Art that Shook the World
Posted by: Paul Ranson on 13 July 2002
This evening on BBC2 (UK only...). Michael Portillo doing Wagner's Ring in 40 minutes.
This is why I have a TV. OK 'Scrapheap Challenge' and 'Robot Wars' are momentarily entertaining, 'Buffy' is momentarily amusing,
But if I wasn't already into the Ring I'd be on Amazon this evening buying it. This is serious stuff that sounds gorgeous, makes you tap your feet and takes a lifetime to comprehend. Good value. Couple the moral ambiguity and complicated history and you have a winner.
And Portillo was exactly the right chap to present. I think we should all exercise our democratic rights and ensure he can get tickets for the Bayreuth festival again...
Next week is Brian Wilson. Fun fun fun...
Paul
This is why I have a TV. OK 'Scrapheap Challenge' and 'Robot Wars' are momentarily entertaining, 'Buffy' is momentarily amusing,
But if I wasn't already into the Ring I'd be on Amazon this evening buying it. This is serious stuff that sounds gorgeous, makes you tap your feet and takes a lifetime to comprehend. Good value. Couple the moral ambiguity and complicated history and you have a winner.
And Portillo was exactly the right chap to present. I think we should all exercise our democratic rights and ensure he can get tickets for the Bayreuth festival again...
Next week is Brian Wilson. Fun fun fun...
Paul
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by JeremyD
Paul: I recommend Jeremy seeks out an Anna Russell CD with her guide to the Ring, that should put it into perspective.
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul, but I really don't have any interest.
I can appreciate that when you find something that really reaches you it's natural to want others to share that experience. But sometimes, for whatever reason, people are not receptive or lack the appropriate sensitivities. I'm afraid that in my case this is one of those times.
If I may go a little off-topic here, I've lost count of the number of visitors whom I've made to listen to Kraftwerk with the same motive. The fact that the typical response has been something like, "The melodies were nice but I found it too repetitive" (which is a polite way of saying, "How can you listen to this stuff?") has not deterred me...
It all seemed worth it one time when I persuaded a visitor to listen to Neon Lights a second time. She didn't get it at all the first time, but I was convinced that she would. Then I described its synaesthetic imagery, explained how the piece affects me and persuaded her to listen to it again. This time she had tears in her eyes - it was a complete transformation.
JD
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul, but I really don't have any interest.
I can appreciate that when you find something that really reaches you it's natural to want others to share that experience. But sometimes, for whatever reason, people are not receptive or lack the appropriate sensitivities. I'm afraid that in my case this is one of those times.
If I may go a little off-topic here, I've lost count of the number of visitors whom I've made to listen to Kraftwerk with the same motive. The fact that the typical response has been something like, "The melodies were nice but I found it too repetitive" (which is a polite way of saying, "How can you listen to this stuff?") has not deterred me...
It all seemed worth it one time when I persuaded a visitor to listen to Neon Lights a second time. She didn't get it at all the first time, but I was convinced that she would. Then I described its synaesthetic imagery, explained how the piece affects me and persuaded her to listen to it again. This time she had tears in her eyes - it was a complete transformation.
JD
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
I switched on this programme some way through, to find some 'critic' or other making some point about Wagner's music being anti-semitic - not explicitly, but at a 'subconcious' level - at that point I switched off. If Wagner was attempting to write some racist propaganda opera, then the fact that the audiences haven't really grasped this for so long suggests he was a failure.
Whilst Wagner views were extreme even for his day, I find it hard to follow any of this through into his works and specifically the experience you actually get in the theatre. The arguments usually put forward for some sort of racist subtext (e.g. Alberich, Mime, Beckmesser or Klingsor as Jews) just don't follow through in any coherent manner.
As for DJH's comments about isolation of the individual - I'd be interested in your argument for that conclusion? And as to the financial circumstances of the generation of these works -is this really relevant?
David
Whilst Wagner views were extreme even for his day, I find it hard to follow any of this through into his works and specifically the experience you actually get in the theatre. The arguments usually put forward for some sort of racist subtext (e.g. Alberich, Mime, Beckmesser or Klingsor as Jews) just don't follow through in any coherent manner.
As for DJH's comments about isolation of the individual - I'd be interested in your argument for that conclusion? And as to the financial circumstances of the generation of these works -is this really relevant?
David
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul, but I really don't have any interest.
How depressing, she's really very funny. The DIY Gilbert and Sullivan is also worth a listen.
quote:
Then I described its synaesthetic imagery, explained how the piece affects me and persuaded her to listen to it again.
Wagner is way easier than this. Yet you find the music ugly. I think your brain must be wired very very oddly. Or you have a hifi that doesn't play tunes...
Paul
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by JeremyD
Paul: Wagner is way easier than this. Yet you find the music ugly. I think your brain must be wired very very oddly. Or you have a hifi that doesn't play tunes...
Don't worry, it's not the hi-fi, it's my brain. I really do listen to the sound of washing machines and fridges as music.
JD
Don't worry, it's not the hi-fi, it's my brain. I really do listen to the sound of washing machines and fridges as music.
JD
Posted on: 16 July 2002 by DJH
quote:
As for DJH's comments about isolation of the individual - I'd be interested in your argument for that conclusion? And as to the financial circumstances of the generation of these works -is this really relevant?
David - I suppose what I was thinking of was, first, Tristan and Isolde, where two lovers can only be together in death (despite what the music might suggest), and second, Parsifal, where Parsifal can only recover the grail by renouncing sexual temptation. In other words, your choices carry a price, which in Wagner is often sanctity at the cost of isolation. Do you agree, or do you see it differently?
I don't normally see the author's life as particularly relevant to a work of art, but the comparison between Wagner and Joyce is quite interesting, and you can make as much or as little of it as you want.
Posted on: 17 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
DJH,
I'd certainly agree that Wagner often portrays individuals who are at odds with the rest of society around them for one reason or another. In the examples you've given I generally agree with you, although in both cases it is a lot more complex - Wagner rarely portrays things in black and white. However, if you then add Die Meistersinger and the Ring, you have a more rounded view.
David
I'd certainly agree that Wagner often portrays individuals who are at odds with the rest of society around them for one reason or another. In the examples you've given I generally agree with you, although in both cases it is a lot more complex - Wagner rarely portrays things in black and white. However, if you then add Die Meistersinger and the Ring, you have a more rounded view.
David
Posted on: 17 July 2002 by DJH
quote:
although in both cases it is a lot more complex - Wagner rarely portrays things in black and white.
I'm not so sure - I think that there are fewer shades of grey in Wagner than with other composers or writers. Perhaps you could expand on your comments on the Ring and Die Meistersinger (which I'm not familiar with)?
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
DJH,
I'm not sure I want to expand too much before this thread turns into Pseuds Corner.
I'm surprised about your comments about the fewer shades of grey - Wagner is very open to interpretation - one of the reasons you get such wildly different productions, and why so much literature is still produced on Wagner and his works.
Going back to the Ring, in the struggle of love and power, whilst the power of the Gods is seen to not be a valid force for good for society, love hardly fares any better. In his last three works, Wagner explores various other aspects of love and their effect on the outside world. In Tristan, Wagner was turning up the intensity a few notches, and this is seen to be entirely destructive. Meistersinger, appears to reach a harmonious, if very carefully balanced conclusion, but the two characters in love are pretty ordinary, and it does take a lot of manipulation by the central character Hans Sachs to achieve this state. In Parsifal, the nature of Parsifal's love is seen to be regenerative for society, if as you say, it is at a cost.
Of course the above is a ridiculous simplification - but at least I hope it shows that there is a reasonable diversity.
And I can't finish without making a point about Furtwangler, from Tony's earlier post - to me this is the best performance of the Ring available, but hardly the place to start, considering the recording quality. My first recommendation would be to go and see it - no matter how bad the performance, it will probably give you more insight than a recording will. If you do want to get a feel for how good Furtwangler is, I'd recommend his EMI recording with the Vienna Phil of Die Walkure - it is in mono, but the sound quality is very natural. A comparison of the last 10-15 minutes of this opera against almost any competition, and in particular the ludicrously over-rated Solti recording should convince that Furtwangler really knew how to conduct Wagner.
David
I'm not sure I want to expand too much before this thread turns into Pseuds Corner.
I'm surprised about your comments about the fewer shades of grey - Wagner is very open to interpretation - one of the reasons you get such wildly different productions, and why so much literature is still produced on Wagner and his works.
Going back to the Ring, in the struggle of love and power, whilst the power of the Gods is seen to not be a valid force for good for society, love hardly fares any better. In his last three works, Wagner explores various other aspects of love and their effect on the outside world. In Tristan, Wagner was turning up the intensity a few notches, and this is seen to be entirely destructive. Meistersinger, appears to reach a harmonious, if very carefully balanced conclusion, but the two characters in love are pretty ordinary, and it does take a lot of manipulation by the central character Hans Sachs to achieve this state. In Parsifal, the nature of Parsifal's love is seen to be regenerative for society, if as you say, it is at a cost.
Of course the above is a ridiculous simplification - but at least I hope it shows that there is a reasonable diversity.
And I can't finish without making a point about Furtwangler, from Tony's earlier post - to me this is the best performance of the Ring available, but hardly the place to start, considering the recording quality. My first recommendation would be to go and see it - no matter how bad the performance, it will probably give you more insight than a recording will. If you do want to get a feel for how good Furtwangler is, I'd recommend his EMI recording with the Vienna Phil of Die Walkure - it is in mono, but the sound quality is very natural. A comparison of the last 10-15 minutes of this opera against almost any competition, and in particular the ludicrously over-rated Solti recording should convince that Furtwangler really knew how to conduct Wagner.
David
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by herm
the Music, indeed
Interesting post, David.
I've always considered the dark, negative sides of Wagner's work (the drama and the music) the most fascinating. My first exposure to Wagner (there was no Wagner in my folks' home: ours was a Mozart place, basically) was at twenty, a great Parsifal, and I was utterly spellbound.
Look at it this way: there's this place in the woods, and pretty much everyone is dying or wants to die, feeling guilty. For the first fifteen minutes there's this redhead woman lying face down on the floor among dying leaves, motionless. Forget about starting in media res: this was starting at the end of a world. (I know, the kid is going to give the world another shot, but for most of the time you're not looking at regeneration. You're looking at a bunch of folks who want out.)
And all the time there are these terrific waves of rich powerful music coming in. It's a vision I've never forgotten (just like - to make a comparison that's as natural to me as strange to you perhaps - the first great Sleeping Beauty I saw / heard: these are the two great fin-de-siecle works about decay and regeneration).
Interestingly enough my girlfriend is very keen on Wagner, too. More than I in fact. She can spend a couple of hours in the music room (my study, for chrissake!) with this music. Perhaps it's her Spanish love for unforgiving larger than life drama.
Herman
Interesting post, David.
I've always considered the dark, negative sides of Wagner's work (the drama and the music) the most fascinating. My first exposure to Wagner (there was no Wagner in my folks' home: ours was a Mozart place, basically) was at twenty, a great Parsifal, and I was utterly spellbound.
Look at it this way: there's this place in the woods, and pretty much everyone is dying or wants to die, feeling guilty. For the first fifteen minutes there's this redhead woman lying face down on the floor among dying leaves, motionless. Forget about starting in media res: this was starting at the end of a world. (I know, the kid is going to give the world another shot, but for most of the time you're not looking at regeneration. You're looking at a bunch of folks who want out.)
And all the time there are these terrific waves of rich powerful music coming in. It's a vision I've never forgotten (just like - to make a comparison that's as natural to me as strange to you perhaps - the first great Sleeping Beauty I saw / heard: these are the two great fin-de-siecle works about decay and regeneration).
Interestingly enough my girlfriend is very keen on Wagner, too. More than I in fact. She can spend a couple of hours in the music room (my study, for chrissake!) with this music. Perhaps it's her Spanish love for unforgiving larger than life drama.
Herman
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by DJH
Wagner's music is certainly multi-layered and open to different interpretation, but the frames of reference are often less ambiguous than elsewhere. What I'm getting at is similar to Johnson's comments on Milton - "a genius that could carve a Colossus from a rock, but could not carve heads upon cherrystones." Similarly, I can find more shades of grey in a Schubert song than in large passages of Wagner. Sorry if you find this discussion "pseudy" - I thought this was a forum to discuss music!
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
DJH,
Re: Pseuds Corner - I was talking more about my comments than yours - the problem with Wagner is you end up talking about all the other stuff rather than the music.
I'm not going to disagree with your assessment of Wagner. I think he's a lot more subtle at least in musical terms than you suggest.
Regarding libretto he is often clumsy, although I rarely find him as offensive as some other obviously do. However you are getting me on a weak point as Schubert is a favourite as well. Different things for different moods - I'm just glad we have both.
David
Re: Pseuds Corner - I was talking more about my comments than yours - the problem with Wagner is you end up talking about all the other stuff rather than the music.
I'm not going to disagree with your assessment of Wagner. I think he's a lot more subtle at least in musical terms than you suggest.
Regarding libretto he is often clumsy, although I rarely find him as offensive as some other obviously do. However you are getting me on a weak point as Schubert is a favourite as well. Different things for different moods - I'm just glad we have both.
David
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
Herm
That's a wonderful description, of the situation.
For those who are receptive, there is something very special about the music of Parsifal. I think it was Debussy who said it was scored as if it was music lit from behind. Absolutely magical. Coming back to what I was saying about shades of grey, the prelude to Act1 just about sums up to me all the defense you require about Wagner. The music is of the upmost beauty and subtlety, wonderfully crafted- yet balanced with this pain and longing. The fact that the rest of the opera lives up to this Prelude confirms Wagner's status as one of the very great composers.
I said I would avoid Pseuds Corner, but I can't resist a quote by Rilke that Michael Tanner uses in his book 'Wagner' - my reading recommendation on the subject.
"Whoever does not, sometime or other, give his full consent, his full and joyous consent, to the dreadfulness of life, can never take possession of the unutterable abundance and power of our existence; can only walk on its edge, and one day, when the judgement is given, will have been neither alive nor dead. To show the identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the same divine head, indeed, this single face, which just presents itself this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in which we perceive it".
Tanner then followed this quote with something along the lines of - If you think this is mumbo-jumbo, then you will almost certainly think that about Parsifal. If you find it profound, it could well give you an insight into all of Wagner's works.
David
That's a wonderful description, of the situation.
For those who are receptive, there is something very special about the music of Parsifal. I think it was Debussy who said it was scored as if it was music lit from behind. Absolutely magical. Coming back to what I was saying about shades of grey, the prelude to Act1 just about sums up to me all the defense you require about Wagner. The music is of the upmost beauty and subtlety, wonderfully crafted- yet balanced with this pain and longing. The fact that the rest of the opera lives up to this Prelude confirms Wagner's status as one of the very great composers.
I said I would avoid Pseuds Corner, but I can't resist a quote by Rilke that Michael Tanner uses in his book 'Wagner' - my reading recommendation on the subject.
"Whoever does not, sometime or other, give his full consent, his full and joyous consent, to the dreadfulness of life, can never take possession of the unutterable abundance and power of our existence; can only walk on its edge, and one day, when the judgement is given, will have been neither alive nor dead. To show the identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the same divine head, indeed, this single face, which just presents itself this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in which we perceive it".
Tanner then followed this quote with something along the lines of - If you think this is mumbo-jumbo, then you will almost certainly think that about Parsifal. If you find it profound, it could well give you an insight into all of Wagner's works.
David