Is Mozart Any Good?!

I know very little about this but what I do know is that of the 20 or so classical albums I have this is by far the best.

Mozart: Piano Concertos Nos. 6, 17 & 21 / Géza Anda






SJB

Well, you'll get a pretty unreserved yes from me, but then I like opera too.

If Fredrik comes along, he will no doubt extol the virtues of Mozart's piano concertos which are certainly among the finer things he wrote.

You might like to take a look at the good classical threads thread (which has some good Mozart recommendations).


However, if you're lukewarm about Mozart, I'm not sure buying a complete set of piano concertos is all that sensible. I have (or have owned in the past) all three sets you mention. The Perahia has had rave reviews but I could never get on with it. I find his pianism too percussive and I don't think he gets nearly such a good sound out of the ECO as any of the other sets I've heard the ensemble on. Barenboim's Berlin recordings are quite fine (though his earlier ECO ones are too, and they have the bonus of the first 4 concertos which, though not entirely by Mozart, have some lovely moments). The BPO are on fine form and the set is well worth the money. There are no real duff readings, and some that are quite fine indeed, but it wouldn't come with me to my desert island. The bonus DVD is worth watching - it has the 2 and 3 piano concertos with Solti, the ECO and Schiff. I've just recently acquired the Ashkenazy, and I must correct you, in that it's with the Philharmonia (at least for the most part). It's about as complete as any set can be: the 4 early concertos are there, as are 2 and 3 piano ones and the two rondos. Barenboim shows up with the ECO for the 2 and 3 piano concertos (with Fou Ts'ong on hand as well in the latter). Much as I'm enjoying, I think I'd probably class it in much the same league as Barenboim's Berlin one. And in the later concertos I'm finding him a little overly percussive and not quite so winning as I did in the early works. However, if you must have a complete set (well ish, since it omits the 2 and 3 pianos, the four early concertos and one of the rondos), I would pick Mitsuko Uchida's with the ECO conducted by Tate (I tend to prefer readings that have a conductor, rather than being directed from the keyboard, though there are exceptions). Some fine it overly pretty, but I think it's wonderful. Of course, all these comments are, to be honest, rather too generalised to be all that much use.

Not to be ignored are the four discs Brendel has recorded with Mackerras and the SCO, all of which are rather special, not least the disc of 12&17. But the both are top class Mozart interpreters (I was luck enough to hear Uchida/Mackerras and the Philharmonia in the 25th concerto the other evening while down in London).


regards, Tam

Mozart is one of the greats, there's no doubt. It's unfortunate that you don't like opera, because that's one of Mozart's greatest strengths. Don Giovanni, Le Nozze, Die Zauberflote, Cosi fan Tutti, Idomeneo - all are amazing.

After that, his piano concertos are among his best works. Of the three sets you mentioned, Barenboim's would be my first choice. But there are so many choices in this repertoire. Break away into single discs, with a focus on concerto 20 and later, and you can have many good experiences.

Other works of note include the string quintets, the piano trios, some of the violin sonatas, the Requiem (well, almost any of his choral music), and of course his symphonies. 29 and above there are what you should focus on.

To the piano works: I too prefer others (LvB, Schubert, Schumann, some others), but done right, Mozart's solo piano music is fine. If you want more impact, consider Friedrich Gulda. If more refined energy, Lili Kraus (on Music & Arts). If more straight-ahead, then Walter Klien or Klara Wurtz. There's much to enjoy.

--

Dear Droo,

Mozart's Piano Sonatas appeal to me less than most of Mozart's output, but one day I may understand them - my problem nd not Mozart's!! Far prefereable for me are Sonatas of old Haydn, but that is probably a completely personal response. John McCabe made a complete set on Decca [of the Haydn] which is admirable in every way, and fully plumbs the depth of the music.

As Tam has pointed out, apart from opera, Mozart's greatest works are arguably among his Piano Conceretos. I would really avoid getting a complete set. Well not for a start, but get to know, rather well, one or two discs of concertos. SJB has posted one of the best for an entree. If you find you enjoy this, then move on to the remainder, but still one disc at a time. I am happy to contribute more recomedations, and searches under Clara Haskil, and under Edwin Fischer will turn up several posts by me, and others which may help.

Of the modern Pianists, only Anda seems to me to get some of what Haskil and Fischer brought to making the music live, but I know Tam enjoys Uchida's readings, and Brendel's, and these are indeed well regarded, so my preference elsewhere is not to be counted against them.

I hope that I may be able to provide a few recomendations if you want. Just post here and I will try to think sense for you!

ATB from Fredrik

[PS: Off topic, but my best listening has always been done without any sound at all. Concerning Platonism. All I need is to know the work entirely, and then I can listen to it in my mind's ear much better than any replay! In reference to the thread in the other place, where I am not saying anymore. That was my last Thread there!]

Some excellent advice here already - On reflection I will carry on as before, one CD at a time, starting with one of the recommended piano concerto discs. I have a weakness for boxed sets, especially if they're on sale, but I think that in this case, I must resist it!

Fredrik - yes, Haydn! I meant to say in my original post that I much prefer the Haydn I have heard (mostly string quartets, the odd piano trio) to the Mozart - yet the former sometimes appears to be in the latter's shadow. The Haydn I've heard seems to radiate good cheer, and joy in the act of artistic creation, without ever appearing superficial. McCabe's set of the piano sonatas is high on my list of CDs to buy - maybe in the next month or two.

Still on the topic of Haydn's piano sonatas - and yes, I know I'm hi=jacking my own thread! - this set looks interesting, and a bargain to boot. Anyone familiar with it?

Haydn - Piano Sonatas

Regarding Platonism - I assume that this fine inner ear is a musician's gift Fredrik? Not having any such musical ability, I find that however, enjoyable the music in my head is, there comes a point where I have to listen to its physical realisation in sound. In fact, I often find that when I have a piece of music in my head all day, I have to play it as soon as I get home. Thank goodness for Naim, at such times!

drood -

i listen to every conceivable type of music (including lots of opera - don giovanni!! -, when the mood strikes), and some of my favorite listening moments have been spent on mozart's piano concertos played on fortepiano - i'm not suggesting you go out and buy a series, just reporting my experience. perhaps an acquired taste. they were written for this instrument, the modern piano not having been invented until much later (is that the proper use of the subjunctive? oh well ...). there is controversy about playing bach's harpsichord works on modern piano, but not so much about playing mozart on modern piano, partly as the fortepiano has become a curiosity or something seldom found outside of music academia. i can suggest anthony newman's sonatas played on fortepiano, but i also agree w/ fredrik that these pieces are on one level somewhat impenetrable - but, i would submit, perhaps less so on fortepiano.

anyway, one of the points of this post is that the same is true for haydn - no piano then, fortepiano only. i am quite an admirer of haydn's, and really enjoy a lot of his "solo keyboard" stuff. certainly few composers wrote more pieces, and his place in music history is critical, in my view. i can recommend malcolm bilson's recording of same. cautionary note: have not listened to every fortepiano version.

good luck w/ mozart - don't give up. i know some of it seems pretty fluff, but i see it more as "jewel-like perfection in the employment of the classical tonal scale." mozart said that he didn't compose anything, just wrote down what he heard going through his head. how can you not love a guy like that?

fiddy

Easy question - answer Yes. Joannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart a.k.a Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart was a great composer. He only lived until he was 35 and by the time he was my age he'd been dead nearly 20 years - but look at the catalogue: it's phenomenal.

Please listen to



I bought them, but you could get them from a public library - it may change your mind on Opera. I can't argue why Mozart is great, but I think if you listen to the music then it will provide the answer for you. If you can see a Mozart opera live then it's even better. Think of rock groups who try to put on a spectacular show and then think of Mozart opera - it's the finished product: an experience just waiting for you to enjoy.

You could also try



I guess even Mozart is subjective, but you have to agree you have pretty damn good to create music of this calibre that still gets played regularly more than 200 years after you die.

I have no expertise in this area of music (or any area really) - I just find Mozart very worthwhile and easy to like.

If anybody can argue sensibly why he isn't good then I'll be stunned.

Drood - well, the (solo) keyboard music of Bach and Beethoven generally IS more profound than Mozart's, but some choice sonatas are up there with the best. Brendel is in the process of sorting the wheat from the chaff, and I'd direct you to two CDs: one containing K 310, 311 & 533, the other K332, 333 & 457. If you're still not convinced by Mozart's sonatas after that then they're simply not for you! A lot of performers still tend to get taken in by the superficial grace of Mozart's lines, but Brendel isn't one of them.

Like Fredrik (and Brendel himself!), I tend to prefer Haydn, however!

COMPLETE recordings of Mozart's piano concertos will contain much that is of minority interest. You'd be better off with the Brendel/Marriner "Great Concertos" on Philips Duo which combines budget price with a process of sorting. Probing performances that will convince the yet-to-be-convinced!

EW

I find the Clarinet Concerto one of the most indescribably beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. As soon as I hear the opening bars I float off in a sort of trance.

And Frederik I used the technique you describe on many occasions when I was a student trying to cope with the most boring Saturday job ever. I used to survive by playing the entire works of Led Zeppelin and The Who in my head. Not quite your cup of tea I'm sure but it worked for me!

Have a watch of and a listen to the film Amadeus, ignore the american dentistry, enjoy the fictionalised take on Mozart composing the Requiem Mass towards the end of the film. Enjoy the spoof of his operas.

Then a little bit later watch it again - after a while more bits of Mozarts work will be come interesting for you.

Then go to Vienna and spend some time there and fully absorb the atmosphere - take in an opera- by standing at the back of the stalls for a relatively small amount of money. Then follow the advice given in this thread.

Before you kick Mozart to the sideline, I'd at least make sure you listen to few of my all time Mozart favorites---Clarinet concerto,Symphonia Concertante K.364 for viola/violin, his 2 piano quartets, his String Quintet K.593, his string quartet K.421, his wind divertimento K.361, the Requiem, the piano concerto No.20 K.466......

He's not done much recently though!

I thought he did well and looked pretty spry a few years ago in "Amadeus"...

Dear Howard,

He died on what would 170 years later become my birthday! That's why! But my favourites from Mozart are priceless to me. When someone does better in our own time I will be startled and very pleased.

Really the problem is where to start in modern classical music after Bach, Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart and Schubert. The Romanticists got heavier and heavier [and louder] in their works but then there was a reaction from which we still have not recovered...

So long as the music of the old Masters can still speak to successive generations, then it retains its validity, and we do not need to worry too much that it is old. It becomes a museum piece when it no long speaks directly to us.

In many ways some of the early Baroque composers do no longer speak to us as they did to their contempararies. Buxtehude may be an example of this, though his works bring pleasure to a small number of people even now.

ATB from Fredrik

quote:

So long as the music of the old Masters can still speak to successive generations, then it retains its validity, and we do not need to worry too much that it is old. It becomes a museum piece when it no long speaks directly to us.

Amen to that. Though I am often, and increasingly, struck by how "modern" Bach sounds. Then again categories such as "ancient", "modern", "classical" and so forth are of limited use in approaching great music, or great art generally - they tend to make us lazy, or - even worse - blind us to a true experience of the crucial matter - the thing itself.

quote:

I guess even Mozart is subjective, but you have to agree you have pretty damn good to create music of this calibre that still gets played regularly more than 200 years after you die.

I have no expertise in this area of music (or any area really) - I just find Mozart very worthwhile and easy to like.

If anybody can argue sensibly why he isn't good then I'll be stunned.

ROTF - just to reassure you, my views on art and aesthetic judgements (which are inspired by Kant, insofar as I understand him) preclude the easy option of writing everything off as purely subjective. Contrariwise, aesthetic judgements are not objective in the same sense that scientific jusgements are. Instead, they occupy a curious hybrid midle ground - expressions of our subjective responses, that nevertheless lay claim to universal assent - or at least, it's reasonable for us to hope that others can be guided to experience what we have experience.

Which is all a long-winded way of saying that I'm quite prepared to accept that I'm wrong about Mozart - I almost certainly am. My original post was deliberately provocative

The key to understanding Mozart is to realise that he is above all a composer of opera; and his instrumental music is a form of instrumental opera. His chamber music will suddenly snap into focus for you when you hear the voices and characters in them! (A colourful world of narrative, drama and suggestion opens up in place of a rather polite-sounding formal monologue.)

EW

quote:

He's not done much recently though!

Forgot these

I do enjoy a lot of Mozart's work. What is astonishing is the sheer volume of stuff that he produced in such a short life. None of that difficult second album nonsense for him! It is inevitable that the quality is slightly variable, but mostly it is wonderfully melodic and easy on the ear, without being 18th century muzak.

I hadn't thought of listening to it as per earwicker's thoughts, but I shall now. I think his choral music is generally wonderful, and his operas are still fresh today.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
I do enjoy a lot of Mozart's work. What is astonishing is the sheer volume of stuff that he produced in such a short life.

There's a wonderful quote from Tom Lehrer "It's a sobering though that by the time Mozart was my age he'd been dead for two years".


EW's comments are very interesting, and I must confess I'd never thought of Mozart's music that way (must listen to some non-opera tonight with that in mind).


Todd, while I agree that opera is one of Mozart's great strengths, do you really think Idomeneo merits inclusion in that list, nice as it is, it isn't really on the same level as the great four. Indeed, I would argue it's less fine than Clemenza (although that is not without its problems, excellent though the Mozart bits are, the bits he didn't write drag it down somewhat).


regards, Tam