I've taken the Vinyl plunge....

Try it in the first system now.

--Eric

CDs won because they resulted from a Compact with the devil (according to Matt Groening).

Just as IBM beat Sperry, VHS beat Betamax, th ecar beat public transportation, and Microsoft beat OS/2, the CD beat the LP despite the technical superiority of the losing technology. All it took was marketing and prose;ytization by people who believed the hype.

AARGHH!

Phil

Barry

Back in the early/mid eighties, most of us owned cheap crappy turntables with cheap crappy amps and needles etc.

Most vinyl sounded snap crackle and pop whilst CD's sounded so clear in comparison especially at low volume.

You have to remember that a TT such a LP12 cost a fortune in those days and there was not the second hand bargins you have today.

In a strange sort of way, you younger guys have got it made. You can buy a good TT for peanuts and the world is your oyster.

We oldies have done you a favour, so start thanking us.

Regards

Mick

In the mid eighties the differences were even greater, the first wave of CD players were unlistenable IMO. Hype ruled the day and the 'pure perfect sound forever' bullshit stuck.

If it wasn't for a hard core group of vinyl heads who let their ears and not the phillips marketing machine dictate we would have struggled to keep vinyl alive. DJ's did their bit but audiophiles (whatever that means)and record collectors kept the fire burning.

I am sooooo glad to have kept faith while nearly all others chose the silver disk.

Don't get me wrong, my CDS1 is a real boogie
machine, it's just that with the right vinyl the music can be sublime.

I read this in an article a long while back, and the statistics convinced me: In the States at least, the cassette had pretty well killed off the LP by the time the CD showed up.
This was the heyday of ghetto blasters--cassettes and portable sound were a match made in hell. The average consumer had old LPs which he cleaned with a sweatshirt, and a stylus which was older than most schoolkids (as was the gob of goo stuck to the diamond). Maybe cassettes did sound better to the average Joe.

Welcome to the wonderful world of vinyl - it's cheaper to buy music too (as long as you buy mint secondhand) and as we all know it sounds better.

Have fun with it I will never ever sell the Gyrodec and the fun of browsing secondhand record shops is a joy compared to the walk in, buy what you want walk out convenience of CD's in a HMV megastore.

Analogue rules!

Jonathan

Nice one Afzal, i've been debating for months to go the LP12 route, but find the whole deal a bit daunting (catridges/tonearms/etc...)

naheed...

It really isn't any more complicated than crossovers, power supplies and Sound Stages.

...also offered the All-Empowering abilities to make your own mix, tape off the radio, and "share" music among your friends. I was slow to get a DVD player 'cause I knew that it would not *replace* the VCR. We "timeshift" alot to catch our favorite shows so the DVD player meant another box had to be added to the system.

I still have my favorite mix cassettes from my college days - I have a few classical tapes, pop tapes, "driving" tapes...a really neat way to "own" music.

We can sortof reproduce this now with burnable CDs, MP3s, etc. but, to me, a cassette *made from a decent turntable* can be much more satisfying.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Mick

quote:

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Back in the early/mid eighties, most of us owned cheap crappy turntables with cheap crappy amps and needles etc.

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Mine was LP12/Ittok/Linn Trak 42/110...so you got the needle right!!!

Actually you are spot on when you say that most vinyl sounded snap crackle and pop whilst CD's sounded so clear in comparison especially at low volume - on most people's systems. The lack of crap appealed rather than the quality.

Even with a decent TT/arm/cartridge the quality of the vinyl/pressings was poor as the eighties progressed - almost as if some people had given up on records. Some were very good but alot were dire. How many records from that era do you play regularly?

Sproggle

Derek Whittington (who sold me my first LP12) cannot be praised highly enough.

Chris
Having celebrated Ireland's win!!

quote:

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Back in the early/mid eighties, most of us owned cheap crappy turntables with cheap crappy amps and needles etc.

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Speak for yourself!

In the early 1980's I was running LP12/LVX/Basik/NAD3020/Mission 70's.

I still have that LP12, it's retired to the loft now though.

Paul

Afzal

great post. I'm with Eric - try it in your first system now! No need to wait for geddon and aro. You should be surprised.

What you do have is a fabulously synergistic late 80's system, and the music you're hearing is in part attributable to that synergy.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - I nearly forgot. It was the Baby Boomers who were responsible for the widespread adoption of CD. Apart from those who already understood vinyl and the magic it held.

Tapes? Yeah, I've been enjoying some of the 400-odd cassettes I still have, recently.

Interestingly, even the stuff I recorded in the early 80's (japanese tape decks such as Technics and Teac) serve not only as a reminder of the music and the times, but preserve that certain sound that Japanese turntables provided me with at the time. I listened to Panorama by The Cars the other day, and really enjoyed it. I was tempted to create a decent tape Over the top of the existing on my TDK AD tape, from LP12 etc etc onto the Nak. Then I realised my tape is a sort of time capsule - I can use it to provide some sort of reference for how it sounded to me back then. As such, I'll preserve it.

Is this unreasonable given the state of my system these days (Nak DR3, 82/sc/250/SBL), in that the sounds will be so different? I think not - as it's still source first. In this case, a somewhat pinched, bandwidth-limited presentation that the Pioneer T/T, Technics Mega-amp and Technics RSM-245X tapedeck of my buddy's system provided at the time. Cymbals, guitars, vocals are all squished together - yet it's somewhat comforting.

Same applies for later tapes made from the time I had my Thorens - a quantum leap forward sonically and musically, of course. I like tapes!

[This message was edited by Rico on WEDNESDAY 12 June 2002 at 00:50.]

Was initially a little worried that the CDS1 would outshine the non-Naimed LP12 but will give it a go after the encouragement that's been given.

My only other concern is the fact that the Maggies are ruthlessly revealing and thought that the Ittok + Valhalla may not be up to the mark just yet. Will try it anyway and post the results.

The only probelm is that doing so will render the bedroom system 'sourceless' for a while. I was thinking of using the LP12 as the only source for the 2nd system as this will *force* me to buy more records! I'm a lazy git and if there was a CD player around as well, chances are that I would probably use CDs more for sake of convenience (especially when trying to wake up in the morning!)

Buying vinyl in Kuala Lumpur is a challenge! I do however have a great dealer who brings stuff in from the States on a regular basis to satisfy our cravings -- my Vinyl collection now tallies a humble 50 pieces made up mostly of 80s rock and pop (which I adore).

Will be in the UK again in the next few months -- Where's the best place to buy (as near as mint as possible) vinyl in and around London?

Naheed,

I found the whole damn thing daunting having never played a record in my entire life. What you need is a good dealer/friend to hold your hand. It's taken me a good part of a week and I'm already very comfortable with the whole thing. Give it a try -- used TTs are cheap and a damn good buy -- plus you guys have absolutely no problem buying software in the UK.

Saiful,

Good to see you back online as your proper self. Whatever happened to Jauhar Ezryad? I eventually ended up picking the IBLs over the ES14s (which are sitting outside my room at the moment looking for a happy home)
What happened to the 42/110 that you bought from Hailmy? Have you managed to get yourself speakers to go with them? Hailmy and I brought the IBLS over just to show that the 42/110 was working properly. Are you still looking for a pair? There were a couple on Ebay & Loot the other day. Not concerned at all about the LP12 sounding like a VPI -- I'm sure the Maggies will be as revealing as always and remain true to source. Come over for a listen.

Afzal.

quote:

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It may transform the LP12 to VPI I think

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Saiful - I was thinking the same thing! Why buy a 32.5 when you could have a 72! e-mail me if you're interested.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I was also recently stunned by the music that came out from my friend’s setup with the michell gyrodec. There was simply no comparison with CDs especially when it came to pop. The other source in the setup was the top of the line marantz sa-1. Even on SACD, I thought the vinyl won by a mile.
Few things in hifi made me go ‘wow’ but the TT certainly did.

"Back in the early/mid eighties, most of us owned cheap crappy turntables with cheap crappy amps and needles etc.
Most vinyl sounded snap crackle and pop whilst CD's sounded so clear in comparison especially at low volume.
You have to remember that a TT such a LP12 cost a fortune in those days and there was not the second hand bargins you have today." Mick Parry

Mick is totally wrong. To not put too fine a point on it, what he says here is a load of bollocks.
When I bought my first LP12 in 1980 you could get one with a decent arm an cartridge for about £400. A lot of money, especially then, but there were others around for much more. And when CD players first appeared they weren't cheap either.
Also, Rega decks were ridiculously inexpensive. A Planar 2 was about £120 in the early 80s, and would destroy any early CD player. And there were quite a lot of secondhand ones around as well, as people upgraded from them to LP12s.
If vinyl sounded 'snap, crackle and pop', then it was only because it wasn't being looked after. I have records I bought 20+ years ago that still sound perfect.
The only reason CDs caught on was marketing. Most people chose ease of use, convenience and a stylish image in preference to something that was portrayed as tired and dated.
Pau

Let's see now - the average turntable was £50. It clanked, walloped, wowed (badly) and rumbled. The cartridges were made just as badly - I even saw plastic styli in the early eighties for God's sake!!!

Then there was the vinyl quality. Records weighing around 100grams, which you could almost see through, stamped from reconstituted vinyl, started snapping, crackling and popping after 2 plays.

Along comes CD with claims of perfect sound forever, no wear, no replacement for the life of the laser, convenient size in 'proper' jewel cases (argh!), with clarity unheard of on the average turntable off the average record, and well, blow me! - CD's took off.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Frank's point about vinyl quality in the late '70s and early '80s is right on - the vinyl quality from the majors was abysmal, and when I started to have enough money to buy records, I was held back by the knowledge I'd have to return 2/3 of the records I bought.

But let's not underemphasize the importance of the music 'industry' - perhaps because mediocre CD was easier to produce than vinyl (many fewer returns?), probably because they thought they could hype CD and thereby increase their revenues, whatever (the 'whatever' giving me license to violate any grammatical rule I care to) - the 'industry' decided to retire vinyl and dump CD crap on the unsuspecting public.

In fact, not only was the Compact Disc a result of a Compact with the Deveil, the CD was the first step on the road to Enron and Worldcom - if we had stopped the bastards in 1983(?), the corporate universe would never have devolved into the moral abyss we have now.

Phil
in I Never Said That!, IL, USA

quote:

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...and as for the thread'ist' with his old LP12 in the attic....get a grip, at least let someone else benefit from it by selling it, even if you yourself are convinced its days are gone.

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I think you don't know what you don't know.

There's no shortage of good LP12s out there, if you want one buy one. That's what I did, twice.

Paul

I think the real reason that CDs took off were threefold:

1. Marketing. It was pushed by the music industry as the perfect format. In this was the desire that people would buy the LPs they already had. Therefore, they would make more money.

2. CDs were more expensive. A new record was about 7-8 UKP in 1984 (when I started buying) but the same CD was £12. However, to make it more palatable they gave you an extra couple of tracks on CD to make up for it. Whether it was worth it was unlikely but again it was a way of the industry making more money.

3. You didn't have to turn the CD over half way through. In terms of the consumer this was the only advantage that I can see.

I really can't see much other difference but I did notice some of my CDs are beginning to break down (the earlier ones). I suspect that some of them will need to be replaced at some point which again is ... yip more money.

Its a field day for anyone who believes in conspiracy theories.

Mr Gravet

You said..."Mick is totally wrong. To not put too fine a point on it, what he says here is a load of bollocks.

Mr Gravet, I was buying Vinyl when your mother was sprinkling talcum powder on your bum. I was around and you were not.

It was just like Frank said....most record decks were junk, the LP12 and the like were owned by a fortunate few. The LP's warped liked no bodies business and the cartridges were a joke. The overall sound was nothing like what you are hearing today on you Valhalled, LP12 with its Dynavector cartridge etc.

I can remember a going to a local restaurant which was playing some background music on CD for the first time.

Everyone commented just how clear it sounded. It knocked the spots off tape and vinyl.

I grant you that most people in this forum are now playing vinyl systems which sound superb, but it is a big mistake to presume that was how things were 25 yrs ago.

It those days, the average CD system blew the socks off the average vinyl system and it was a no brainer that it would take over.

Regards

Mick

"It those days, the average CD system blew the socks off the average vinyl system and it was a no brainer that it would take over." - Mick Parry

CD players were crap in those days (early 80's).

When I bought my LP12 (in 1983) it was a case of do I spend £450 on an LP12 or do I spend more on a CD player and buy the 6 or so CDs that were available (most of them by Dire Straits!).

I still have my LP12 and have only recently bought a (Naim) CD player.

They only took off because they were "the future", the trendy thing to have. Much like digital watches, analogue mobile phones, Walkmans, Discmans, Digital mobile phones, MP3 players, WAP phones, .Coms, 3G mobile phones.

I know many people who bought CD based systems who thought they were wonderful - until they heard vinyl played on an LP12 through Naim amps.

Mick, you quitely rightly point out that I'm a lot younger than you but I am old enough to have started buying vinyl seriously in the 1970s and I was 18 when I purchased an LP12 in 1980.
I'm afraid I can't agree with you that the average cd player of the 80s was streets ahead of the average turntable and that's why people flocked to digital recordings.
To me an 'average' example of a tt would be something like a Planar 2 or a Dual 505. They were recommended in hifi mags of the time as good budget buys and they knocked the spots off any contemporary cd players.
Although there was a myth that cds sounded a lot clearer and natural than vinyl, anyone who listened at the time soon realised this wasn't the case. People bought them for non-musical 'lifestyle' reasons, ie it was the trendy thing to do, a box full of flashing lights looked 'cooler' than a spinning disc, etc.
There was also the fear that the days of vinyl were numbered and soon tts would be obsolete and no parts would be available.
This is basically capitalism at work: creating desires thru advertising and then fulfilling them to increase profit.
Paul 'Never Mind the Bollocks' Gravet

Seagull

You said........"I know many people who bought CD based systems who thought they were wonderful - until they heard vinyl played on an LP12 through Naim amps.

Thats my point. In 1982, the average salary was £7000.00 (only 24% of males over 21 earn in excess of the average wage) and a LP12 was quoted as costing £450.00. Not many people would spend that sort of money on a TT. Therefore a CDP costing £80 would be bound to win in the sales war.

Today you can still buy a LP12 for £450.00 and get a good sound.

Most of us have both vinyl and CD, so whats the problem.

Regards

Mick

quote:

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I grant you that most people in this forum are now playing vinyl systems which sound superb, but it is a big mistake to presume that was how things were 25 yrs ago.

It those days, the average CD system blew the socks off the average vinyl system and it was a no brainer that it would take over.

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This is not true – when CD was first released the players were very expensive indeed, and also quite horrible. They were simply not competing against the plastic BSR record decks in the crappy sub-hi-fi music centres, they were competing against the Thorens TD160, Rega 3, Ariston RD80 level of turntables and above. Sonically they lost. Big time. I’m sure I can’t be alone in remembering how god awful the first few generations of CD players were – I borrowed the early Phillips (the top-loader that Meridian later modified) and it was truly shite. Hard, brash, musically disconnected, just plain crap. My turntable at the time was a Ariston RD80, definitely not a high end job, but it absolutely killed the thing. It was over ten years later before I was prepared to own a CD player!

The only area that CD competed with vinyl in the 80s was right at the end of the decade when they started making players cheaply enough to go into the ultra cheap home entertainment centres that previously would have had a horrific plastic TT as Frank describes. For our purposes these systems can be ignored as they are not, and never were hi-fi.

As for record pressing quality from the late 70s and early 80s, well I have loads of the things, and on the whole they aren’t bad at all. I think the quality dipped later, though mainly with budget priced re-issues (I always hunt down originals, and am usually clued up enough to find the music I like when it comes out, so don’t have many at all).

Tony.