New mains cables - million dollar question?
Posted by: Randy_the_goat on 30 October 2006
Hi everybody. I am new to the forum. I have a linn sondek with ittok arm and goldring elite cartridge. Amps are old Naim 42.5/140 with hi-cap and Linn Kan speakers on their own stands. I have been listening to this kit for over 20 years now and apart from a few upgrades ,cirkus, new snaics and NACA5 speaker cable and various changes of cartridge have done very little to the system - mainly due to lack of money. Anyway I realise that this subject has probably been done to death but just recently I have thought maybe that mains leads may make an overall improvement for a small outlay. Russ Andrews does some called 'yellow' which have got good reviews in hi-fi mags. Are these any good with Naim stuff? And then I found this article which seems to knock them somewhat...... sorry its a bit long.
If this isn't just a £30 kettle lead, I'll eat my hat
Ben Goldacre
The Guardian
My new year resolution is to have more Johnny Ball home science experiment moments. Which brings me on to reader David Stafford. "Today, I received a catalogue from a UK hi fi company called Russ Andrews," he begins. You can find their web site at
www.russandrews.com. On the front page is a power cable that costs £29.95. "If anyone buys this," he says, "they will need their heads examined."
The American philosopher George Gale identifies two types of science: "cookbook science", which works out, perhaps by trial and error, whether something does work; and "explanatory science", which seeks to offer explanations and mechanisms for the observed generalisations of the cookbook stuff.
The "YellO Power" is indeed a 30 quid power cable, of the type that you might colloquially identify as a kettle lead. It's about a metre long and has a 3 pin 240v plug. This is their claim for efficacy, verbatim: "Replacing the mains cable to any of your hi-fi or home cinema components means they perform better, giving you less distortion, clearer pictures, and more musicality, so that you enjoy your music and movies even more!"
So how do they reckon it works? "The key to the success of the Russ Andrews mains cables is the unique Kimber cable weave. The woven mains cable has been proven to dramatically reduce sound-degrading radio frequency interference on the mains supply and to reject further pick up of RFI."
Let's think about how electricity gets from the national grid to that wall socket, where you plug in the kettle lead that powers your stereo. It zooms along huge cables between big pylons (at very high voltages, because higher voltages can get down long lines with less waste) and then gets turned into 240v at your local substation. Then it travels a fairly long distance from the substation to your house before it comes through the metering stuff. Then the power has got to go up the stairs, around the walls and under the floor to the socket next to your stereo. All of these voyages are fabulous opportunities for the cable to act as an antenna, and pick up radio frequencies that could present themselves as noise in the final sound coming out of your speakers. The cable might stop the last metre or so from picking up radio noise, but if radio noise really is a problem, it will probably be there already, from the huge length of preceding cables. I can't imagine how this expensive kettle lead is going to filter it out.
I'm told that Russ Andrews is away but that he will show me measured proof on his return. If I'm wrong I'll eat my hat, but I am unaware of any published evidence that an expensive power cable can make your hi-fi sound better. If I'm correct, and such evidence does not exist, then what we have here is an important gap in the research literature. More important, possibly, than both a cure for malaria and a fix for global warming. So I have a challenge: if there is somebody out there, somebody who sells power cables for £30 perhaps, or who works for a hi-fi magazine, and they reckon they can tell the difference, significantly more consistently than would be expected by chance, in a robust, double blind, randomised trial, head to head, of these expensive power leads, up against a normal cheap-o kettle lead which I shall provide, then let them come forward.
James Randi has a million dollars on offer for anyone who can demonstrate empirical evidence for their incredible claims under laboratory conditions. If you can spot the difference here, under sitting room conditions, I'm offering you the glory, the warm glow that comes from contributing empirical data to the sum of human knowledge, and a free bogus PhD in the subject of your choice, as long as I can find one cheap enough. I'm absolutely serious and I'm itching to be proved wrong. Please send your bad science to bad.science@guardian.co.uk
Posted on: 30 October 2006 by JWM
Hello Randy, welcome.
Mains-related stuff is likely to be transferred by the Moderator to Padded Cell.
I have not tried the RA Yello. But, taken in by the blurb, I have tried extensively the RA Classic and Reference, with and without 'superclamp'.
Take it from me, don't waste yer money - the Naim mains cable is MUCH better.
Superficially, the RA stuff can at first seem to produce some more detail, but ultimately smooths out everything so much that it completely strangles the sound. It is insidious in that because Naim kit takes a week to warm up properly you will realise that it sounds 'different', but you might not realise that you are being sold short...
I know this because after perhaps six months with the RA, I tried the Naim cables again 'just to see' - the MUSIC flooded back (and I hadn't realised it had gone)!!
Instead, put the money towards a Service for your 42.5, and especially HC/140 (assuming you haven't already had this done - if you have, more records!).
James
Posted on: 30 October 2006 by Phil123
QUOTE
Originally posted by Randy_the_goat:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway I realise that this subject has probably been done to death but just recently I have thought maybe that mains leads may make an overall improvement for a small outlay.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hi there - Have you tried any different mains leads yet? I have tried Russ Andrews mains leads with my Nait5i but I preferred the original Naim lead which has a more rhythmic bounce to it and less muddled bass. However, I have an Arcam cd player and a Russ Andrews classic powerchord to that, which to my ears is an improvement to the Arcam lead.
Personally I would stick to the original Naim power leads for Naim equipment.
Regards
Phil
Posted on: 30 October 2006 by Randy_the_goat
Thanks guys. So unless anyone chips in to the contrary I will save my money and stick with the original Naim leads. More booze for Xmas then. Sorry about that Moderators - my first post and its in the wrong forum. Oh dear!!!
Posted on: 30 October 2006 by sktn77a
quote:
So I have a challenge: if there is somebody out there, somebody who sells power cables for £30 perhaps, or who works for a hi-fi magazine, and they reckon they can tell the difference, significantly more consistently than would be expected by chance, in a robust, double blind, randomised trial, head to head, of these expensive power leads, up against a normal cheap-o kettle lead which I shall provide, then let them come forward. James Randi has a million dollars on offer for anyone who can demonstrate empirical evidence for their incredible claims under laboratory conditions.
WOW!!! My kinda guy!
Keith
Posted on: 30 October 2006 by prowla
I tried Yello leads with my Naim system, and they seemed to smooth/soften the sound.
I bought them on a 2-for-1 offer to have a looksee.
But I can't say that they improved it (ie. they didn't!).
A company called Grahams sell the semi-official Hydra (made from Naim cables), and I've never heard anybody say that they don't improve the sound!
I haven't personally tried one, because I made my own!
On top of that, I do not subscript to the "Naim make the only leads worth having" mantra.
For years we had "the grey interconnect is the only one worth having", and then the Hi-Line appeards, and suddenly that was the must-have. But some people also started saying that the Chord Indigo was better.
Likewise on speaker cable, there is the "you must use NACA5" chant. But I don't believe that that is the case.
Anyway, back to the question - I'd recommend you look at a hydra.
Posted on: 30 October 2006 by Scott Mckenzie
Chords' iChord works wonderfully well with my CD5i....
Posted on: 30 October 2006 by Goldstar
Believe me Naim and Kimber are just not compatible. There is nothing wrong with the cable, it seems to work in many other situations.
Bob
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by Pressure
I agree, Naim cables will almost certainly perform better than after market cables will with Naim equipment. (I guess it's possible that after market cables from someone like Russ Andrews might help other kit where less engineering resource is put into the power supply.)
However... surely the issue to consider is whether Ben Goldacre - whose column is usually very good - would, a priori, believe that _any_ attempt to enhance the power supply's impact on hifi performance is probably "snake oil"? In other words, would be, for the reasons detailed in the article, regard even Naim's lead as no better than a kettle lead? When Goldacre says that "I am unaware of any published evidence that an expensive power cable can make your hi-fi sound better", would that also apply to expensive power supplies such as those from Naim?
I'm not saying Naim's stuff doesn't work. However, I suspect that there ARE well-established engineering principles that underpin this... and that Goldacre's rubbishing of Russ Andrews may not be as copper-bottomed as he might believe.
Any engineers here want to cite some references?
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by ashrafs
the russ andrews stuff is great with home cinema's, TV's, dvd players, radio's etc. i've used their power chords and silencers and it clearly improved the picture quality on my TV. Like the majority view here it doesn't have the same impact on Naim.
But at least RA lets you return the item if it doesn't work for you. I don't think we should knock RA, the customer service is excellant and the guy is very passionate about what he does. I don't see any other manufacturers letting you try stuff out and return it for a full money guarantee becuase you didn't like it. Imagine if Chord, B&W, etc let you do this.
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by prowla
quote:
Originally posted by ashrafs:
the russ andrews stuff is great with home cinema's, TV's, dvd players, radio's etc. i've used their power chords and silencers and it clearly improved the picture quality on my TV. Like the majority view here it doesn't have the same impact on Naim.
But at least RA lets you return the item if it doesn't work for you. I don't think we should knock RA, the customer service is excellant and the guy is very passionate about what he does. I don't see any other manufacturers letting you try stuff out and return it for a full money guarantee becuase you didn't like it. Imagine if Chord, B&W, etc let you do this.
I don't think anybody here is knocking RA, but rather giving an opinion on the products in their situation.
Which is basically the thread topic.
(I'm a repeat customer, BTW.)
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by JamieWednesday
VDH mains cable made a huge difference to the boggo one on my TT as did the Supra lead when attached to my Yamaha tuner. Clearly I have tried them on the Naim boxes, however while the sound was affected, it was not better with them and I stuck to Naim cables.
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by Adam Meredith
Like interconnects, mains cables CAN make a difference to the resultant sound. The ones we supply are picked from commercially available samples and represent the ones that, in our opinion, work the best with our equipment.
It is quite likely that improvements can be made but instantaneously perceived changes in presentation are not always satisfying in the long-term.
With any such experimentation - try for a while, remove and replace with the supplied leads - make your decision on the system's ability to produce music.
Anything which is not the same is different and will present aspects of the sound in a new light. This is often immediately appreciable but may, with time, emphasise the "hi-fi" rather than musical aspects of presentation.
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by Don Atkinson
quote:
So I have a challenge: if there is somebody out there, somebody who sells power cables for £30 perhaps, or who works for a hi-fi magazine, and they reckon they can tell the difference, significantly more consistently than would be expected by chance, in a robust, double blind, randomised trial, head to head, of these expensive power leads, up against a normal cheap-o kettle lead which I shall provide, then let them come forward.
James Randi has a million dollars on offer for anyone who can demonstrate empirical evidence for their incredible claims under laboratory conditions
Now, the challenge is NOT whether the expensive leads are BETTER, only whether you can tell the DIFFERENCE between them.
Looks like young Adam will be able to retire by the end of the week..........
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by Randy_the_goat
quote:
But at least RA lets you return the item if it doesn't work for you.
But it seems that according to an old RA catalogue that I have that these leads nead 500 hours of being played through before they sound at their best but Mr.Andrews only takes back stuff within 60 days. So by the time you have allowed 500 hours to pass to see if there is improvement the 60 days will be up and you're stuck with them.
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by JWM
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
Like interconnects, mains cables CAN make a difference to the resultant sound. The ones we supply are picked from commercially available samples and represent the ones that, in our opinion, work the best with our equipment.
It is quite likely that improvements can be made but instantaneously perceived changes in presentation are not always satisfying in the long-term.
With any such experimentation - try for a while, remove and replace with the supplied leads - make your decision on the system's ability to produce music.
Anything which is not the same is different and will present aspects of the sound in a new light. This is often immediately appreciable but may, with time, emphasise the "hi-fi" rather than musical aspects of presentation.
Adam has, in his usual eloquent way, put into a nutshell my own experience rather more clumsily expressed earlier in this thread.
James
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by David McN
I used to own a run of the mill Arcam system and I was convinced that RA cables improved the quality of the sound.
When I upgraded to a Naim system I tried using the RA cables but found that they had a detrimental effect on sound quality.
David
Posted on: 03 November 2006 by Goldstar
Adam Meredith said:
quote:
Anything which is not the same is different
Well ,ground breaking stuff....but at the end of his statement Adam says that it MAY ,with time, emphasise the "hi-fi" rather than the musical aspects of presentation. The word MAY
would indicate a degree of uncertianty and could not the opposite be true?
That the emphasis could be on the musical aspects of the presentation rather than the "hi-fi".
Bob
Posted on: 03 November 2006 by rupert bear
Ben Goldacre of the Guardian thinks £30 for a mains lead is expensive. Hopefully no-one's told him about the Nordost Valhalla.
PS I went back to the standard Naim cables after living with the Nordost Shivas for a couple of months... and didn't think they were as good. So I'm using the Nordost!
Posted on: 06 November 2006 by Laurie Saunders
I`m afraid I`m going to upset the applecart here - I have tried RA mains cables, and I prefer them with my Naim kit to any others I have heard--and this is a conclusion reached over a prolonged timescale(5+ years)of testing
But that`s just my opinion...
laurie
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Goldstar
Hi Laurie,
When you say RA cables do you mean Kimber Mains cables?
Bob
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Laurie Saunders
Yes
laurie
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Goldstar
Laurie, you would seem to be the exception that proves the rule.
Bob
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by prc
Well I run a RA yello on the nait and it works great...so there...
I've actually tried a few of the cables on the cd5, fc2 and the nait5. Only got an improvement on the nait. Thought it compressed sound om the cd5.
Paulo
Posted on: 08 November 2006 by Laurie Saunders
Quote
Laurie, you would seem to be the exception that proves the rule.
with respect,I am not sure that I understand what this means
laurie
Posted on: 08 November 2006 by SB
I have an 8 Way RA power block with a RA cable connecting that to the ring main. I have YellO power cables on all kit except the Naim stuff, where I have the good old orginal Naim supplied cables.
Overall I can say that this has improved the sound significantly. It has also cleaned up picture quality on the TV.
I suspect a lot of this improvement is about attenuating the electrical noise coming back down the power cords FROM the PSU's in the TV, DVD player, etc. This is the exact same attenuation that may be detrimental to a free flowing current supply TO NAIM kit.
RA kit does work and certainly isn't snake oil, it just needs to be applied appropriately. He does have some interesting articles on how he has applied his products to some very prestigous recording studios with dramatic effect.
Another aside on mains in general. I have recently had a ground source heat pump installed. This is wired by tapping off the meter tails to a separate isolator. The heat pump has a 1.75kw compressor that draws over 25Amps on startup. My electricity company have advised that this load could cause a 6% volt drop. It certainly dims the lights when it kicks in. I can't detect any detriment in sound when the heat pump starts or is running. The start current must be doing something nasty to the mains on startup. Is this the quality and reserve capacity of Naim PSUs that is preventing this getting through to the business end?