freedom of speech

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
12 Years ago a chap in Russia by the name of Vladimir Zhirinovsky attempted the same trick in Russia under similar economic circumstances as Hitler. ...

History, fortunately, doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but lessons from it can be learnt nevertheless.

[...].

All of the above factors are necessary for the above catastrophic scenario. Al were present in the 30s in Germany. Fortunately not all were in 90s Russia.

Responsibility lies with all those behind all such factors both within and outside of any given nation state.

Dear Stephen,

The risk that someone in the Nationalist school of politics rising in Russia, has not entirely passed I would think.

You suggest that History 'can' teach us lessons... No, History's lessons, must be learned. That is why Henry Ford was wrong when he said, 'History is bunk!'

Again I am going to re-iterate what I said above about the responsibility for evil resting with the person (or governement) who (or that) perpetrate (or perpetrates) it, and not in the personal case, other individuals, or to Foreign Powers (pressumably the Governements of these Foreign Powers). If History teaches us anything it is that in peace negotiations, it is important to be, as Churchill noted, 'magnaninmous in victory.' The mistakes at Versailles do not justify the monstrous actions of the Nazi regime in the slightest, but one can see the wisdom of American aid to West Germany after 1945. On ewonders how much of this was the result of Churchill's understanding of the mistakes in 1919. almost wholeley I would think.

One has to examine the the reasons for the economic state Germany found itself in in the 20s and 30s. Primarily it was the catastrophy called the First World War. I would daresay that the responsibility for this lies with old Kaiser Wilhelm, and Bismark's rather detailed plan for Pan Germanism drawn up in the 1890s. Maybe the Allied negotiators were too tough on the old German Empire at Verailles, but the responisbilty for the catastrophy for the both World Wars and the Holocaust lies fairly and squarely with Germany's Governements of those days, whether we consider the German Empire led (in practice) by an odd cabal of military men and Kaiser Wilhelm, or the Nazi led Germany of the Third Reich. Of course it is possible to question how responsible a Nation's populace really is for the actions of its Government?

Are all British people individually responsible for Mr Blair's decision to help the US in the invasion of Iraq, for example, before the diplomatic efforts of the UN Weapons Inspectors were exhausted? I suppose that depends on how democratic the system of selecting that Government really was, and how answerable for its actions that Governement really is. In that respect I would say that it is clear that in UK the democratic legitimacy of the current regime is in fact non-existent, being elected (like most others) by a minority of the electorate, and then certainly not either considering correct procedure or or public opinion in the case of the invasion of Iraq. If they are not thrown out at the next election, I do think the UK populace will be responsible for any future such disaster, as 'once a dissembler, always a dissembler.' That applies to individuals and administrations alike.

Shilly-shallying of the sort you and tpn have indulged in ate infact the kind of selective and warped logic that allowed D Irvine to pedal the monstrous idea that somehow the Holocast did not happen.

Fredrik

I think it should, normally, go with out saying that we are fortunate that youselves and I may express our opinions freely, but it is then reasonable to examine these views in a logically analytical way, and dismantle them, with even I hope that in this case you will then seek to add to the debate with a logical explanation of why you think you are right and I am wrong. That is the cherished freedom is speech, which ought to be the reason for this Thread.

Regards from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik!
Someone think that democracy is a kind of "i do what i want" thing.
But a lot of us know that freedom is only a lesson to learn that somebody still don't want to.

Best things from Gianluigi.

Dear Gianluigi,

The business of elections is certainly the responsibility of the electorate to get right the result! I quite agree. And the expression of views within the tenets of freedom of speech is also a responsibilty. Where the law regulates these rights, it is because some people have been unable to consider their responsibilities adequately, such as in the issue of Racial abuse, for example.

Every privelelge, or right, breeds its own set of responsibilities, I would think. Those who talks nonesense or don't vote or vote stupidly (for extremist parties etc) are being irresponsible, but hopefully they don't constitute a majority.

Go well in life, Dear Gianluigi, and all the best from Fredrik

THE END THE END THE END THE END

Tarquin why rubbish Gianluigi post in the manner you did. Do you disagree with all of it or some. The guy is Italian trying to communicate in English. As a matter of fact a lot of it is true,if not then the following are blatant liars.

1. Alexander WURTH Russia At War.

2. Primo LEVI If This is A Man.

The latter is possibly the greatest story of survival of a concentration camp ever written.

have a nice day everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by tpm45:.

2. Primo LEVI If This is A Man.

The latter is possibly the greatest story of survival of a concentration camp ever written.

For once I agree with you. Everyone ought to read this book at some point - perhaps it should be a set book in all schools.

Here a good and simple site link to read.
http://www.brynmawr.edu/italian/npatruno/courses/holoc/

Grasi cioa, a great site and man. Tell me this he died a number of years ago. They say he fell down some stairs?????or was he pushed??whats the story in Italy concerning his death.

START A NEW POST Gianluigi

quote:

Originally posted by tpm45:
Grasi cioa, a great site and man. Tell me this he died a number of years ago. They say he fell down some stairs?????or was he pushed??whats the story in Italy concerning his death.

Hi Tmp!
Primo Levi commited suicide in 1987.
The worst thing that the lager experience engraved in Jews survivor's life was the eternal shame of excaping alive while others died.
This torment Levi's life till his death.
This drawing made by him describe, at my eyes, the terrible state of mind.

We could say, in few poor words, that what germans did in that period went further the end of the war and afflicted many till the day of their death.
See Tmp.
What's more hard in a beating or in a humiliation?
Is it the moment you live and support it or the years you'll spend thinking about it?
The question has two answers that belongs to two different kind of persons.
Personally i think that pain stays in the memory and not in the scars.
Scars dry out but the overloading of pain, terror and loss of our own dignity as human beeings destroy the will to live.
Many times the word "future" coincide the word "trust".
The temptation of revenge brings you on a very sharp edge where is very difficult to stand, to see a future and remember a past as a man inteded not only like an animal.

Tarquin.
My opaque language comes from the fact that i do not belong to the native English speaking community.
I do apologize for the errors that can, i know, mislead the meaning of my thoughts.
I see more willing in understanding in other people from other countries and this brings a little discredit to you, you who should have in understanding and hospitality a point further in honour.
As italian i can't deny the fame of double faced many of us have.
I personally did turn it into a wiser attempt to keep myself on a higher position over the parts.
This let me decide and say what my poor brain suggests me to say.
I did wrote what i think, but still i'm waiting for your point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by tpm45:
Gianluigi isa thata a tru is youa connin us inglisis wita de olda tongue.

I beg your pardon?

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-
As I read your post, I understand this to be your point of view and I have asked that you explain why you think like this.

So Mike (is it your name?).
I start considering the fact that, as i wrote before, in time of crisis governements tend to put the blame on someone else.
The encreasing level of stupidity, that empregnate the so called west, make things easier.
Here in Italy the whole campaign is aimed to demonstrate the fact that our life style is somehow compromised by other countries' life style.
The fact that our economic system is collapsing must be kept hidden away from the masses that must keep on dreaming on a kind of "economic miracle" ,as our prime minister call it, and keep on putting their money on the market.
They keep on saing that we're in Iraq to bring democracy and freedom.
So why we did not attack Saudi Arabia?
Or China?
Or Pakistan?
Or the hebrew extremists in Israel?
Or Cuba?
The fact is that people are living at the edge of their possibilities in terms of supporting a kind of living that ask you not to live, but to do the best that you can to survive.
Don't mind about all the new cars you see around.
They are got by money loan.
Just mind about stress and nastiness.
People need to put blame on someone.
Second, but not less important, is oil.
Iraqi reserves are estimated to last for about 120 years.
What a bautifull chance: a dictator to fight and a lot of money to take away.
This kind of operation need to involve a lot of other aspects that nothing have to do with a normal commercial exchange.
The building of a tyrant image (as Saddam really was) and the romantic view of the soldier gifting chocolate bars and water to the afflicted citizens.
All to distract people's brain from the fact that the main aim was control in the area.
Germans was used to say that Russians was used to eat children.
And people believed it!
They say that Jews were barbarians with a very small brain.
They were used to describe them on the posters drawing them with rat faces like.
What's goin' on today, Mike?
I think that nobody did care about Saddam massacres till the moment iraqi reserves became important.
Mr Schvarzkopf, the hero of the first iraqi war, was present when Saddam did gas the Kurdish people.
Why they did not reach Bagdad the first time and arrested him?
Above all why a lot of good young iraqi, american, english, iatalian (and sadly so on) boys must die?
Because women are forced to wear burka?
Because afghan men beat their wifes?
In India, the new friend of Mr. bush, men get married and spend all their wifes' dowry.
Then they kill their wife and get married again.
A good reason to invade India, isn't it?
See Mike.
The same lies they used against Jews they are using against other.
It's the same old game and my frustration is that people believe them.

It's up to you now.

Yes Mike.
But Kuwait was an iraqi peace of land before english governement decided to create it as a new state.
I can't remember the date...............
British dominion in the area started in about 1899 and ended in june 1961.
Became a regime in 1962.
Probably in Saddam head there were some kind of revenge idea.
But still i think that invasion of Kuwait has something to do with control in the area.
Probably encreasing the economic power in the area Saddam did think to gain more points in the international balance of power.

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:
You appear to have changed the emphasis of your argument.

No, Mike.
I know i can be abstruse, but i'm tryin' to point the attention on the fact that methods did not change.

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-

You also have ignored eg. the fact that Iraq invaded Kuwait, has used WMD ( at Hallabja ), was believed to be trying to build a nuclear warhead...

When Mr rumsfeld where heartly shaking Saddam hand what do you think he did for.
Love?
Or businnes.
When USA sells weapons to India and at the same time goes to Pakistan and say that everything is ok, what for?

MONEY and an active interest in maintaining and upgrading the existing stock.

No Mike.
There could not be another mass deportation.
Anyway a billion people would be hard to take away............................
They needed a reason to start a war, Mike.
Like in Vietnam (Tonkino attack never happened).
Like at Pearl Harbour (they knew japanese were attacking).
Like in South America were they support dictators.
Doing so needs a large political consent.
Who would say "no" when the largest part of the population is assured that an invasion must be done?
They took anyone on TV to demostrate that someone was attempting to our "life style".
I rember an interview with George Michael!
George Michael speaking on TV obout the muslim danger.
This is out of anything i call "information".
I have nothing against George Michael, but they could bring Mikey Mouse as well!!!!!

Mike.
The word "underdeveloped" or "pure" or "worthy of living" does have a sense?
In my country they say that muslims are not "developed".
Some one says that they live like animals.
When people from Africa come, work and die in a builing site they left their bodies along the road.
It happened!
Maybe because they are not "worthy of living"?
Like Jews, disableds, insanes, homosexuals etc etc etc etc
Do you understand now?
The pope, Mr ratzinger, blessed on public ceremony a book and a pact for "preservation of the western civilization"!
Does it make ring any bell?

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:
Gianluigi

I see little point in continuing this. You are continually movong away from the point, raising ever so slightly new issues and refusing to answer my main question.

Good night.

M

Good night?
I'm awake like a finch!

Ok.
No matter.