Pope dies.

The Roman Catholic Church has always changed its Doctrine to suit political will at the time.


Priests were even allowed to marry and have children at one time.

So the concept of Celibacy in Priesthood is NEW.

Trouble is man is fallible and the priesthood has a long histor of sexual problems .

So perhaps the next (Italian) POPE could look at some of the absurdities and make the priesthood (male and female) more relevant to todays society .

On the issue of Homo Sexuality i feel that one should abhor the sin but forgive the sinner.

This point of view is not acceptable today .

So how do we provide a relevant moral structure for todays society if the arbiters of the moral high ground fail so miserably in their own conduct.

I find one issue regarding his death interesting.

He resigned himself to GOD's will . ie no more medical intervention and his wishes were respected and he duly died.

His life could have been artificailly maintained through medical technology for some time longer.

So the hipocracy, over the recent withdrawal of artificial feeding for a person in a Persistant vegetatve state, from the religious bigots is frankly WEIRD.

It is OK for the POPE to elect to stop medical care but not ok for you and i if we feel it desireable to do so.

Life is full of interesting choices.

regards David

I'm not a Catholic or particularily religious and as such I feel no more for the pope dying that I would for any other elderly person passing away. I'll feel exactly the same when the queen of England dies.

I'd like to hope (but I'm not overly optimistic) that a new pope will change some of the more problematic and destructive areas of their doctrine - celibacy of priests, contraception, the insistence on sectarian schooling of Catholic children being examples.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve G:
I'd like to hope (but I'm not overly optimistic) that a new pope will change some of the more problematic and destructive areas of their doctrine - celibacy of priests, contraception, the insistence on sectarian schooling of Catholic children being examples.

Oh I wouldn't raise your hopes. Catholicism can be every bit as freaky as... as... well, some other religions one gets into trouble for talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
The Roman Catholic Church has always changed its Doctrine to suit political will at the time.

And it will do it in the next years again to hide the hunger for "land" of our so called politicians.
A point to the last Pope is that he declared loud that war in Irak is not a religious war.
He's the only one who tried to search for the dialogue with others religions.

quote:

Trouble is man is fallible and the priesthood has a long histor of sexual problems

Prohibitions are a part of the system.
It's to keep people in knees.

quote:

So perhaps the next (Italian) POPE could look at some of the absurdities and make the priesthood (male and female) more relevant to todays society

I hope the next will be not italian.
I hope an african pope.
The world risks to have a pope deploied on those who think that the better way to solve problems is to search for "the smoking gun" even when there's none.

quote:

On the issue of Homo Sexuality i feel that one should abhor the sin but forgive the sinner.

That kind of forgiveness is worst than punishement.
It's slightly more humbling and aggressive.

quote:

So how do we provide a relevant moral structure for todays society if the arbiters of the moral high ground fail so miserably in their own conduct.

Most of all how can they provide a moral structure when doing it means to generate hate and condemnation calling down curses upon those they consider somehow different than a mass produced cultured ones?

quote:

His life could have been artificailly maintained through medical technology for some time longer.
So the hipocracy, over the recent withdrawal of artificial feeding for a person in a Persistant vegetatve state, from the religious bigots is frankly WEIRD.

It would be interesting to hear their point of wiev on this case almost.

quote:

It is OK for the POPE to elect to stop medical care but not ok for you and i if we feel it desireable to do so.

This is cultural relativism.
And they don't like it.

quote:

Life is full of interesting choices.

I agree.
But letting people decide means loosing power.

Thanks for post.
Gianluigi

An elderly gentleman passed away despite media/medical input etc. A lot of people thought well of him, and some think that with his uniform when he was younger he might have helped reduce e.g. AIDS in Africa/help women become more dominant than they are/help flush out paedophiles/apologize for RC ignoring Herr Hitler's nastiness. He probably was a good egg.

Perhaps my only real disappointment at the death of the poop is that he will not be going to endless suffering at the hands of his real master for the damage he has caused to this world while MD of RC.com.

But one may hope.

Nime

quote:

Originally posted by Nime:

But one may hope.

Nime

Despair springs eternal.

Nime

The saddest thing is we allow a moron like you to vote.

You really are a sad cynical asshole.

That man has meant more to most people in one day of his life than what a tosser like you means in his entire lifetime and you wish him endless sufferring.

You are a sick animal and I despair for you.

No regards

Mick

Mick,
I'm aware that we do not agree on too many subjects very often, and in general terms, this is going to be another of that caliber, But your unfortunate choice of language in this instance has unfortunatly placed you in the same camp as some of the "newer" members here .For my own 2pennysworth I would in general agree with Nime but I would like to think that I would have chosen a slightly more flowery way of explaining myself, and would not have put it quite so succinctly. It always seems a little strange to me that those people who, are forever telling the rest of us what a wonderful place the hereafter is, always fight like hell to make sure they stay here amoung the lesser mortals as long as possible, and "NO" expense spared in the attempt.He was a old reactionary who should not be missed. He did very little for either the extremly poor people he claimed to represent, apart from helping them to stay in total poverty by taking what little money they had, or world peace,you do not just, need bullets and bombs to be able to kill Tens of Thousands of people, there are much more subtle ways of achieving the same results,No, he was just another one of the worlds despots, but with just a differant "political" agenda to most of them.

oldie.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Nime
The saddest thing is we allow a moron like you to vote.
You really are a sad cynical asshole.
That man has meant more to most people in one day of his life than what a tosser like you means in his entire lifetime and you wish him endless sufferring.
You are a sick animal and I despair for you.
No regards
Mick

Mick - this post falls well below a standard that you have set for yourself and others.
I will put it down to an excess of Earl Grey but can delete it if you reconsider and decide it was over-intemperate.

Adam

Just re read what that revolting little man wrote.

I stand by every word I say and you should ban him from ever posting again. What he said was offensive in every moral sense and the man has the scruples of a sewer rat.

I am not a Catholic but I would never dream of posting what he said. Can you imagine how any Catholic reading that stuff will feel.

If one word of my response is changed or deleted, I clear off for good.

Regards

Mick

Oldie

No one is preventing you from ctiticising the Pope. What I find obscene is Nime can wish him endless suffering.

The man is repellant.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
but can delete it if you reconsider and decide it was over-intemperate.

Stet.

I was pointing out that you often state that an argument carried out via invective is a lost argument.

I would rather we responded to the written content of posts - rather than our limited perception of the poster.

It is rather weak to 'sincerely' wish anybody endless suffering 'whoever they may be', I did note though Mick me old tosh, that all the endless suffering wished upon a certain cretin called King wasn't commented upon by you once, innit.

Fritz Von Swings & Roondaboots

Adam

I have re read my posting and consider it an accurate description of the man.

I just hope he has the decency to apologise for it.

Regards

Mick

i remind you Mick that you once advocated the carpet bombing of Iraqis so we could have cheaper petrol.

Glass houses and all.

Matthew

PS I agree though, standards have dropped since the padded cell became full of people who were glad all the other lot were banned becuase they always caused argumetns.

As said before the bloke was responsible for possibly many thousands of deaths of men women and children due to STUPID and DUMB attitudes towards sexual health - therefore I for one am glad he’s gone to were ever he thinks he going. Last year there was an excellent panorama prog that summed it up better than I could.
I quote:
The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."

The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend.

In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

Harry,

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "esoteric" Middle Eastern religions?

Cheers,

Jon

Islam, Christianity and their spin offs Jon. Both comparatively young, both bloody weird IMO and both from the same region. Bigger theological brains than mine will doubtless argue the differences, but looked at from a distance they are offering different flavours of essentially the same thing. If one has a problem with what people are doing in the names of these religions, that’s a different discussion entirely and not really the fault of the religion. In our age Islam has the bad rep. Go back a few hundred years to see how the Christians got to where they are today.

Peace Man.

Oh for "$£&% sake:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4406453.stm

I personally think that the Mother of the poor lassie who was gunned down in cold blood by morons last year in Sheffield (Yet to be apprehended) is far more worthy than 'ANY' Hypocrytical so-called religious leader by 'Publically Forgiving those responsible" as unlike others it wasn't her Duty to do so, she did it with a pure heart and a mind to stop more violence, now that demands respect², innit.

Fritz Von Suffer little children come unto me

quote:

Originally posted by Martin D:
Oh for "$£&% sake:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4406453.stm

Could be worse, at least we haven't had "he was the people's pope......"


On a more serious note, I don't feel sad about the death of the pope in the slightest, it's no different to me than any of the other old people who die daily whom I've never met. I don't think it's especially sad when someone of that age dies, after a long, and in the main, happy life.

I do, however, object to the level of coverage we have to have about this in the media. I also object to the virtual beatification that seems to be going on at the moment, with regard to the pope. He, like Reagan recently, seems to have been responsible for the fall of communism, a role that I think is significantly overstated. But, what is worse is that, in my (admittedly somewhat unpopular view) this was a rather unpleasant and (in many respects) unchristian man. I found a lot of his views, particularly on such subjects as women priests and homosexuality in general absolutely sickening and I find the dishonest stance of on condoms (which is probably killing a great many people in the developing world) utterly indefensible. A great man. Sorry, I don't think so, and I think the evidence simply isn't there. That's not to say I'm glad to see him gone, I'm not glad when anyone dies, and I certainly don't think there's much prospect of getting anyone better, but I'm not going to shed a tear for the man.

I also think, more generally that the catholic church is a pretty excellent example of the ills of theocracy. It's an institution that for centuries has stood against the advancement of knowledge, because knowledge diminishes its power and contradicts its dogma. I think any organisation that claims to have the absolute truth, be it catholicism or any other religion, is dangerous. Still, at least we can look forward to the spectacle of the selection of a new pope (though quite why, if it's the decision of god, it tends to take so many rounds of voting, I don't know).


regards,

Tam

Dear All,

On the matter of Contraception and the Catholic Church.

I do not understand the stance that the prevention of conception is a far more

HEINOUS CRIME

than allowing the Child to be concieved and then

BORN

to die from any number of revolting things such as

starvation
lack of water
lack of sanitation
a wide variety of poverty related awfulness

etc etc

Tha Catholic Church must be one of the richest organisations in the world and yet is quite prepared to let its subjects die in their millions.

The Abrahamic faiths have a simple set of ten

God Given Rules by which to live.

It is shame that most world religions do not endorse / adopt these 10 simple rules.

It seems that when it comes to murder to indirectly/directly cause a death due to religious fervour is a guarantee of a place in heaven.

hence the reason one or two have suggested that the Pope may be heading south and not to Nirvanah.

On the tv it seems many wish to Sanctify him .

This could lead to further problems.

As for an African Pope !!!!!!

Look at Africa and ask oneself is Africa ready for this responsibility?

regards David

quote:

than allowing the Child to be concieved and then

BORN

to die from any number of revolting things

Italian catholics don't have this problems.

quote:

The Abrahamic faiths have a simple set of ten God Given Rules by which to live.
It is shame that most world religions do not endorse / adopt these 10 simple rules.

Seems that exeptions are more than rules.

quote:

It seems that when it comes to murder to indirectly/directly cause a death due to religious fervour is a guarantee of a place in heaven.

Or a place in the heaven of heores.
The transfer is osmotic.

quote:

On the tv it seems many wish to Sanctify him .

TVs are ruled by politicians or vatican.
It's a very rich dish to be left aside.

quote:

This could lead to further problems.

I.e. "opus dei".

quote:

As for an African Pope !!!!!!
Look at Africa and ask oneself is Africa ready for this responsibility?

Maybe the only way to make them face the problem is to let them put the face in.
Anyway better than a spanish or italian or north american pope.

Gianluigi

Parry

Rest assured I thought long and hard about posting a comparison between RC.com's MD with Hitler.
I didn't post at first out of respect to those who still harbour some sympathy for the old fool.

I also decided after careful reflection that the comparison was unworthy. Since the poop was probably responsible for far more deaths and infinitely more human suffering worldwide than the other POS could ever manage.

Study the statistics of African girls with HIV. Just think about this for just a moment. If you can. Ask yourself what part the poop played in this awful tragedy in the name of stone age superstition and the maintenance of RC power.

When you have finished weeping for humanity squandered by one deluded, but incredibly powerful old man. Then come back and apologise to me for your gross error of understanding of the sheer magnitude of his gross missuse of power in the sickly accumulation of wealth for his .com.

You want "flowery"?

Start here if you are the true ignoramous that your posts so obviously suggest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4052531.stm

http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/aidsstat.htm

http://www.pgaf.org/pressreleases/south_africa_stats.html

Are you suggesting this unbelievably vast human tragedy doesn't matter simply because they are black and they aren't your immediate family or neighbours?

But perhaps even I have grossly underestimated your callous disregard for other human beings?
I hesitate to use the term "fellow human beings" in your particular case.

Nime

Nime

Your are not just a wanker, you are a totally unprincipled scumbag.

Just do me a favour, do not ever talk to me or about me and I will return the favour.