Pop music in our music collections

Posted by: Steve Toy on 03 October 2001

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
So, your musical collection is one of the following? :-

Not even slightly. You seem to imply that the alternates are to listen to pre-pubescent school girl music / bland adult orientated rock / pop music from a bygone time (implying we must be out of touch), or even worse audiophile crap. Reading this forum will prove most here listen to intelligent and pretty cutting edge underground stuff that is happening right now. Many of us have collections built up over decades containing challenging music from many periods and of many different genres.

I for one am certainly no fan of the current manufactured and formulated boy / girl band pop "culture", it annoys me that the record labels perpetrate this brainless crap at a time where there is so much really interesting new music happening. The only benefit is that it is no longer necessary to endure TOTP each week!

For the record I do own some stuff that charts - Doves / Coldplay / Eminem / REM / Mercury Rev etc.

Tony.

PS Trivia point: Did you know its Andy McClusky ex of OMD who writes the Atomic Kitten pap.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Former member

quote:
No pop that I'd admit to, just lots of *audiophool* tinkly jazz, classical, folk and rock bands that you have probably never have heard of.

OY!

Steven - I have a feeling some of this is aimed at me. Since:-

1) I did point out to you that my whole system is geared to making John Coltrane, on So What, on KOB sound (to me - totally subjective) better.

2) You played some, erm - Bryan Adams I think, and appeared totally shocked that I had no idea who it was.

(OK - I do own a Madonna album.)

To pick up on Tony's point - we collect music of all types from all ages. Jazz (bebob, cool, latin especially) was from the end of WWII to the mid-fifties very much the pop of it's day.

I do feel like the stereotypical high court judge when I say I don't actually recognise many of the artist you list.

I will now ask the jury to retire - as indeed should I...

However - I have many albums from modern groups who I do recognise. Because if I heard and liked them I'd ask someone who they were and remember. I suspect many of the ones you mention I have heard an not bothered to enquire of their name.

Yeah, I think most of the stuff you listen to is bland pap. Maybe some of 'Britney Spears' output is almost listenable to (but lets think about her target market here - the under 12's I think) but compared with investing some time in some really great music makers - say any one of Charles Mingus, Mozart, Yello, Aphex Twin.. (just to give an idea of some of this years favourites) where I have heard and loved some stuff - but have become aware of more of their output - why the hell should I even begin to feel guilty about not listening to mindless pap pop of the most erksome nature?

If this attitude makes me a snob - then I'm a snob. Like I give a...

Jonathan
If there is anything more important than my ego round here, I want it caught and shot - NOW

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Pete

Perhaps a different definition of "pop" circles in your mind? Mine would include the Beatles and REM, neither of whom are exactly outisde the mainstream or unheard of, and in the case of REM still coming up with gems today.

I don't have anything against the sort of stuff you mention, but wouldn't choose to buy it: after all, I find it quite interchangeable and have a decent tuner. IMHO it's too bland to be considered actively bad: check out Mariah Carey, Michael Bolton and the like for truly noxious things that really offend my ears. Have you listened to something like XTC's Apple/Venus? It isn't actually that ancient at all, but may open out a whole new side of pop music you hadn't appreciated before, or even realised that they do "make them like that any more". Try the Lemonjelly.KY album: it's certainly pop and was actually recommended on the Forum by the manager of the naim record label IIRC. And on the subject of the naim label, the Foo Foo album is clearly in the pop camp, but far more interesting than Britney et. al. If naim are producing and recommending this sort of thing themselves it clearly isn't frowned upon to pump it through a nap 500!

Pete.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Pete

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
The only benefit is that it is no longer necessary to endure TOTP each week!
For the record I do own some stuff that charts - Doves / Coldplay / Eminem / REM / Mercury Rev etc.

Hi Tony, does that mean TOTP is no longer on? I haven't had a TV for ages now, so haven't endured it for a long time, but it was always fascinating how you had to watch it, even safe in the knowledge that it would be dreadful. The main point always seemed to be to say "Crap!" for just about every record in the countdown and moan about the state of the chart...

What's Eminem like? On my almost constant diet of R3/R4 I don't get to hear him, and have assumed that since he is a media sensation he probably isn't worth checking out.

Pete.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by woodface

It must be gre4at to have a quality Hi-fi system so that you can fully appreciate just how bad mindless manufactured pop really is! If you must listen to such utter garbage may I suggest you do it through a midi system because you will probably find it sounds really good!

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Former member

Hey - someone else who is living without a telly - excellent! Nine and a half months for me so far - how long is "for ages?"

RE: Eminem - despite diatribe (above) I have The Marshall Mathers LP, which I would strongly reccommend for the sense of humour in the lyrics, although the musical content (I find) is pretty good as well.

Definitely try it.

See what Tony says as well...

Cheers
Jonathan

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
Hi Tony, does that mean TOTP is no longer on?

Its still on, but as far as I'm aware it almost exclusively deals in manufactured boy / girl band crap. It seems that the days of every fifth record being by a remotely interesting act is long gone. At one time more left-field bands would appear on it, lets face it, even Can had a TOTP appearance once. I get the impression that deals are done relating to TV show tie-ins with the kids bands such as Steps, 5ive Hearsay etc, in which they get access to certain shows as payment for appearing on others. The bottom line is that the current groups that are absolutely massive on the indie scene such as Sigur Ros, Godspeed, Mogwai etc will never be represented on TOTP. The nearest TOTP will ever get to the cutting edge is to perhaps show a REM video, and as such can now be safely ignored (nowt wrong with REM though).

quote:
What's Eminem like?

IMHO very funny indeed. Kind of join the dots outrageousness and shock tactics combined with a deeply sick sense of humour. About half of each album is truly excellent (the other half is almost filler - he could have made one absolutely stunning album!). His sense of vocal timing is both amazing and hysterically funny. Both albums are great fun, though I would probably start with the first. If I were a kid today I would definitely be pissing my parents of with Eminem albums exactly the way I did with the Sex Pistols etc.

Tony.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Former member

quote:
What's Eminem like?

Not bad at all. As Tony/Johnathan have pointed out he's a bit extreme and his lyrics are a tad colourful but generally the Marshall Mathers LP is worth getting and is better than the Slim Shady LP.

As far as hip-hop goes though if you want more intelligent lyrics/musicality then check out Common, The Roots, Mos Def, De la Soul, Public Enemy & KRS One.

If you're just after that gangster thang though then Dr Dre's 2001 is much better IMHO than the Marshall Mathers LP.

Jonathan R

Soz if you already know but Richard D. James will be releasing another Aphex Twin LP soon if not already.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Pete

quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Ribee:
Hey - someone else who is living without a telly - excellent! Nine and a half months for me so far - how long is "for ages?"

Haven't had one for 3 or 4 years now, before that I happened to share a house with a communal TV, but didn't watch it much (Star Trek Next Generation, The Simpsons and, errrrr, that's it), and that after spending the 3 previous years without one.

I don't dislike TV, but I don't miss it at all if it isn't there. Quite happy to watch Simpsons, Thunderbirds and other Proper TV if I'm somewhere with one on. If I didn't have a radio though, that would be serious...

Pete.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Former member

Wai-lon

Thanks. Will check this lead out.
Recently got Polygon Windows.

Pete

Yeah - R4, I can take the p*ss out of the soap watchers for their low-brow slumming and then get in the car after work and listen to the Archers.
Missed it last night - must see how Emma is doing.

Jonathan

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Former member

Sounds interesting. Thanks again Wai-lon.

It is called Drukqs and is out in the UK on 22nd Oct in 2cd or 4 vinyl.

Importable from the US now for a couple of extra squids.

If the review on Amazon is anyway accurate it sounds like it might be very good.

One pre-order for Amazon from me - you should negotiate commission.

Thanks again

Jonathan

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Former member

Surfing on Sinewaves is a classic and was (IMHO) one of the best Artificial Intelligence albums released by Warp at the time (or ever maybe ??).

If you like the album and are interested in that early Warp thing then you might like Speedy J's "Ginger" & "G Spot", Fuse's "Dimension Intrusion" or Autechre's "Incunabula".

Cheers

P.S. Thanks for the Drukqs info.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
If you like the album and are interested in that early Warp thing then you might like Speedy J's "Ginger" & "G Spot", Fuse's "Dimension Intrusion" or Autechre's "Incunabula".

I'm in, and I'll raise you Bytes by Black Dog Productions.

Tony.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Steve Toy

I must say that my *audiophool* tinkly jazz comments were not directed at Jonathan, whose tastes are eclectic and varied, if I recall.
My definition of a musical snob can nicely be summed up by the opinion that pop will sound better through a crappy midi system.

This is patently untrue, although some pop music is mixed to sound better through portables, or on compressed FM radio. PR&T and good pitch is beneficial to pop as much as more *hi-brow* types of music.
If we want more people to get into the enjoyment of music in general, we need to blow away a few myths that a decent system will do nothing to enhance the enjoyment of pop - or the hi-fi industry may die.
The home cinema industry is already posing the biggest threat to music/hi-fi, not to mention musical elitism which denies the possibility of hearing your favourite pop and other tunes through a decent system.
Musical snobbery, IMHO, is essentially the pretention of enjoyment of jazz/classical music etc. to the exclusion of all types of more mainstream music.
It is possible to enjoy classical, jazz, etc. alongside many other musical genres, some mainstream, and others more obscure.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Pete

Good to see another sad bastard listens in to life in Ambridge. All so much more real in glorious naim-o-scope (tm), of course!

I missed last night too. Shame on me, but wanted to catch the RSNO doing Schosta 11 at the Caird Hall. Bit bloody intense, that one: Wow!

Pete.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Tony L

quote:
Musical snobbery, IMHO, is essentially the pretention of enjoyment of jazz/classical music etc. to the exclusion of all types of more mainstream music.

Having any form of taste can possibly be construed by those who haven't as being snobbery… I don't think Naim need worry too much about us lot alienating Steps, Hearsay, Bob the Builder etc fans as their average age is about 5. They are probably not key Naim buyers unless pocket money is radically higher than when I was a kid.

Tony.

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Pete

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Toy:

Musical snobbery, IMHO, is essentially the pretention of enjoyment of jazz/classical music etc. to the _exclusion_ of all types of more mainstream music.
It is possible to enjoy classical, jazz, etc. alongside many other musical genres, some mainstream, and others more obscure.

So Beethoven and Mozart aren't mainstream? Common classical repertoire is about as "mainstream" as you can get!

I don't see that enjoying something and not something else is necessarily snobbery. Saying the something else is objectively no good, possibly, but not enjoying it is a just a case of not enjoying it. I don't enjoy Mariah Carey: I don't resent people that do[1].

Pete.

[1] even if they are clueless and taste free... ;-)

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Nigel Cavendish

have recently featured, live (whatever that means these days) REM, Manic Street Preachers, and Radiohead..... yeah, you're right, it is crap.

cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Steve Toy

I think we may all agree that having a different taste in music to somebody else, is not a cue for any notions of superiority/inferiority complexes, or feelings of snobbery/inverted snobbery on the part of anyone here.
I just wanted to question a presumption that if you own a high-endish system, then you obviously don't listen to pop music.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by woodface

Steven, it was my post that made the midi system remarks and perhaps I am a music snob but I don't see anything wrong with having some level of discernment. Maybe I should have replaced the term pop with pap as this best describes most/all of the bands you mentioned. A quick cross section of my music collection would find many quality pop records (the Beatles, Beach Boys, REM, Pixies etc) as well as Jazz (I am only a recent convert). My remark about the midi system was based upon how you obviously have discernment in Hi-Fi but not music - are you an audiophile?

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Steve Toy

No I am not an audiophile, but my tastes in music are often very straight-forward. I like rhythms and melodies - which is what pop music seems to be about.
A midi system will not capture the tempo and the melodies of my choice of music as effectively as I would like.
It is amazing how music by the Vengaboys, Sash or Paul Van Dyke can seriously trip up a system's ability to resolve basslines and rhythms in general.
..and then there is a tune to hold!

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Former member

Snobbery: I will listen to my Oasis CDs on my 'kitchen radio' - a JVC radio/cd - but cannot stand them on my main system because it just shows up how badly recorded they are.

I cannot listen to radio 1 on my main system because the compression (after listening to 3 and 4) is just so terrible. Mmmm - and the content is probably another reason.

On the Warp front - I currently have...

Aphex Twin Caustic Window Compilation
Aphex Twin Classics
Aphex Twin Come to Daddy
Aphex Twin I care because you do
Aphex Twin Rephlex / AFX in his 3rd analogue bb
Aphex Twin Richard D James Album
Aphex Twin Selected Ambient Works Vol II
Aphex Twin Windowlicker

(Keep failing to find SAW I)

Autechre Amber
Autechre Autechre
Autechre Chiastic Slide
Autechre Incunabula

Polygon Window Surfing on Sinewaves

On my to buy list currently are:-

Black Dog Productions Bytes
BDP ?
Plaid ?
Speedy J Ginger
B12 ?
Fuse ?
Plastikman Sheet

I will add G Spot and Dimension Intrusion instead of the relevant question marks. Thanks yet again.

And finally - I'm missing The Archers again today waiting on a call back from the US. Damm.

Jonathan

(PS - Tony, you may recognise the to buy list from the last time we discussed this - your reccomendations all I think. Just haven't had a warp buying session since)

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Steve Toy

The recording quality of these recordings is, I believe, purposefully dire.
I try to avoid listening to Oasis anywhere!

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 04 October 2001 by Steve Toy

Jeremy,
Spiller features Sophie Ellis-Bexter, and her recent album, "Read my lips" is rather good too.
Alice Deejay's "Who needs guitars anyway?" album is actually produced by those same Dutch people who produced the Vengaboys - Danski and DJ Delmundo!
The similarities are rather obvious!

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 05 October 2001 by Steve Catterall

quote:
Snobbery: I will listen to my Oasis CDs on my 'kitchen radio' - a JVC radio/cd - but cannot stand them on my main system because it just shows up how badly recorded they are.

Oasis sounds great on my system - sounds like snobbery to me