P9 vs Naimed LP12 or ????

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

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Place your finger lightly on the rotating platter of your LP12 and watch the armboard jump forward in the plinth. This is the effect of obviously extreme drag.

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I'm not an expert in LP12 physics, but this explanation seems daft. The platter, record, cartridge, tonearm, armboard, and subchassis are all one system and so the resistance of the needle in the groove is a static force - it will not cause the subchassis to twist on the springs.

The example of placing a finger on the platter while it is spinning would surely throw the pitch and timing off of *any* turntable and this fact does not allow the conclusion that the design of the turntable is at fault. Its a bit like saying, "I smacked my turntable and it fell off the stand. The design is obviously flawed - clearly the turntable should be bolted to the stand which in turn should be bolted to the floor. The whole thing is too springy otherwise."

I could be wrong on all this, but this is how it looks to me.

For John:

1) If your TT is doing so well that you are flogging your CDs and CDS, and

2) you cannot demo an LP12 combo, and

3) you like the no-fussness about your P9, then

don't bother with an LP12.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

[This message was edited by Greg Beatty on THURSDAY 14 March 2002 at 15:32.]

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The obvious solution would be to wall mount the LP12. Properly set up bounce is perfectly pistonic and should not change the relative distance between the motor pulley and the inner platter. If the bounce is twisted, then clearly the varying distance between the axes with each bounce will affect speed stability. I’d rather have some shock-absorption than none, particularly when the earth moves with some regularity here.

James

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However, the earth's motion resolves largely to horizontal movement. Wall mounting does not solve this problem, and the LP12 is very unstable in this direction.

--Eric

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Never my favourite dealer

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Hmm, strange, they used to be very good. My Dad bought his first Naim gear there in the early '80's and I bought my first "hi-fi" there in the late '80's.

I do know that at least of the partners has fairly recently retired. A decision, I'm told, that had much to with being forced down the AV route by Linn.

Chris L

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I'm not an expert in LP12 physics, but this explanation seems daft. The platter, record, cartridge, tonearm, armboard, and subchassis are all one system and so the resistance of the needle in the groove is a static force - it will not cause the subchassis to twist on the springs.

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Unless of course the motor were outside of this subchassis construction – i.e. mounted firmly to the plinth, which it is…

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The example of placing a finger on the platter while it is spinning would surely throw the pitch and timing off of *any* turntable and this fact does not allow the conclusion that the design of the turntable is at fault.

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Introducing sufficient drag to a P9 or Spacedeck or whatever non suspended deck will indeed cause the platter to slow down. Introducing sufficient drag to a suspended subchassis deck will cause the platter to slow down and cause the whole subchassis assembly to move relative to the motor / plinth. A whole extra variable.

Here is a simple experiment that LP12 users can all do at home:

Place a piece of sticky chewing gum on track two of your favourite LP.
Cue the arm mid way through track one. Watch carefully from a safe distance. At the point the cartridges cantilever is ripped out by hitting the chewing gum on track two the LP12 platter will slightly slow and the arm board will bounce forward in relation to the plinth. Were I insane enough to do the above on my lovely P9 my arm would stay in the exact same location, though obviously my platter will similarly slow. One less movement without a subchassis. This will prove my point.

Come on, there has to be a physicist out there who can back me up with some physicist speak – I know I’m right!

Tony.

PS I'm only arguing all this for fun - I do really like LP12s!

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Place a piece of sticky chewing gum on track two of your favourite LP.
Cue the arm mid way through track one. Watch carefully from a safe distance. At
the point the cartridges cantilever is ripped out by hitting the chewing gum on
track two the LP12 platter will slightly slow and the arm board will bounce forward
in relation to the plinth.

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Right. I think you forgot to add: "Install your new Koetsu Onyx Platinum cartridge first."

I remember a local dealer "proving" that digital was better than analog by taking a digital recording (a DVD movie) and putting it through a cheapie digital->analog converter. He then proudly showed that the new analog version (a VHS tape) sounded crap in comparison to the DVD original.

He was dumbfounded when I asked if he had ever compared a clean VHS original to a DVD original. He said it would be the same as the DVD he was starting with was perfect (!). Help me...pleazzze help me...

Re: the LP12...I'm not really sure. I have an LP12 but am definitely not an LP12 fanatic. The thing definitely has a sound that it imparts on the proceedings. I tried to buy a P9 first but had dealer problems.

It does strike me that a finger on the platter is not the same as resistance from something that is itself connected to the platter and the suspension system (um, like the record groove). Its a bit like sitting in your revolving desk chair and:

1) pushing off of the desk and setting your self spinning, vs.

2) pushing one hand against the other and trying to spin yourself.

At any rate, I remind myself that the suspension *is there for a reason* and that the deck sounds better with it than without it. So the suspension stays in my LP12

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

After reading through all this I can't help but conclude that you should stick with your P9 and consider new cartridge options for the future.

I don't think you are going to like the round earthyness of an LP12, especially in the context of an Aro. This is the CDS1 vs CDS2 argument all over again.

The only quesitons I think should be:
A new P9? or
Which cartridge? (I think I would vote for the Dynavector-XX2)
How much can I get for my CDS1?

Arthur Bye

I surprised to hear varying opinions on the Dynavector XX2. Some of them are quite harsh. Any opinions as to why people either rave or dump on this cartridge. What other cartridges at this level should I consider. What about the Lyra Helikon, Benz Ruby??

John

Forget about the Helikon in the RB900. I tried this cartridge in my P9 with negative results. Thin and pale describe the sound. Messing around with VTA and VTF didn't help either. Really sounded quite bad.

Others I spoke with led me to the conclusion that the cartridge was incompatable with the arm/table.

Sometimes there simply is no synergy. This is one example.

The same cartridge on an Aro/LP12/geddon was a completely different beast. With virtually no set up it sounded incredible. Then it got better.

Go figure.

Arthur Bye

As you will also if you try and find the new one, since the nearby dealer I would expect to take it on is reluctant to make the investment. A shame, in view of Rega's reputation and the potential quality of the deck. He says it's partly because Rega is perceived in the UK as a 'value' brand, therefore wealthy punters would be unlikely to show an interest. I would have thought that threads like this would prove the reverse.

However, I intend to get hold of one fairly soon and report on a comparison to my LP12/Geddon/Aro/ and, er, XX2.

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Rega is perceived in the UK as a 'value' brand, therefore wealthy punters would be unlikely to show an interest.

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Perhaps remind him that there's trainloads of middle-class punters with actual taste who are ready, willing and just barely able
Granted, the New P9 is in some pretty lofty territory price wise- one could buy a new LP12, Hyperspace, tarted up Gyrodec and so on...

Can't wait for your comparo results.

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Granted, the New P9 is in some pretty lofty territory price wise- one could buy a new LP12, Hyperspace, tarted up Gyrodec and so on...

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Can't speak for the Hyperspace or Gyrodec, but a new P9 should be considerably better than a similarly priced (and therefore low-spec) LP12. Have you seen Linn's ridiculous prices recently?

An LP12/Lingo/Ekos-II/Arkiv would hurt you for about £4500. A full-monty Naim'd LP12 would set you back £3000 before cartridge as well. The P9 is around £2000, IIRC, and an equivalent LP12 would be:

LP12/Valhalla/Akito II/no cart (£2000ish, if you can still get the Valhalla and/or Akito these days)

So, if you're buying new, the P9 makes MUCH more sense. If you're forced into buying new (such as I was re: my insurance claim), you'll find that at the current new prices, the LP12 is a lot less competitive than it used to be...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

- GregB
Happy LP12 Owner

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TC said: Can't speak for the Hyperspace or Gyrodec, but a new P9 should be considerably better than a similarly priced (and therefore low-spec) LP12.

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Just to clarify, I know the New P9 will spank a Hyperspace, Gyro or mid-line LP12. I just wanted to list some other decks in the same price bracket, which well-to-do punters will inevitably prefer purely on looks.

Naturally. I've never heard any of the aforementioned decks.*

*except for the old P9 and Gyro SE, in totally different contexts.

It's no wonder you sold all your kit.

To each his own, I guess.

Judd

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."