flat earth only a speaker theme?!

And still nobody has satisfactorily explained why flat and round earth attributes are mututally exclusive. Could it be because they simply want them to be? The human race has a very long history of making subtle comparisons. Groups then split off on the tiniest shred of a whim. Why not with hifi? A spiritual belief by any other naim?

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

A lot of the talk here is a bit abstract.

Could somebody enlighten me as to which of the top brands major in "round earth" attributes.

I have the new black equipment and "round earth attributes" appear to be amply evident given the right recordings - although not too many - certainly with contemporary music.

Karl

Flat/Round isn't about brands, it's about listeners.

If you only 'evaluate' equipment when absolutely necessary (say the tip's fallen off your cartridge) and when you do you are interested in whether you can hear the rhythm guitar and the bass line right through the song, or how well the singer sings the tune, stuff like that, then you're 'Flat Earth'. If you are interested in how well the rear of the sound stage is illuminated and how black the blackness are and how slammy the slammy bits are, then you're 'Round Earth'.

It's my experience that using Naim doesn't make you 'Flat Earth'. And 'PRaT' is a Round Earthism.

Paul

OJ

One fairly good indicator of whether or not a component has Flat Earth or Round earth attributes is in the reviews in the Mags. If the reviewer mentions "rhythm" or "timing" then it may well be a "Flat Earth" product, even if it has all the attributes of "Round Earth" as well. If they don't mention it at all then usually it is a "round earth" only product. Have a look at some of your old mags and see what you think. Of course it isn't 100% reliable.

Yours in Music

Syd

Round earthers want to hear where a musician is on the stage. Flat earthers want to hear why they are on stage.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nime:
And still nobody has satisfactorily explained why flat and round earth attributes are mututally exclusive.

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I expect anyone who thought they were would change their mind after hearing the newer range of Naim amps - e.g. 552/500. Older, lesser Naim components are also good at both, in my experience, but only if the system is painstakingly set up and maintained.

While there are good historical reasons for the use of flat and round Earth I think "musical" and "sonic" would be much easier for newcomers to hi-fi to understand.

[This message was edited by JeremyD on FRIDAY 27 February 2004 at 15:14.]

The difference is "HiFi" versus MUSIC. When I was shopping for gear, I was listening for openness, and imaging and all that sort of thing. Then I heard a Naim rig (CD5/112/150) and it just sounded GOOD. I was listening in the dealer's shop with a lady friend, and we started pouring through all the demo CDs he had there (after listening to several of my own) because the MUSIC just sounded so GOOD. This told me I should trust my instincts and go with Niam, and I never even heard the Krell integrated that another dealer was getting in for me to audition.

-M

This debate reminds me of the heated debate umpteen years ago in HI FI News. They had just released a version of their Test Record and one of the Tracks was a recording of an Up and Over Garage Door being opened. This was to show how dynamic your system was. For months the debate raged in that magazines columns and letter pages and spilled out into other mags as well. People were changing their systems if it did'nt sound right on a bloody garage door. Too me this was the epitomy of Round Earth. I'm not knocking dynamics BTW. Any body else remember it and have any anecdotes.

Yours in Music

Syd

Todd, I think you are completely wrong. You are suggesting that Naim amps distort the signal and that causes the phenomenon of 'PRaT'. This is simply untrue.

(I don't speak for James, but I doubt he's working towards more distortion.)

Stop worrying about 'why', just look at whether your musical taste widens or narrows. The former means you are on the right track.

Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by syd:
This debate reminds me of the heated debate umpteen years ago in HI FI News. They had just released a version of their Test Record and one of the Tracks was a recording of an Up and Over Garage Door being opened. This was to show how dynamic your system was.

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The newly released Triangle Demo CD contains that 'garage door' opening as well as glass shattering tracks.

I couldn't believe people still do this shite. At least I got the good laugh out of 'em however.

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
If you are interested in how well the rear of the sound stage is illuminated and how black the blackness are and how slammy the slammy bits are, then you're 'Round Earth'.

It's my experience that using Naim doesn't make you 'Flat Earth'. And 'PRaT' is a Round Earthism.

---

Pardon me, but I didn't realise a lower noise floor is 'round earth' thing. By separating power supply a la Naim, this is exactly what it does. ( blacker background ) Personally, I think it improves the dynamics and can't be categorised as either flat or round earth attributes.

The term 'flat earth' has got to be related to the depth projection. Naim and Linn stuff have comparatively shallower depth rendition than most hi-end counterparts.

but I agree flat/round thing is about listening habits. I thouht that the Naim users would be less *geeky*, but so far my observation proves me wrong.

quote:

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Pardon me, but I didn't realise a lower noise floor is 'round earth' thing. By separating power supply a la Naim, this is exactly what it does. ( blacker background )

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It's a round earth thing when you sit and think, 'blimey, this FanciCap has made the black bits blacker' and a flat earth thing when you sit and think 'Trout Mask Replica, timeless classic!'

quote:

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The term 'flat earth' has got to be related to the depth projection.

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No, it's a disparaging term coined by the importers and supporters of Krell, Magnepan, Oracle, Audio Research, Koetsu etc in the early 80s. The 'new' stuff sounded nothing like music but was greatly appreciated by the misguided.

Paul

quote:

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Just because Naim chooses filters that cut ultrasonic response in a manner that enhances PRaT, doesnt mean the music is distorted.

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You are assuming a cause-effect that is unsubstantiated.

If you remove audible information from a signal then I think 'distortion' isn't too harsh a term. Certainly such a process has no place in a 'hifi'.

Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
No, it's a disparaging term coined by the importers and supporters of Krell, Magnepan, Oracle, Audio Research, Koetsu etc in the early 80s. The 'new' stuff sounded nothing like music but was greatly appreciated by the misguided.

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Right. But they do render deeper soundstage than Naim. Hence, 'flat earth'?

I don't know about 'nothing like music', but they do different things from what Naim offers.

'Flat Earth' because of a mythical group of people who weren't progressive enough to see the world was actually round and that Columbus wouldn't fall off.

In this case the better allegory is the Emperor's New Clothes.

Paul

Another definition: A recording or hi-fi system's flat-earth properties are those that depend on the musicians and the instruments they play. Its round-earth properties are everything else.

However, this fails to account for the fact that some self-designated flat-earthers consider tonal colour / timbre to be irrelevant, despite the fact that it is a function of instrument and musicianship, so this definition is clearly not adequate for them.

My experience leads me to believe that many people, even today, are unaware that better hi-fi systems are actually musically better. They think of one system being better than another only in terms of round-earth properties, not because they are necessarily unmusical but because they have only heard systems that differ from each other, primarily, in round-earth ways.

Only an extremist minority of flat earthers think there is something positively wrong with a system if, in addition to flat-earth qualities, it has round-earth ones.

quote:

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Originally posted by JeremyD:
Only an extremist minority of flat earthers think there is something positively wrong with a system if, in addition to flat-earth qualities, it has round-earth ones.

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Ditto.

Rabid so-called flatearthers are bad as round earthers. thier sonic priorities differ but extreme and absolute POV taken by both are very similar.
i.e. their way or no way.

Gentlemen(?)

"IT don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing!"

When I discovered Naim I also auditioned other brands. These could present the music in a very pretty way. Big spacious and admireable. Very beautifull.

I never thought about how Naim sounded. I was far too busy dancing, singing, "airplaying" instruments, conducting, grinning, looking for that CD that I had not heard in ten years etc.


It was a pretty easy choice.

Bit like the beautifull model flat on her back, vs. the very spirited and open minded miss averagelooks.
Number one is good for impressing the mates, number two keeps you away from them

I had this experience by listening to different amplifiers. So I'd say: No, flat vs. round earth is not down to the speakers.

My two cents on round vs flat earth. Knowning very little about technical stuff.

Regards.
Peter

"Damn braces; bless relaxes"

quote:

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The bandwidth limitation is something you won't hear in the frequency domain, not unless you are a bat

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James.....to my ears the top end of the CDS2 is audibly rolled off, ie mising HF detail I can easily hear with my Meridian CDP...perhaps I may be mistaking another artefact...?

quote:

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But new Naim stuff do all those *round earth* things well,too.

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So does the Olive range ....if set up correctly

Laurie S

FWIIW, my limited understanding suggests that transient response is fundamentally critical to good music reproduction.....detail, seperation, and "speed" follow directly from this, and that Naim achieve this holy grail by erring slightly (emphasis here) towards overdamping....that is why measuring frequency response with a sine wave sweep, and discussing measured bandwidth give such poor correlations with "musicality"....anyone with more electronics knowledge than me care to correct me?

Laurie S

quote:

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Round earthers want to hear where a musician is on the stage. Flat earthers want to hear why they are on stage.

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Good one Marcus

Does this flat/round/egg shaped earth matter really?
Surely its a case of ya either like the sound or don't?
Naim kit makes my feet tap. Its got rythmn. other kit can sound more analytical - as if its peeling back layers, but then it seems to lose something when doing that IMO.

My mate has bryston/TAG/B & W kit. It no doubt is very revealing, but only to a point. In two channel my Naim stuff sounds far more musical and exciting - but then again I would say that wouldn't I?

We have the new Triangle Demo CD and the
dynamics of the garage door track can be
quite shocking on a great HiFi. If anyone
wants a copy of the triangle disc drop us
a note and we'll try to send them out for
$5.00 Canadian for postage costs.

Thanks,
Bryan
The Gramophone
Edmonton Canada
info@gramophone.ca

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
'Flat Earth' because of a mythical group of people who weren't progressive enough to see the world was actually round and that Columbus wouldn't fall off.

In this case the better allegory is the Emperor's New Clothes.

Paul

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Perhaps this link will help explain the origins of the flat earth analogy.

Flatland

Even if not, it is an interesting little story.

Steve

Hy there!

I want to go for realistic music reproduction.
this means:all frequencies. (as far as audible)
at the exact time( no phaseshifts)
nearby realistic loud (no distortion at higher levels)

if this works on my listener place it wil be all perfect.

being this my thread i think the biggest faults
will come out of the reaction speakers vs. listener room (the only thing that is not measurable producing hifi components,not knowing the rooms of the customers and how they put the speakers there.)

round earth sound is a kind of fault.
flat earth is a kind of fault.
if the sound is realistic you will not notice
those things.Why? Going to a classical concert there will never be round earth and flat earth
discussion,so why should there be one in a theoretical 1to1 reproduction.sitting in front
of a stereo and noticing it sounding round or flat earth is always a hint that there is something wrong (or better out of balance) in music reproduction.
only my suppose:maybe flat earth means more faults in how loud different frequencies are reproduced (tonal colouration?)
maybe round earth means more faults concerning
exact times frequencies are reproduced(phase shifts?)
And imo most important is the word earth means
the whole thing and not a part of it.
so i personally go for earth sound.including all round and flat things in one formula.does not matter if one or two dimensional.

and there is definitly no third vertical dimension in the way our sytems reproduce stereo .

quote:

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Paul, it's definately cause-effect.

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Filtering ultrasonics enhancing 'PRaT' is your theory. There is no indication that it is a good theory.

If it were a then surely all CDs would PRaT like gooduns, with their total lack of ultrasonics?

Paul