Latin musics, for instance), as well as to other genres ... it is incredibly flexible.

When you say "the jury is still out," do you mean the jury consisting of yourself, or do you mean a lack of wide consensus? If the latter, again, you are just plain wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

Cu'mon Fred, you should be composing and performing music, and not messing about on a hifi forum ...

Tsck, tsck!

Well, George, there are so many ways I could answer this, foremost of which is: what do you do in your spare time?

Also, keep in mind that I do teach music at the university level, so it's kind of in my blood.

But, actually, in recent weeks I've been composing two pieces: a standalone piece for small jazz ensemble in preparation for a concert in July, and a musical setting of a Robert Creeley poem, which I've almost finished with plans already in place to start on another. Believe me, nothing could keep me from that, which is also one reason I'm often up until 4 AM!

Maybe the best answer, though, is the punchline of one of my favorite jokes ... here's one version of it:


Bert and Morry are two elder gentlemen who meet at the park every Tuesday morning to feed bread crumbs to the pigeons and visit.

Bert: How are you today?

Morry: Fine … and you?

Bert: Fine. I have a new hobby.

Morry: Really? What is it?

Bert: I collect bees.

Morry: Really? Do you have hives in the yard that you keep to harvest the honey?

Bert: No, I just keep them in a jar in the closet.

Morry: A jar? Do you poke holes in the lid?

Bert: No … should I?

Morry: Of course! If you don’t poke holes, the bees will die!

Bert: Well, that’s okay … it’s only a hobby.



And there, George, is the answer: posting on the forum is only a hobby!

Like I said, what's your hobby?

All best,
Fred

Mike,

let me make my final posting to this somehow strange thread, that started with a question.
The topic is complex and as you see there are many opinions. I think that if you want an answer to your question and also understand what was going on in this thread I can only suggest to read Mile's Autobiography. There you will find some answers. Miles is so right. There you will also find why there is such a difference between yours (and to a large extend also my) point of view and the others.

Having said that: One thing I really respect in life is diversity in opinions and acceptance of that. This is an axiomatic thing for me.

Now to ECM: Long time ago, I was a teenager I think, some people told me about ECM records. I wanted to listen to Jazz and as I started to listen *and* nothing happened. Music left me cold. I stared even thinking: Damn' what is this ?. So the best thing what happened to me was forgetting to return the records. After a while I wanted to listen to some non Jazz music. I put the ECM records on and bang: I loved the stuff. Now obviously there were different expectation to the music I wanted to listen the first and the second time.

Postscript :

For the past few years, I have been trying to expand my musical horizons, and have used my limited musical skills to try and understand what I am listening to.

Classical is the easiest to do this with, because of the existance of scores. With a score, you can take as many hours as you need to work something out. It is probably true that I take hours to figure something out that a real musician would get on first hearing. I have time for this, so it's ok.

With jazz, post 1970, it mostly flies over my head, and there is no crutch to fall back on like a score. Much 20th century classical music is also over my head.

I don't know what I am going to do about this. I could simply accept my limitations and avoid music too dense for me to penetrate. I suppose I could go back to class and develop more music skills. I'm 60, and don't know if I want to make the committment to return to class.

I'll have to think on this to decide how to move forward.

Thanks for the input Fred, even if I did get you angry. This is important to me.

People often get angry because they care. FWIW, I think Fred has contributed some fine comments and knowledge on this thread. Thanks.

Absolutely agreed on Freds comments. A great musician and with your comments you have elucidated sentiments that I have, but could never voice so intelligently.

ECM jazz, EST, are all some of my favourite labels / bands at present. I love the feel, the space, this music evoke, nd the obvious musicianship.

Mike, if Dixie / N'orlins style jazz is what you like then good for you, but to be honest it gives me the pips.

Fred, thanks for hipping me to Jonatha. I now have everything she's recorded.

I think the forum has help me sort out the music I really love, from the music that doesn't suit me.

These consist of :

All New Orleans music.
From Bach through Stravinsky.
Music from the Middle Ages and Renissance.
Pre 1970 American Jazz, back as far as Louis Armstrong.
Tower of Power, Earth, Wind and Fire, and Stevie Wonder.
A smattering of others.

I spend a good deal of time trying to memorize the themes from these works at the moment :

Bach WTC
Chopin Preludes
Debussy Preludes
Haydn Trios

When that has been accomplished, I will try to do the same for other works.

It's a substitute for practice, as I stopped playing a few years ago.

Don't know how much posting I'll be doing from here on out, I've said everything I wanted to air out, my system has been upgraded to the level I am satisfied with, and my interests are fairly narrow.

I see myself as narrow minded about music, after seeing the variety of music people enjoy here on the forum. Finally I am willing and able to accept that. Better to be what you are, then try to be someone else. After all, it is harmless.

I will still come to read every day, and may have an occasional comment to make. If so, I will make every effort to stay mild and friendly.

Thanks to George, for putting me onto Bach and Haydn. Thanks to Dan Carney for putting me onto Blechacz and Zimerman. Thanks to Fred Simon for his patience, and for putting my feet back on the ground. Thanks to Geoff P for putting me onto Angelia Hewitt. Thanks to everyone for filling many hours with pleasure.

Looking forward to reading some good music threads in future :-)

Mike,

Sounds like you are in a much better place now. After reading your padded cell thread I felt guilty for being brusque with you, so sorry for that. Each to their own, enjoy your listening, and I hope your family and environmental circumstances start to improve soon.

Regards

Nic