P9 vs Naimed LP12 or ????

Perhaps the first question is to ask what, if anything, you feel you are missing from your P9. You might well find that a cartridge swap will cure any ills.

You'll find just a few strongly held opinions on the subject in this forum. I think the only legitimate advice is to advise that you hear your P9 against a Naimed LP12 and perhaps a Xerxes X/Clearaudio/Michell Orbe/new P9/etc.

I've heard the P9 extensively and it is very good, although I prefer my Naimed LP12. Others, like Joe Petrik, don't agree. That said, a better cartridge will pay dividends with the P9--it is plenty good enough to use with the very best cartridges.

As far as the VPI TNT being an "upgrade" from a Naimed LP12--no, it is not. The TNT does not begin to compete with the LP12 in the sheer musical involvement category, even if it offers better sonics. Musically speaking, your P9 leaves the TNT for dead. The TNT is a well made TT that majors more on "round earth" type stuff; although it is not as handicapped at timing/tunefulness as some others I've heard.

Regards,

Bo

This question can be settled only by doing a dem, ideally in your own home.

The only advice I will give is that if you're keeping the P9, try a Dynavector XX-2. Granted, the Benz is warm and juicy, which nicely complements the P9's lean presentation, but it's giving you only a hint of what the table can do musically.

Joe

There is no dissatisfaction with my P9. It sounds wonderful. My curiosity comes more from sourcing funds from the sale my CDS1. My record collection has grown from 400 to about 1,200LPs and my CD collection has shrunk from 600 to 200CDs at almost a break-even economically. Do I just pocket the cash from my CDS1 or can I improve my vinyl source? I gave vinyl a try by jumping in with the P9 as it was highly recommended and relatively inexpensive relative to say a fully Naimed LP12. The lack of setup issues also attracted me to the P9. I didn't have the opportunity of hearing many TT first because the retailers in my city carry a very limited supply and the best I heard was a Rega P25 and a fully Linned LP12 in a non-Naim system before I went for the P9.

I would love to hear all of the TT Joe listed but practically I don't think I will get a chance unless I go to a major city and even then it will probably be in a system other than Naim. That's why I am looking for opinions.

John

I don't know what your cartridge is like. I use the Exact, but I like the fast and lean sound of the TT with this combo. The LP12 is too lush for me, but it certainly has its charm. I've heard that some of the Ortofon cartrdiges work well with the RB900, so they may be worth a listen.

I think it would be wise to investigate the options you have with the P9 before going down the LP12 route.

Good luck

John

If you don't have one already, I can e-mail you an LP12 dealer's guide. It'll give you a taste of the operational side of the LP12.

FWIW, I'm a Rega man. The P9 is the best at what it sets out to do- giving the owner a musical thrill ride.

FWIW, I happen to prefer a full-monty LP12 to a P9 (but then I have not heard the 2002 model yet). I was in a similar position, but in my case I'd had a disaster with my full-monty LP12 and was looking to the P9 as an alternative worthy of demo. I really wanted to love the P9, but alas it didn't do much for me. The full-monty Xerxes and mid-range Clearaudio decks were the ones which stood out, and I ended up with an Evolution which (with careful setup - very very important) is considerably better than my old LP12, and for less than the cost of a brand new Naim'd LP12.

Of course, at this level most decks have merit, and it really boils down to your own preferences, priorities, the rest of your system and the nature of the vinyl you'll play (e.g. good quality, s/h, audiophile, 10" mono jobs from the 50s, etc. etc.)

Good luck!

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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Would a fully Naimed LP12 clearly outperform my P9? or are the differences more subjective?

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Definitely subjective. I love both decks, though they are radically different.

The Naim’d LP12 is full, warm and slightly romantic sounding. IMHO it definitely imparts its character onto the sound, though with some music this really works. It really is a great sounding deck. The downside is that it is an ergonomic nightmare (do you really want to cue an expensive cartridge without a cuing device on a unipivot mounted on a bouncy subchassis?). More importantly it can’t play 45s, and some of the best music is to be found rotating at this speed.

P9, Like Joe I went to a P9 from a LP12, though a far lower spec one than he did (Valhalla / Ittok). The P9 is far leaner and less romantic, tonally it is marginally more lush than a competent CD, but this is not what the P9 is about. Where this deck excels is in pitch and timing, the pitch stability is the best I have ever heard of vinyl – piano sounds rock solidly in tune which to my ears it never does on a LP12 (or any other subchassis deck), and the P9 grooves like a bastard. Mine is partnered with a comparatively low end Ortofon MC25FL and I have a Expressimo Heavy Weight in place of the stock Rega one. This deck IMHO represents absurdly good value for money. I would not swap it back for a LP12. An additional advantage is that the P9 is comparatively non-ferrous / non-metal – radically less so than a LP12, so the adverse effects on nearby electronics is very much minimised.

System synergy has a massive part to play, I have never really considered that my P9 was the ideal match for my Kans, they both bring too much of the same to the table resulting in a sound that needs very careful setup to get any sense of fullness or body. The P9 is however a stunning match with the Neats I plan to buy as soon as I can find a bloody job…

Tony.

I listened to LP12, P9, Xerxes, Gyrodec at the time of purchase. I liked all of them! The sound for pound equation did enter into it of course and for what I paid for the P9 and Exact at the time was a much better option than the LP12.

What I liked about the p9 was the set it up and leave it factor and of course the energetic sound. I had a Systemdek IIX900 before and always found that the subchassis never stayed level! Pain in the arse!

7 years later I still love the P9!

I would seriously try some different cartrides before you change the deck.

Never heard a P9 on Mana. May try it myself!

Tony, I'm curious as to whether the P9's power supply has any of the dreaded 'Lingo effect'. I gather the design has similarities to the Lingo (?) - one of the advantages of the Armageddon, of course, is that it slots in perfectly with Naim electronics generally. I hated the Lingo/Ekos in retrospect. But I like what I've heard of the P9 (old and new) and am seriously considering getting one, if only to avoid the ergonomic nightmare of which you rightly speak.

My e-mail is johnlitt@infoserve.net

If you are interested send me an e-mail and we can talk outside the forum.

Mike Sae

Thanks for the offer, please e-mail me the LP12 dealer guide. This might give me an idea of what the LP12 is about.

Based on Tony's remark I might have gotten lucky jumping into vinyl with the P9. Pitch and timing are aspects of the sonics that I wouldn't want compromised.

John

The clearaudio clearly outperformed the Naimed LP12? What is the sonic character of the clearaudio? And in what ways did it outperform it? What was lacking in the P9 when you did your comparisons?

John

Thanks for the input. Without good timing and pitch, what does a TT provide? Sonic mush? I didn't know these were the strengths of the P9 because this has never been a factor that hits me when I listen. I personally don't mind compromising lush sonics if it means getting the timing and pitch correct. Does the pitch and timing become and issue when the LP12 becomes slightly out of tune?

Your comments also bring back memories when I auditioned the CDS2. I actually prefer the mucial presentation of the CDS1 over the CDS2. It has more of a PRaT emphasis and the CDS2 more of a lush presentation. So maybe I got lucky with jumping into vinyl with the P9.

I am curious what cartridges you have tried with the P9. Many people are promoting the Dynavector XX2 for the P9. The XX2 is a lot of money and I don't have the opportunity to hear one. Will this cartridge or others in this range bring huge improvements? What other cartridges should I consider?

John

In my system the P9 power supply caused some sonic problems. I managed to resolve them by plugging the unit into a different AC socket and am also using an adaptor that eliminates the ground prong.

John

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Tony, I'm curious as to whether the P9's power supply has any of the dreaded 'Lingo effect'. I gather the design has similarities to the Lingo (?) - one of the advantages of the Armageddon, of course, is that it slots in perfectly with Naim electronics generally.

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Best take a poll on this! I seem to recall both Vuk and Joe stating it had a big adverse effect, and I also seem to recall once hearing it have more of an effect than it does now – my Music Works Megablock seemed to radically reduce the adverse effect. The CDX actually impacts the P9 far more than the other way round, but that is a proximity issue – I plan to get additional spikes or longer spacers to get the deck further away from the CD. When I’m really getting serious with vinyl I just turn the CDX off. The picture below highlights the over close proximity of my two sources, but building my stand in this slightly strange manner does definitely work best in this system. Its even been blessed by the guru from Rochdale…

Tony.

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Does the pitch and timing become and issue when the LP12 becomes slightly out of tune?

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Right, the creaking sound you can hear is me removing the lid from a huge can of worms…

I personally agree with the old Roksan argument that no subchassis deck can ever be perfectly in tune as the arm is effectively on a spring. Slight rotation is possible with a subchassis deck – the armboard can move in backwards and forwards slightly in relation to drag felt at the stylus. No such movement is possible with a deck like a P9 or Spacedeck or whatever. One less variable to bugger things up.

The other thing is that if you walk in front of a LP12 on a wooden floor the deck bounces slightly, the bounce can be heard clearly as obvious pitch instability. Surely the effect of structure or air born feedback will have a similar but obviously reduced effect.

The above is only theory, the proof for me is that my P9 does piano far better than I have ever heard from any subchassis deck.

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I am curious what cartridges you have tried with the P9. Many people are promoting the Dynavector XX2 for the P9.

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I seemed to have really bad experience with Dynavectors, I really did not like either the 17D2 or XX1L that I tried in my P9, I found the 17D2 thin beyond belief (I believe current ones are a little better), and the XX1L sounded flabby, bloated and over warm – almost valve like. I suspect they were both a bad match for the 32.5 phono stage as others I respect have reported good results with both. It would have been interesting to try either with the Tom Evans stage I have now, it is in a whole different ballpark.

Tony.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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The clearaudio clearly outperformed the Naimed LP12? What is the sonic character of the clearaudio? And in what ways did it outperform it? What was lacking in the P9 when you did your comparisons?

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No, I didn't say that. The Clearaudio outperformed what I remembered of my own LP12/Lingo/Aro setup, not a fully Naimed LP12, but close to it. Unfortunately, due to the local Linn dealer no longer being a Naim dealer, hearing a fully Naimed LP12 was always going to be difficult, but I figured that the basic characteristic of the LP12 sound would be very similar, and any improvement would be fairly marginal given that both setups would be close to the 'full monty' LP12.

The Clearaudio is fairly neutral, being a non-suspended type, and has a tangential tracking tonearm. It's very detailed, good PRaT (better than my old LP12 was, and on a par with the P9 IMHO), slightly less-fast than the P9 in transients (never have I heard a deck as 'fast' as the P9) but more musical overall, and easier on less-than-perfect vinyl. It's strengths relative to both the LP12 and P9 are in its ability to 'disappear' without superimposing its character onto the music, which is both a good and a bad thing, but in balance is something I prefer these days.

Plus points, then: very musical, neutral, fast, great PRaT, stability, pitch, detail and RE attributes. Can be upgraded to mind-boggling levels (i.e. the Reference) as it's a modular system. Easy to adjust things (and hence customise its sound)

Minus points: Not as fast as the P9, a bit eclectic, very very very finicky about setup (but once done will remain done), no lid, no tonearm cable (so had to go through the pain of much demoing and extra expense). Easy to adjust things (and hence bugger it up).

In balance, it was the best deck I heard, but as I have always said, none of the decks I listened to were poor - they all had a lot to say for themselves, and no one deck was perfect. In balance, it will all be down to personal preference, and in my case I went with the plastic fantastic. Others might prefer the LP12 (which I had before) and in fact I'd have been perfectly happy to remain with my LP12/Lingo/Aro at Mana Phase 8 had the lot not come away from the wall.

In a nutshell, if you are paying three to four grand on a TT, a new LP12 (Naimed or otherwise) is not as good value as one would think. Secondhand, it can be a bargain, but the new prices are exorbitant, and things like the P9, Clearaudio, Xerxes and so on can at worst match it and sometimes better it for 2/3 the price.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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Originally posted by Vuk Vuksanovic:
Tony.

You need to purchase a Sekonic Studio incident light meter and avoid embarrassing over-exposure like this in the future.

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It's not overexposed enough however, as you can still see that nasty, horrible QS thing!

Regards
Steve

P.S. I use an L408 myself as I find it more versatile than a purely incident light meter.

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Perfection is an absolute quantity. Whilst I agree than the rigidity of the arm/platter interface is more solid on decks like the P9, to suggest that the same is springy on a suspended deck like the LP12 is absurd.

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Place your finger lightly on the rotating platter of your LP12 and watch the armboard jump forward in the plinth. This is the effect of obviously extreme drag. Now think of the size of the minute groove modulations and how little drag would be required to affect their exact measurement in relation to time. My (or more accurately Roksan’s) argument has nothing whatsoever to do with the rigidity of the platter / bearing / armboard and everything to do with springs and the general subchassis deck design concept.

Vuk:

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You need to purchase a Sekonic Studio incident light meter and avoid embarrassing over-exposure like this in the future.

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I have never once been embarrassed by over exposure. In this case I just pushed the levels in Photoshop so that the front panels of the Naim kit was clearly visible.

The Rochdale Guru:

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I did not bless the set up at Tony's.

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You did set it up! I demand you bless it immediately.

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I would not consider the P9 to groove like anything and love my fully naimed LP12.

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Ask Annie! Embarrassingly for Dave Annie completely “got” the P9

Tony.

You said, "There is no dissatisfaction with my P9. It sounds wonderful."

Seems to me that you are very happy with the presentation you're getting! Therefore my advice would be to maximize your current source, rather than looking for changes. The fact that the P9 is cheaper than the LP12 (or any other deck) does not necessarily mean that that other deck is better in the things you love about the P9.

However, improving the cartridge to a higher spec. Benz (since you like the combination) could bring huge benefits. Typically, higher spec cartridges have a similar presentation, but usually improved in their own way. Of course, this doesn't automatically mean it will improve. For example, your current cartridge may have just the right blend of pace, pitch and timing, and the higher spec Benz's presentation may move more towards pitch and lose a little in timing, so it remains a bit of a gamble. But generally, if the higher spec cartridge is designed with similar parameters to yours, then it should be a better version, giving you a real boost over your current combination. (There are exceptions where a company has been producing cartridges for so long that they have only redesigned some of their range, like Ortofon for example).

In my experience, the move to super cartridges is quite remarkable - you wouldn't believe what's available from those damned grooves!

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

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Unfortunately, due to the local Linn dealer no longer being a Naim dealer

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Would that be Russ Andrews by any chance?

Chris L

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Bob.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."