Institutional racism at the BBC

The BBC is a reflection of British Society.
Both have racist facets, but IME the same could be said for most British institutions.
Does seem to me Clarkson & Co really try hard to provoke viewers.
How would Auntie react if she received a similar complaint form someone with Romany ancestry?
I suspect very differently!

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

It seems pretty obvious to me that perhaps the measure of offensiveness should not be what the people speaking (or who think it legitimate to speak) the 'word' consider to be acceptable, but the acceptability of the 'word' (or not) to the people of the racial or ethnic group it refers to.

This is an excellent way of summing it all up. Treat others how you expect to be treated works too. But there are a few loopholes in my aphorism.

A feeble response by the BBC to your very commendable statement. I am with you 100%. When I hear the N word over here, even sometimes from my own brother-in-law I will voice my displeasure. He usually shrugs and says "It was a joke!" but I dont accept that BS in my earshot. I know that lots of african american comedians use the N word, and I am not crazy about that either but that is a little enigmatic. Actually I had a minor run in with someone on this very forum who I felt was bragging about using a derogatory term for an ethnic group. The excuse was something like, well they called me this so I called them that. Makes me boil. Well done for speaking up.

I recall Martin Brundle on ITV's F1 programme referring to pikeys tarmacing part of a circuit - seemed to go almost unnoticed.

JWM

I'm not trying to start a fight over this but this does seem like political correctness taken too far IMO.

John M

Seems like an eminently sensible reply from the BBC as I for one didn't find the use of the word pikey objectionable.

That doesn't mean that I find the use of the word nigger acceptable although many African Americans use it as greeting do they not? So it seems OK for them to use it among themselves?

One of my friends at college was from Nigeria and I often used to greet him with a "hey [his name] you black bastard" and his reply was invariably "hey honky". Both of us knew we were taking the piss out of racism....heaven forbid if we were to do something that politically incorrect today.

Cheers

Jim

Well said, Jim. One must take into account the speaker's intentions rather than only their actions.

Jim

Jim

I dont want to start a fight either, so let's start with - I appreciate your point of view. I think its an interesting discussion, and my response is just my point of view, not an attack on you at all.

Although it is JWM who made the opinion that I was supporting, I hope I am not out of turn when I say that I think JWMs point was that even though YOU dont mind the use of the word pikey, it matters how THEY feel about it. And as I said, and think you agree, the N word in the US is enigmatic. I am not really qualified to explain, but I am sure you understand the difference between nigger and nigga? Working in US big city public schools and group homes for years, I learned the difference. I dont like either one, but they are very different. Regardless, I know of no african or carribean americans who are alright with being called nigger by anyone. IMO it is all about power, and especially here in the US, the relationship of oppressed and oppressor.

I love humor that skillfully points out the absurdity of racism or uses stereotypes to show their harmfulness/uselessness (Dave Chappelle, Spike Lee etc.) (Tropic Thunder is a pretty interesting movie for that recently.) I totally get your joking with your friend, and have had similar relationships when I was much younger, but these are relationships of equal power. I guess you are saying the same about relationship of Clarkson and Hammond on Top Gear, and it could be so in real life. But in public forums I think it becomes a message that can influence susceptible minds and really serve to legitimatize the use of such words in general. I guess we could go onto a whole discussion of constitutional rights, etc, because I get that you are talking about freedom of speech that 'political correctness' can threaten if taken too far. I do appreciate that. And what the hell, if we can't make each other laugh at ourselves, then I dont think I am long for this world...

PS - Just wondering what you thought/were you aware of the whole s*%$ storm caused by Don Imus when call the Rutgers women's basketball team "nappy headed hos" on his nationally syndicated talk show. I am really not trying to bait you , just curious to hear your opinion on that?

Cheers

John

John

quote:

nigger and nigga

Yes I get the difference between the two but one begat the other and the spelling and pronunciation could be argued to be something a semantic point depending on your point of view.

I agree fully on the point about the oppressed and oppressor but the use of the word pikey, which can clearly be a derogatory term in certain circumstances, in no way shape or form is on a par with the use of the word nigger when also used in a derogatory context.

As for

quote:

I guess we could go onto a whole discussion of constitutional rights, etc, because I get that you are talking about freedom of speech that 'political correctness' can threaten if taken too far.

No, that's not what I was getting at TBH. I just feel that we take the whole political correctness thing way too far these days and even the use of the phrase African American could be argued to be too PC. I see nothing wrong in using the term "black community" as opposed African American community as long black isn't used in a derogatory context.

Do any of these statements make me a racist?

Cheers

Jim

PS

quote:

And what the hell, if we can't make each other laugh at ourselves, then I dont think I am long for this world...

Absolutely

John

quote:

"nappy headed hos

TBH, I had no idea what a nappy headed ho was (well I knew the ho part) at the time although by implication it couldn't be good. I had no problem with the nappy headed part but the Ho piece was wrong on many, many levels.

I think Imus was totally out of order and he paid the penalty but I did find the shock value of it to be somewhat amusing and his subsequent apology genuine.

Off to grab some sleep now but since you are two hours behind me I'm sure I'll find a response in the morning!

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
John

quote:

nigger and nigga

Yes I get the difference between the two but one begat the other and the spelling and pronunciation could be argued to be something a semantic point depending on your point of view.

It seems to be that one is a slur, the other has almost become an idiom, unfortunately.

quote:

the word pikey, which can clearly be a derogatory term in certain circumstances, in no way shape or form is on a par with the use of the word nigger when also used in a derogatory context.

I must admit that I am not familiar enough with the word and useage. Sorry if I assumed a bit too much.

As for black vs. african american, that is a whole conversation, and I agree with you about the term black community, but in general I think labels are inherently clumsy and can be tedious, and much worse, dangerous.

quote:

Do any of these statements make me a racist?

Come, now. Are you crowning me the king of all political correctness. I abdicate immediately!!

Are you still awake Munch!?!?!

Those were damn funny movies. And skillfully done. Chris Rock is genius. Again, my point about power. It does get very tricky though. As I heard it said, opinions are like a&*holes, everyone's got one!!!

We gotta skype soon. How is the back?

A question.

What is meant by Carribean American ?

Are you referring to the Indigenous Carribean or a person of African heritage who is from the Carribean.

regards David

Just a point JWM, would you have made this complaint if it were not for the current general displeasure with Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross?
Wasn't there a huge uproar when Martin Brundle commented on pikey's tarmaccing a corner of an F1 track? Did you complain to ITV then? However, Clarkson must have know that he would get the same response by using the term.

Anyway, I thought pikey referred to the new age travellers that sprung up in the early 90's - (people who opted out of society and were generally associated with thefts, crime and leaving the lay-by they stayed at looking like the local recycling centre.....)not the traditional Romany or Gypsy?
It seems that the public seems particularly sensitive to ANY sort of comment these days.

quote:

One must take into account the speaker's intentions rather than only their actions.

Reasonable point Jim, but as John has pointed out ...

quote:

... it matters how THEY feel about it

The BBC's Bullying & Harassment policy (for internal staff issues) states the intention of the perpetrator is irrelevant. What matters is how the victim is made to feel by the actions of the perpetrator. That seems fundamentally just to me.

quote:

... the use of the word pikey, which can clearly be a derogatory term in certain circumstances, in no way shape or form is on a par with the use of the word nigger when also used in a derogatory context.

Romany folk find 'pikey' just as offensive as 'nigger' is to black folks, because they are both derogatory racist terms. I believe 'traveller' is the term Romany folk prefer.

quote:

I thought pikey referred to the new age travellers that sprung up in the early 90's

It did Jagster, but that was an evolution of language - NATs were living somewhat like traditional travellers.

Next week on Top Gear Jeremy, Richard & the other one leave obscene messages on Cliff Richards answer 'phone?

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
I recall Martin Brundle on ITV's F1 programme referring to pikeys tarmacing part of a circuit - seemed to go almost unnoticed.

Thank you for reminding me about this one. I didn't see it 'live' myself. But as I recall, it did get some news coverage (hence I knew about it) and he did actually get his hand slapped.

BBC news article following the Brundle debacle:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7446274.stm]How offensive is the word 'pikey'?

Would I have made this complaint were it not for the Brand-Ross debacle? Since I heard it with my own ears, yes.

Bandwagonning? no.

But it did seem especially crass of the BBC to let it through at the very time the mandarins were wringing their hands and going on about reviewing standards of acceptability.

James

Howard, the BBC article above outlines it all nicely. (It is NOT a pike-carrying soldier.)

Short extract (my emboldening):

quote:

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, its first use in print was in the Times in 1837, referring to strangers who had come to the Isle of Sheppey island to harvest. Later that century it meant a "turnpike traveller" or vagabond.

But in more recent years it has become a term of abuse and in the eyes of the law using it can even be deemed a racist offence, given its association with Irish travellers and Roma Gypsies.

In December, at Lewes Magistrates' Court, Lee Coleman, 28, admitted using racially-aggravated threatening words and behaviour after a row with a nightclub manageress. He had told her: "I'm not paying you, pikey."

Charlotte Brewer, Oxford University lexicographer, says the OED clearly labels it as an offensive term that came from the word "pike" meaning a road on which a toll is collected.

Etc.....

quote:

Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
A question.

What is meant by Carribean American ?

Are you referring to the Indigenous Carribean or a person of African heritage who is from the Carribean.

regards David

Interesting question. Since the middle passage included stop overs in the Caribbean Islands, there is alot of mixture of indigenous, colonials, and people of african descent over time. My point is that I dont use the word black to generalize for just anyone who has darker skin here in the US. It is clumsy and inapplicable, especially since it is the basis for racial classification that I do not support. In fact I just try to treat people as individually unique as I possibly can, but it takes alot of work!! People from DR or Cuba or where ever often have darker skin, but they are culturally different from people who were born grew up in the states and who are of african descent. SO Caribbean American to me differentiates from African American - it is an imperfect label for sure, but this is what I was getting at. I mentioned this just because I play on a football (soccer) team that has Jamaican, Haitian, Eritrean, Ethiopian, Sudanese, American, Mexican, Persian and Guyanese players of varying skin tones. I dont call any of them black. Playing football has helped teach me the nuances of culture and ethnicity.

quote:

Playing football has helped teach me the nuances of culture and ethnicity.

As well as the inside decor of the ER?

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:

quote:

Playing football has helped teach me the nuances of culture and ethnicity.

As well as the inside decor of the ER?

Yeah, that and the backside of my wife's hand (or her back in general, and I don't mean in the fun way)

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
I see nothing wrong in using the term "black community" as opposed African American community as long black isn't used in a derogatory context.

I think if you substitute the word 'black' for 'white' in this instance and see how that feels to you, it may put it in to perspective.

Is there a 'white community', or are there many different cultures and communities who happen to have white skin?

I think the closer we get to using the term 'black' merely as a descriptor in the same way we use 'blonde' or 'tall', the nearer we will be to an integrated society.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Chillkram:
Is there a 'white community', or are there many different cultures and communities who happen to have white skin?

If you don't mind, Mark, although you were replying to Jim, I think that is a really fascinating question. I remember one class I went to with a group called Undoing Racism from New Orleans and they asked us to identify white culture. People had real difficulty putting their finger on it. "Black" culture was easier and everyone could come up with examples. Their reasoning was that the mainstream, or from a power perspective in the US, "white" culture has not had to struggle and define itself because it has benefited from the unequal distribution of power afforded by racism. "black" culture has become much more defined, by this interpretation, as a result of oppression. In the struggle to survive, people who descended from slaves have circled their wagons, so to speak, and nurtured and protected customs, rituals, dialect etc. Thought provoking, no?

quote:

I think the closer we get to using the term 'black' merely as a descriptor in the same way we use 'blonde' or 'tall', the nearer we will be to an integrated society.

Hmmm. But what exactly does black describe to you? I am really interested to hear. The enigma to me is that it means so many different things to different people. Blonde and tall are much more objective terms? But being short, I prefer vertically challenged

John

quote:

Originally posted by John M:
"Black" culture was easier and everyone could come up with examples.

Well it was the phrase 'black community' I specifically took issue with, however I think there is a fundamental problem with the terms 'black culture' or 'white culture' and that is my point.

The defining characteristic of cultures is not skin colour but where people come from, their heritage, their customs, arts, beliefs, values etc.

To say there is a black community is to ignore the fact that there are many different communities to which black people belong.

If we single out African Americans as the black community where does that leave Caribbean Americans or newly migrated Africans? Or are these all the same community? Are they the same culture?

Equally, to say there is a white community is to pool the inhabitants of a trailer park in the South with those in Beverly Hills. I would think that each of those would struggle to identify the other as part of the same community although they might be considered as of the same culture.

I just think that it is too easy a label to use and encourages laziness in terms of actually trying to really understand what defines a culture and consequently means that we pigeonhole many rich and varied cultures simply as 'black'.

quote:

Hmmm. But what exactly does black describe to you? I am really interested to hear. The enigma to me is that it means so many different things to different people. Blonde and tall are much more objective terms? But being short, I prefer vertically challenged

I think that is a good point and raises another issue which is that we, again lazily, have a tendency to classify people who have even only a relatively small percentage of African genes as 'black', even when their skin tone may obviously be impossible to distinguish from 'white'. Hence my point that when the term is one which simply describes skin tone in the same way that blonde describes hair colour, the sooner we may be able to look past the surface and see the person underneath.

After all you rarely hear of discrimination against blondes! (No dumb blonde jokes here please!)

Regards

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Chillkram:

I just think that it is too easy a label to use and encourages laziness in terms of actually trying to really understand what defines a culture and consequently means that we pigeonhole many rich and varied cultures simply as 'black'.

Yep. A point I also made a while back.

Labels are inherently clumsy and offer only shortcuts to help us deal with complexity. I try really hard to keep it on an individual by individual basis. But I that exercise by the group from New Orleans really opened my eyes. The fact is that most people do use labels. And race is a labeling system that ties value and worth into skin color from its origin. The question for me is how to live in the middle of it and try to fight against it at the same time.

I find it really interesting that my kids refer to people by their skin tone at times. Coffee colored, pink, brown, dark, and it is really innocent and wonderful. They have not yet begun to be influenced by the social underpinnings of racial classification. But they will need to know and understand history or, as it is said, they may be doomed to repeat it.

Until you mentioned it I didn't know they had. I only really watch Grand Designs, River Cottage and the occasional rugby match.

From the same article has has been quoted:

"Ofcom said it had received seven complaints and ITV apologised to viewers"

Seven. Out of how many millions?

Given that seven people chose to complain they found this offensive, then it would seem to indicate that the vast majority of society does not consider this an offensive term or at least was not used by either as a means of being offensive. I am sure most would consider that if Martin or Jeremy had said n*gger, y*d, sp*ck or m*ng for instance (all of which were in far more common usage when I was a child in the seventies) then it would have been viewed differently as, if used, those words seem more likely to have been chosen to be more than unpleasant, given that society has determined that these words are assuredly offensive, having been used in conjunction with widescale violence and offence to the parties considered.

I don't believe for one minute that Martin or Jeremy set out to equate those being discussed with being lesser mortals in a literal sense. And you know what, I bet the overwhelming majority of people who saw/heard those agree with me about that.

I have found in life there are few occasions where it is easy to wholly define right and wrong in a complete sense applicable to all and any circumstance, for all time. Only reasonable and unreasonable. As in British Law. And being reasonable is usually defined by the current moral majority (for better or worse).

For instance, it is (IMO) unreasonable to walk up to a black guy in the street and shout "N*gger!" in his face. It was not unreasonable for Richard Pryor to adopt the word in his act. It was quite reasonable for Python to satirise "organised" society, religion and politics (usually on the grounds of hypocrisy) in their films, it is unreasonable to daub swastikas on Jewish graves.

Further, humour is usually at the expense of someone else. Whether an Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman, a member of the clergy, an older person, men, women, hebrews, muslims or Australians. I think it would be extremely dangerous to impose too many limits on what can or cannot be said in public. That is attacking core rights of freedom of speech and thought. Sure, if those words are used to deliberately incite violence and hate that's something else but I suspect it's always far easier to take commentary out of perspective and persecute after the event, especially if that person doesn't happen to have an entirely similar opinion, than to consider their own perspectives as being equally valid.

It is also easy for someone who has more hardlined views to use examples from other sources (whether Jeremy Clarkson or The Bible) as a means to justify their own actions if deliberately setting out to hurt others and acting unreasonably. For instance in attacking Travellers or anyone that doesn't share your own opinion. However, I do not think Jeremy of The Bible should be held accountable for the actions of bigots.