AV and Stereo in one system?
Posted by: StephenK on 27 March 2003
Hello everybody!
I am still new to this Forum, and in general my attitude towards my system over the past years was probably quite a conservative one. I was very cautious with upgrades and put the focus on maintaining the quality of what I have. I am highly satisfied with the musical performance of my system, and when talking with friends I always stated that Stereo and AV, respectively multi chanel are two different stories.
I feel familiar with two chanels, but cannot comment on how to install AV or combine AV with a main system. I also thought that there is some contradiction, meaning either you have Stereo or AV, meaning that AV would require a seperate system in a seperate room. It is also the old single speaker theory which still lets me think that more than two speakers in the same room would lead to compromises when listening to only stereo.
So my question is whether some of you have experiance with this matter, how does all this fit togehter, how would a lets say CDS based system look like when combined with AV, or are two rooms required.
Thanks,
Stephen
I am still new to this Forum, and in general my attitude towards my system over the past years was probably quite a conservative one. I was very cautious with upgrades and put the focus on maintaining the quality of what I have. I am highly satisfied with the musical performance of my system, and when talking with friends I always stated that Stereo and AV, respectively multi chanel are two different stories.
I feel familiar with two chanels, but cannot comment on how to install AV or combine AV with a main system. I also thought that there is some contradiction, meaning either you have Stereo or AV, meaning that AV would require a seperate system in a seperate room. It is also the old single speaker theory which still lets me think that more than two speakers in the same room would lead to compromises when listening to only stereo.
So my question is whether some of you have experiance with this matter, how does all this fit togehter, how would a lets say CDS based system look like when combined with AV, or are two rooms required.
Thanks,
Stephen
Posted on: 27 March 2003 by ARC
Stephen,
Hopefully I will be adding AV to my system tomorrow if my Pioneer receiver turns up. I'll let you know if it compromisesd my ordinary stereo sound from my CDI, 82, scap,250. I've only got one room suitable for listening so unfortunatley no option for separat AV and stereo.
Brendan
Hopefully I will be adding AV to my system tomorrow if my Pioneer receiver turns up. I'll let you know if it compromisesd my ordinary stereo sound from my CDI, 82, scap,250. I've only got one room suitable for listening so unfortunatley no option for separat AV and stereo.
Brendan
Posted on: 27 March 2003 by gusi
Stephen,
The idea of mixing stereo and AV is to use the existing stereo gear for the main speakers of surround sound.
The AV gear then provides the other channels. To mix the two you need an AV amp or decoder with a preamp out. You can connect the pre amp out to an used uninput on your Naim pre amp.
The idea of the pre amp out is that the signal is attenuated by the AV amp volume control. This way you connect either to a unity gain input or a normal input and turn your Naim amp way up and only use the AV amp's volume control.
The AV2 does this, as well as many cheaper AVamps. As always you get what you pay for.
I haven't found that it compromised the sound of my Naim equipment. Though people who have tweaked their setup to the max would probably disagree.
It has compromised the sight off my equipment rack. In an AV setup you just have many more cables. Currently the TV/stereo setup uses about 12 power points and there are innumerable cables at the back of the rack. As this is all near the TV it is in obvious view.
But I think the first question should be your domestic arrangements. Do you want to listen to the stereo while others watch TV? If so you need two separate rooms.
cheers
Gus
The idea of mixing stereo and AV is to use the existing stereo gear for the main speakers of surround sound.
The AV gear then provides the other channels. To mix the two you need an AV amp or decoder with a preamp out. You can connect the pre amp out to an used uninput on your Naim pre amp.
The idea of the pre amp out is that the signal is attenuated by the AV amp volume control. This way you connect either to a unity gain input or a normal input and turn your Naim amp way up and only use the AV amp's volume control.
The AV2 does this, as well as many cheaper AVamps. As always you get what you pay for.
I haven't found that it compromised the sound of my Naim equipment. Though people who have tweaked their setup to the max would probably disagree.
It has compromised the sight off my equipment rack. In an AV setup you just have many more cables. Currently the TV/stereo setup uses about 12 power points and there are innumerable cables at the back of the rack. As this is all near the TV it is in obvious view.
But I think the first question should be your domestic arrangements. Do you want to listen to the stereo while others watch TV? If so you need two separate rooms.
cheers
Gus
Posted on: 27 March 2003 by Geoff P
Stephen
I have a 112/HiCap/150 driving a pair of Totem Mani 2 Monitor quality speakers and am upgrading to a CDX2 any day now (waiting for it to arrive)
I came at this quality front end from first having AV in the form of a DENON AVR3802 driving into B&W speakers used for DVD-V, DVD-A and SACD.
I have integrated the quality front end in exactly the way that gusi describes, using the "unity gain" AV input on the 112 and it all works well after introducing a few housekeeping rules.
Keep the plug and power for the quality front end seperate from the plug and power used for all the AV including TV , video and sat box.
Watch out for earth loops which can happen if you connect the front end sources thru' multiple input chains.
That said I am very happy with the results. The front end runs as a great stereo system. You can of course turn off the AV kit for completeness for this.
The surround sound side which comes into play with AV switched on sounds just as good as it did even though the front speakers are no longer a perfect match for the B&W surround speakers.
Because the sound quality coming out of the front channels is so much better than the rest it is not to much of a problem to accept the mismatch.
Of course if you can afford high quality speakers all round you don't even have to put up with this small problem.
GEOFFP
I have a 112/HiCap/150 driving a pair of Totem Mani 2 Monitor quality speakers and am upgrading to a CDX2 any day now (waiting for it to arrive)
I came at this quality front end from first having AV in the form of a DENON AVR3802 driving into B&W speakers used for DVD-V, DVD-A and SACD.
I have integrated the quality front end in exactly the way that gusi describes, using the "unity gain" AV input on the 112 and it all works well after introducing a few housekeeping rules.
Keep the plug and power for the quality front end seperate from the plug and power used for all the AV including TV , video and sat box.
Watch out for earth loops which can happen if you connect the front end sources thru' multiple input chains.
That said I am very happy with the results. The front end runs as a great stereo system. You can of course turn off the AV kit for completeness for this.
The surround sound side which comes into play with AV switched on sounds just as good as it did even though the front speakers are no longer a perfect match for the B&W surround speakers.
Because the sound quality coming out of the front channels is so much better than the rest it is not to much of a problem to accept the mismatch.
Of course if you can afford high quality speakers all round you don't even have to put up with this small problem.
GEOFFP
Posted on: 28 March 2003 by Brad
"Because the sound quality coming out of the front channels is so much better than the rest it is not to much of a problem to accept the mismatch."
come on you can´t be serious! What is realy the point of integrating your two channel with a AV-amp that is obviosly not up for the job?? If you are thinking of combining the systems you must get a center of the same caliber as your front ends, then you need an amp to match your current one. the rear/surround channels isn´t as big a issue but they must be reasonoble compared to the rest. Regarding this its quite obvious that the processor and the dvd must ad up with the rest i.e combining Music and AV is the long and winding road + £££££££££££££.
On the other hand if you were to get a deasent AV setup in a diffent room with the the only function of working as a homecinema your task is quite enjoyable and simple.
Brad
come on you can´t be serious! What is realy the point of integrating your two channel with a AV-amp that is obviosly not up for the job?? If you are thinking of combining the systems you must get a center of the same caliber as your front ends, then you need an amp to match your current one. the rear/surround channels isn´t as big a issue but they must be reasonoble compared to the rest. Regarding this its quite obvious that the processor and the dvd must ad up with the rest i.e combining Music and AV is the long and winding road + £££££££££££££.
On the other hand if you were to get a deasent AV setup in a diffent room with the the only function of working as a homecinema your task is quite enjoyable and simple.
Brad
Posted on: 28 March 2003 by Phil Sparks
quote:
Originally posted by Brad:
"Because the sound quality coming out of the front channels is so much better than the rest it is not to much of a problem to accept the mismatch."
come on you can´t be serious! What is realy the point of integrating your two channel with a AV-amp that is obviosly not up for the job?? If you are thinking of combining the systems you must get a center of the same caliber as your front ends, then you need an amp to match your current one. the rear/surround channels isn´t as big a issue but they must be reasonoble compared to the rest. Regarding this its quite obvious that the processor and the dvd must ad up with the rest i.e combining Music and AV is the long and winding road + £££££££££££££.
On the other hand if you were to get a deasent AV setup in a diffent room with the the only function of working as a homecinema your task is quite enjoyable and simple.
Brad
Surely it's a question of priorities - if your main relaxation is listening, then concentrate on the audio only stuff. If you just occasionally want to do the AV thing, or are just not that bothered if it isn't the same level of quality then surely it's reasonable to add relatively cheap gear onto the existing main stereo. the only point worth bearing in mind is that the main centre channel is important as it carries all the dialogue. If you've got a great main system and the speakers are not that far apart wouldn't it be preferable to omit the centre channel altogether and send the dialogue to the stereo speakers in 'phantom' mode?
Phil
Posted on: 28 March 2003 by Geoff P
Brad
From one view what you say is true.BUT:-
In my case the AV came first so it was a concious choice to plan the later introduction of a quality front end. I accepted the compromises because as Phil states in his mail my greatest use and pleasure comes from listening to high quality stereo music. As I pointed out I don't even turn on the AV kit for that.
Also I don't have the luxury of a decent size seperate listening room for dedicated AV or stereo use.
Thirdly the B&W's are CM series which are reasonable quality and again as Phil suggests I slectively disable the center channel for music a lot of the time. On music typically there is very little contribution to the imaging from the center so re-directing it to the high quality main speakers is actually better.
On DVD-A and SACD there are 2 types of listening experience
With well recorded and mixed versions on both formats the rear channels only carry ambient information to create a palpable sense of "space" to music coming from the main channels. The quality of the rear sepakers and the amp driving them is not so critical.
Other discs play games with the recording and put full spectrum sound thru' the rear channels. This is an artificial sound experience for the listener. That does not say that it is terrible, only that you either accept it as musical experience or you don't even bother with it. In my experience the "steering" of sound in these circumstances is already artificial so small compromises in absolute quality are not anywhere near as significant as in high quality stereo.
Finally on the DSP side of things, the DENON is really only an analog amplifier for the extra channels on DVD-A and SACD because the DSP, by law, has to be done in the head units and passed out for amplification as analog signals. This means the main front channels can actually be passed direct to the 112, they don't even have to go into the DENON. If you do that they are not even slightly polluted by any DENON "pass thru". In practice in side by side listening with and without DENON "pass thru" I can tell no difference which confirms that the Analog connection on the DENON AV between pre in and pre-out is pretty close to pure.
It is only with DVD-movies that I use the DSP on the DENON which does not even need to be discussed in terms of high quality sound. In fact even then if I wanted to I could do the DSP at source and pass the fronts direct to the 112 as with music.
I know it all sounds a bit fussy but it works for me.
GEOFFP
From one view what you say is true.BUT:-
In my case the AV came first so it was a concious choice to plan the later introduction of a quality front end. I accepted the compromises because as Phil states in his mail my greatest use and pleasure comes from listening to high quality stereo music. As I pointed out I don't even turn on the AV kit for that.
Also I don't have the luxury of a decent size seperate listening room for dedicated AV or stereo use.
Thirdly the B&W's are CM series which are reasonable quality and again as Phil suggests I slectively disable the center channel for music a lot of the time. On music typically there is very little contribution to the imaging from the center so re-directing it to the high quality main speakers is actually better.
On DVD-A and SACD there are 2 types of listening experience
With well recorded and mixed versions on both formats the rear channels only carry ambient information to create a palpable sense of "space" to music coming from the main channels. The quality of the rear sepakers and the amp driving them is not so critical.
Other discs play games with the recording and put full spectrum sound thru' the rear channels. This is an artificial sound experience for the listener. That does not say that it is terrible, only that you either accept it as musical experience or you don't even bother with it. In my experience the "steering" of sound in these circumstances is already artificial so small compromises in absolute quality are not anywhere near as significant as in high quality stereo.
Finally on the DSP side of things, the DENON is really only an analog amplifier for the extra channels on DVD-A and SACD because the DSP, by law, has to be done in the head units and passed out for amplification as analog signals. This means the main front channels can actually be passed direct to the 112, they don't even have to go into the DENON. If you do that they are not even slightly polluted by any DENON "pass thru". In practice in side by side listening with and without DENON "pass thru" I can tell no difference which confirms that the Analog connection on the DENON AV between pre in and pre-out is pretty close to pure.
It is only with DVD-movies that I use the DSP on the DENON which does not even need to be discussed in terms of high quality sound. In fact even then if I wanted to I could do the DSP at source and pass the fronts direct to the 112 as with music.
I know it all sounds a bit fussy but it works for me.
GEOFFP