Art that Shook the World
Posted by: Paul Ranson on 13 July 2002
This evening on BBC2 (UK only...). Michael Portillo doing Wagner's Ring in 40 minutes.
This is why I have a TV. OK 'Scrapheap Challenge' and 'Robot Wars' are momentarily entertaining, 'Buffy' is momentarily amusing,
But if I wasn't already into the Ring I'd be on Amazon this evening buying it. This is serious stuff that sounds gorgeous, makes you tap your feet and takes a lifetime to comprehend. Good value. Couple the moral ambiguity and complicated history and you have a winner.
And Portillo was exactly the right chap to present. I think we should all exercise our democratic rights and ensure he can get tickets for the Bayreuth festival again...
Next week is Brian Wilson. Fun fun fun...
Paul
This is why I have a TV. OK 'Scrapheap Challenge' and 'Robot Wars' are momentarily entertaining, 'Buffy' is momentarily amusing,
But if I wasn't already into the Ring I'd be on Amazon this evening buying it. This is serious stuff that sounds gorgeous, makes you tap your feet and takes a lifetime to comprehend. Good value. Couple the moral ambiguity and complicated history and you have a winner.
And Portillo was exactly the right chap to present. I think we should all exercise our democratic rights and ensure he can get tickets for the Bayreuth festival again...
Next week is Brian Wilson. Fun fun fun...
Paul
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by JeremyD
Herman: What you're running up against this way, Jeremy, is the fact that art is not necessarily meant to be pretty all the time, or supportive of one's own nice views.
What you're running up against this way, Herman, is the fact that I never suggested otherwise. Frankly, I'm baffled that you could have construed such an infantile viewpoint in what I've said.
Herman: Way I see it, one of Wagner's allures is this mix of evil, danger and beauty - after all that is what it's about.
I would not wish to persuade you othewise. But that doesn't mean that Wagner has or should have any allure for me. People are different - accept it.
Herman: And there's very few great artists who do not embody to some extent what they are about, even if this means bad things. Otherwise you're not that interested, and it's hard to get that visceral appeal. You don't go into the arts (as if!) to say, in all kinds of intricate ways: "I'm a nice guy / gal. Let's go pick flowers."
Indeed.
Herman: This is one of those things that confuses the Shostakovich debate, too. People want to pin him down to one position (an anti-commie ironicist, preferably), but the man is not available for pinning down.
My answer to this is that, in general, it is the art itself rather than the artist that makes its impression on me. In fact, when this is not the case then it is probably symptomatic of my dislike of the artist in question [i.e. their work].
As for Shostakovich, I have just the sort of 1-dimensional view of him that you complain about, simply because I know very little about him.
My point is, however, that were I to learn more about Shostakovich it is most unlikely that it would change my experience of his music to any significant degree. This is not to say that knowledge about the composer, the composer's culture and circumstances etc. cannot influence my perceptions - simply that I do not choose to seek out such influences, and that rarely if ever have such influences resulted in a gestalt shift in my experience of an artist's work.
When I listen to music I prefer the naive approach of direct experience, focusing on the moment of now. To me the rest is just history.
JD
What you're running up against this way, Herman, is the fact that I never suggested otherwise. Frankly, I'm baffled that you could have construed such an infantile viewpoint in what I've said.
Herman: Way I see it, one of Wagner's allures is this mix of evil, danger and beauty - after all that is what it's about.
I would not wish to persuade you othewise. But that doesn't mean that Wagner has or should have any allure for me. People are different - accept it.
Herman: And there's very few great artists who do not embody to some extent what they are about, even if this means bad things. Otherwise you're not that interested, and it's hard to get that visceral appeal. You don't go into the arts (as if!) to say, in all kinds of intricate ways: "I'm a nice guy / gal. Let's go pick flowers."
Indeed.
Herman: This is one of those things that confuses the Shostakovich debate, too. People want to pin him down to one position (an anti-commie ironicist, preferably), but the man is not available for pinning down.
My answer to this is that, in general, it is the art itself rather than the artist that makes its impression on me. In fact, when this is not the case then it is probably symptomatic of my dislike of the artist in question [i.e. their work].
As for Shostakovich, I have just the sort of 1-dimensional view of him that you complain about, simply because I know very little about him.
My point is, however, that were I to learn more about Shostakovich it is most unlikely that it would change my experience of his music to any significant degree. This is not to say that knowledge about the composer, the composer's culture and circumstances etc. cannot influence my perceptions - simply that I do not choose to seek out such influences, and that rarely if ever have such influences resulted in a gestalt shift in my experience of an artist's work.
When I listen to music I prefer the naive approach of direct experience, focusing on the moment of now. To me the rest is just history.
JD
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by Paul Ranson
If there's racism in The Ring then it's well hidden and has to be sought. What the Ring has is dwarves, giants, jaded gods, a fecund torso, loads of incestuous passion and betrayal with gorgeous tunes.
It's strange how we search for subliminal racism and don't really mind the sex and violence. A sign of our times?
IMO it's a work of genius that will provide entertainment and stimulation for a lifetime.
I recommend Jeremy seeks out an Anna Russell CD with her guide to the Ring, that should put it into perspective.
Paul
It's strange how we search for subliminal racism and don't really mind the sex and violence. A sign of our times?
IMO it's a work of genius that will provide entertainment and stimulation for a lifetime.
I recommend Jeremy seeks out an Anna Russell CD with her guide to the Ring, that should put it into perspective.
Paul
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by DJH
I am in two minds about Wagner’s anti-semitism. On the one hand, I do see it as a product of his time, an attitude that was in general currency and which would have been shared by many others who are not the subject of demonisation. On the other, I am deeply disturbed by the overt links to German mythology and Aryanism. Consequently, when I listen to Wagner, which I do often, I am torn between being seduced by the music and singing, and being repelled by the words – I don’t think that this is at all unusual.
Joyce was a man who understood Wagner profoundly – Tristan and Isolde are mentioned in the opening chords of Finnegans Wake– and it is no coincidence that Joyce chose a wandering jew, Leopold Bloom, as the “hero” of Ulysses. It is interesting to note that Joyce, who chose a life of exile and poverty, eventually completed a masterpiece that embraced all of humanity, whereas Wagner, who chose patronage and decadance, perfected an artform that emphasises principally the isolation of the individual. This passage from Nestor shows the kind of anti-semitism that would have been common and current in late nineteenth and early twentieth century Europe;
He raised his forefinger and beat the air oldly before his voice spoke.
-- Mark my words, Mr Dedalus, he said. England is in the hands of the jews. In all the highest places: her finance, her press. And they are the signs of a nation's decay. Wherever they gather they eat up the nation's vital strength. I have seen it Coming these years. As sure as we are standing here the jew merchants are already at their work of destruction. Old England is dying.
He stepped swiftly off, his eyes coming to blue life as they passed a broad sunbeam. He faced about and back again.
-- Dying, he said, if not dead by now.
The harlot's cry from street to street
Shall weave old England's winding sheet.
His eyes open wide in vision stared sternly across the sunbeam in which he halted.
-- A merchant, Stephen said, is one who buys cheap and sells dear, jew or gentile, is he not?
-- They sinned against the light, Mr Deasy said gravely. And you can see the darkness in their eyes. And that is why they are wanderers on the earth to this day.
On the steps of the Paris Stock Exchange the goldskinned men quoting prices on their gemmed fingers. Gabbles of geese. They swarmed loud, uncouth about the temple, their heads thickplotting under maladroit silk hats. Not theirs: these clothes, this speech, these gestures. Their full slow eyes belied the words, the gestures eager and unoffending, but knew the rancours massed about them and knew their zeal was vain. Vain patience to heap and hoard. Time surely would scatter all. A hoard heaped by the roadside: plundered and passing on. Their eyes knew the years of wandering and, patient, knew the dishonours of their flesh.
-- Who has not? Stephen said.
-- What do you mean? Mr Deasy asked.
He came forward a pace and stood by the table. His underjaw fell sideways open uncertainly. Is this old wisdom? He waits to hear from me.
-- History, Stephen said, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.
From the playfield the boys raised a shout. A whirring whistle: goal. What if that nightmare gave you a back kick?
-- The ways of the Creator are not our ways, Mr Deasy said. All history moves towards one great goal, the manifestation of God.
Stephen jerked his thumb towards the window, saying:
-- That is God.
Hooray! Ay! Whrrwhee!
-- What? Mr Deasy asked.
-- A shout in the street, Stephen answered, shrugging his shoulders.
Joyce was a man who understood Wagner profoundly – Tristan and Isolde are mentioned in the opening chords of Finnegans Wake– and it is no coincidence that Joyce chose a wandering jew, Leopold Bloom, as the “hero” of Ulysses. It is interesting to note that Joyce, who chose a life of exile and poverty, eventually completed a masterpiece that embraced all of humanity, whereas Wagner, who chose patronage and decadance, perfected an artform that emphasises principally the isolation of the individual. This passage from Nestor shows the kind of anti-semitism that would have been common and current in late nineteenth and early twentieth century Europe;
He raised his forefinger and beat the air oldly before his voice spoke.
-- Mark my words, Mr Dedalus, he said. England is in the hands of the jews. In all the highest places: her finance, her press. And they are the signs of a nation's decay. Wherever they gather they eat up the nation's vital strength. I have seen it Coming these years. As sure as we are standing here the jew merchants are already at their work of destruction. Old England is dying.
He stepped swiftly off, his eyes coming to blue life as they passed a broad sunbeam. He faced about and back again.
-- Dying, he said, if not dead by now.
The harlot's cry from street to street
Shall weave old England's winding sheet.
His eyes open wide in vision stared sternly across the sunbeam in which he halted.
-- A merchant, Stephen said, is one who buys cheap and sells dear, jew or gentile, is he not?
-- They sinned against the light, Mr Deasy said gravely. And you can see the darkness in their eyes. And that is why they are wanderers on the earth to this day.
On the steps of the Paris Stock Exchange the goldskinned men quoting prices on their gemmed fingers. Gabbles of geese. They swarmed loud, uncouth about the temple, their heads thickplotting under maladroit silk hats. Not theirs: these clothes, this speech, these gestures. Their full slow eyes belied the words, the gestures eager and unoffending, but knew the rancours massed about them and knew their zeal was vain. Vain patience to heap and hoard. Time surely would scatter all. A hoard heaped by the roadside: plundered and passing on. Their eyes knew the years of wandering and, patient, knew the dishonours of their flesh.
-- Who has not? Stephen said.
-- What do you mean? Mr Deasy asked.
He came forward a pace and stood by the table. His underjaw fell sideways open uncertainly. Is this old wisdom? He waits to hear from me.
-- History, Stephen said, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.
From the playfield the boys raised a shout. A whirring whistle: goal. What if that nightmare gave you a back kick?
-- The ways of the Creator are not our ways, Mr Deasy said. All history moves towards one great goal, the manifestation of God.
Stephen jerked his thumb towards the window, saying:
-- That is God.
Hooray! Ay! Whrrwhee!
-- What? Mr Deasy asked.
-- A shout in the street, Stephen answered, shrugging his shoulders.
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by Former member
quote:
Originally posted by DJH:
(...)Old England is dying. (...)
man looks up on a yellow sky
and the rain turns to rust in his eye
rumours of his health are lies
old england is dying
his clothes are a dirty shade of blue
and his ancient shoes worn through
he steals from me and he lies to you
old england is dying
still he sings an empire song
still he keeps his navy strong
and he sticks his flag where it ill belongs
old england is dying
you're asking what makes me sigh now
what it is makes me shudder so well
I just FREEZE in the wind and I'm
numb from the pummelin' of the snow
that falls from the high in the yellow skies
down on where the well loved flag of
england flies
where homes are warm and mothers sigh
where criminals are televised politicians
fraternize
journalist are dignified and everyone is
civilized
and children stare with Heroin eyes
Old England!
evening had fallen
the swans are singing
the last of Sunday's bells is ringing
the wind in the trees is sighing
and old england is Dying
...in fact, I'll think I'll put that album on now. Wagner is for masocists (in more ways than one
)Posted on: 15 July 2002 by JeremyD
Paul: I recommend Jeremy seeks out an Anna Russell CD with her guide to the Ring, that should put it into perspective.
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul, but I really don't have any interest.
I can appreciate that when you find something that really reaches you it's natural to want others to share that experience. But sometimes, for whatever reason, people are not receptive or lack the appropriate sensitivities. I'm afraid that in my case this is one of those times.
If I may go a little off-topic here, I've lost count of the number of visitors whom I've made to listen to Kraftwerk with the same motive. The fact that the typical response has been something like, "The melodies were nice but I found it too repetitive" (which is a polite way of saying, "How can you listen to this stuff?") has not deterred me...
It all seemed worth it one time when I persuaded a visitor to listen to Neon Lights a second time. She didn't get it at all the first time, but I was convinced that she would. Then I described its synaesthetic imagery, explained how the piece affects me and persuaded her to listen to it again. This time she had tears in her eyes - it was a complete transformation.
JD
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul, but I really don't have any interest.
I can appreciate that when you find something that really reaches you it's natural to want others to share that experience. But sometimes, for whatever reason, people are not receptive or lack the appropriate sensitivities. I'm afraid that in my case this is one of those times.
If I may go a little off-topic here, I've lost count of the number of visitors whom I've made to listen to Kraftwerk with the same motive. The fact that the typical response has been something like, "The melodies were nice but I found it too repetitive" (which is a polite way of saying, "How can you listen to this stuff?") has not deterred me...
It all seemed worth it one time when I persuaded a visitor to listen to Neon Lights a second time. She didn't get it at all the first time, but I was convinced that she would. Then I described its synaesthetic imagery, explained how the piece affects me and persuaded her to listen to it again. This time she had tears in her eyes - it was a complete transformation.
JD
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
I switched on this programme some way through, to find some 'critic' or other making some point about Wagner's music being anti-semitic - not explicitly, but at a 'subconcious' level - at that point I switched off. If Wagner was attempting to write some racist propaganda opera, then the fact that the audiences haven't really grasped this for so long suggests he was a failure.
Whilst Wagner views were extreme even for his day, I find it hard to follow any of this through into his works and specifically the experience you actually get in the theatre. The arguments usually put forward for some sort of racist subtext (e.g. Alberich, Mime, Beckmesser or Klingsor as Jews) just don't follow through in any coherent manner.
As for DJH's comments about isolation of the individual - I'd be interested in your argument for that conclusion? And as to the financial circumstances of the generation of these works -is this really relevant?
David
Whilst Wagner views were extreme even for his day, I find it hard to follow any of this through into his works and specifically the experience you actually get in the theatre. The arguments usually put forward for some sort of racist subtext (e.g. Alberich, Mime, Beckmesser or Klingsor as Jews) just don't follow through in any coherent manner.
As for DJH's comments about isolation of the individual - I'd be interested in your argument for that conclusion? And as to the financial circumstances of the generation of these works -is this really relevant?
David
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul, but I really don't have any interest.
How depressing, she's really very funny. The DIY Gilbert and Sullivan is also worth a listen.
quote:
Then I described its synaesthetic imagery, explained how the piece affects me and persuaded her to listen to it again.
Wagner is way easier than this. Yet you find the music ugly. I think your brain must be wired very very oddly. Or you have a hifi that doesn't play tunes...
Paul
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by JeremyD
Paul: Wagner is way easier than this. Yet you find the music ugly. I think your brain must be wired very very oddly. Or you have a hifi that doesn't play tunes...
Don't worry, it's not the hi-fi, it's my brain. I really do listen to the sound of washing machines and fridges as music.
JD
Don't worry, it's not the hi-fi, it's my brain. I really do listen to the sound of washing machines and fridges as music.
JD
Posted on: 15 July 2002 by Former member
Not all of Wagner's contemporaries held his views concerning Jews. Nietzsche found Wagner's anti-semitism appalling. He takes Wagner to task for his anti-semitism in Nietzsche Contra Wagner, and eventually breaks his friendship with Wagner because of anti-semitism.
Wagner wrote great music, but I have to wonder what heights he might have achieved if his mind was not enveloped in anti-semitism. Psychologists like Gordon W. Allport, in his Nature of Prejudice takes the position that prejudice serves as a psychological crutch for the holder of such beliefs. The need is so great to have the other to hate, that if that group did not exist, it would have to be invented. See also Theodore Adorno, The Authoritarian Personality.
Nietzsche was of the mind that anti-semitism limited Wagner as a person and as an artist.
Jack
Wagner wrote great music, but I have to wonder what heights he might have achieved if his mind was not enveloped in anti-semitism. Psychologists like Gordon W. Allport, in his Nature of Prejudice takes the position that prejudice serves as a psychological crutch for the holder of such beliefs. The need is so great to have the other to hate, that if that group did not exist, it would have to be invented. See also Theodore Adorno, The Authoritarian Personality.
Nietzsche was of the mind that anti-semitism limited Wagner as a person and as an artist.
Jack
Posted on: 16 July 2002 by DJH
quote:
As for DJH's comments about isolation of the individual - I'd be interested in your argument for that conclusion? And as to the financial circumstances of the generation of these works -is this really relevant?
David - I suppose what I was thinking of was, first, Tristan and Isolde, where two lovers can only be together in death (despite what the music might suggest), and second, Parsifal, where Parsifal can only recover the grail by renouncing sexual temptation. In other words, your choices carry a price, which in Wagner is often sanctity at the cost of isolation. Do you agree, or do you see it differently?
I don't normally see the author's life as particularly relevant to a work of art, but the comparison between Wagner and Joyce is quite interesting, and you can make as much or as little of it as you want.
Posted on: 17 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
DJH,
I'd certainly agree that Wagner often portrays individuals who are at odds with the rest of society around them for one reason or another. In the examples you've given I generally agree with you, although in both cases it is a lot more complex - Wagner rarely portrays things in black and white. However, if you then add Die Meistersinger and the Ring, you have a more rounded view.
David
I'd certainly agree that Wagner often portrays individuals who are at odds with the rest of society around them for one reason or another. In the examples you've given I generally agree with you, although in both cases it is a lot more complex - Wagner rarely portrays things in black and white. However, if you then add Die Meistersinger and the Ring, you have a more rounded view.
David
Posted on: 17 July 2002 by DJH
quote:
although in both cases it is a lot more complex - Wagner rarely portrays things in black and white.
I'm not so sure - I think that there are fewer shades of grey in Wagner than with other composers or writers. Perhaps you could expand on your comments on the Ring and Die Meistersinger (which I'm not familiar with)?
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
DJH,
I'm not sure I want to expand too much before this thread turns into Pseuds Corner.
I'm surprised about your comments about the fewer shades of grey - Wagner is very open to interpretation - one of the reasons you get such wildly different productions, and why so much literature is still produced on Wagner and his works.
Going back to the Ring, in the struggle of love and power, whilst the power of the Gods is seen to not be a valid force for good for society, love hardly fares any better. In his last three works, Wagner explores various other aspects of love and their effect on the outside world. In Tristan, Wagner was turning up the intensity a few notches, and this is seen to be entirely destructive. Meistersinger, appears to reach a harmonious, if very carefully balanced conclusion, but the two characters in love are pretty ordinary, and it does take a lot of manipulation by the central character Hans Sachs to achieve this state. In Parsifal, the nature of Parsifal's love is seen to be regenerative for society, if as you say, it is at a cost.
Of course the above is a ridiculous simplification - but at least I hope it shows that there is a reasonable diversity.
And I can't finish without making a point about Furtwangler, from Tony's earlier post - to me this is the best performance of the Ring available, but hardly the place to start, considering the recording quality. My first recommendation would be to go and see it - no matter how bad the performance, it will probably give you more insight than a recording will. If you do want to get a feel for how good Furtwangler is, I'd recommend his EMI recording with the Vienna Phil of Die Walkure - it is in mono, but the sound quality is very natural. A comparison of the last 10-15 minutes of this opera against almost any competition, and in particular the ludicrously over-rated Solti recording should convince that Furtwangler really knew how to conduct Wagner.
David
I'm not sure I want to expand too much before this thread turns into Pseuds Corner.
I'm surprised about your comments about the fewer shades of grey - Wagner is very open to interpretation - one of the reasons you get such wildly different productions, and why so much literature is still produced on Wagner and his works.
Going back to the Ring, in the struggle of love and power, whilst the power of the Gods is seen to not be a valid force for good for society, love hardly fares any better. In his last three works, Wagner explores various other aspects of love and their effect on the outside world. In Tristan, Wagner was turning up the intensity a few notches, and this is seen to be entirely destructive. Meistersinger, appears to reach a harmonious, if very carefully balanced conclusion, but the two characters in love are pretty ordinary, and it does take a lot of manipulation by the central character Hans Sachs to achieve this state. In Parsifal, the nature of Parsifal's love is seen to be regenerative for society, if as you say, it is at a cost.
Of course the above is a ridiculous simplification - but at least I hope it shows that there is a reasonable diversity.
And I can't finish without making a point about Furtwangler, from Tony's earlier post - to me this is the best performance of the Ring available, but hardly the place to start, considering the recording quality. My first recommendation would be to go and see it - no matter how bad the performance, it will probably give you more insight than a recording will. If you do want to get a feel for how good Furtwangler is, I'd recommend his EMI recording with the Vienna Phil of Die Walkure - it is in mono, but the sound quality is very natural. A comparison of the last 10-15 minutes of this opera against almost any competition, and in particular the ludicrously over-rated Solti recording should convince that Furtwangler really knew how to conduct Wagner.
David
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by herm
the Music, indeed
Interesting post, David.
I've always considered the dark, negative sides of Wagner's work (the drama and the music) the most fascinating. My first exposure to Wagner (there was no Wagner in my folks' home: ours was a Mozart place, basically) was at twenty, a great Parsifal, and I was utterly spellbound.
Look at it this way: there's this place in the woods, and pretty much everyone is dying or wants to die, feeling guilty. For the first fifteen minutes there's this redhead woman lying face down on the floor among dying leaves, motionless. Forget about starting in media res: this was starting at the end of a world. (I know, the kid is going to give the world another shot, but for most of the time you're not looking at regeneration. You're looking at a bunch of folks who want out.)
And all the time there are these terrific waves of rich powerful music coming in. It's a vision I've never forgotten (just like - to make a comparison that's as natural to me as strange to you perhaps - the first great Sleeping Beauty I saw / heard: these are the two great fin-de-siecle works about decay and regeneration).
Interestingly enough my girlfriend is very keen on Wagner, too. More than I in fact. She can spend a couple of hours in the music room (my study, for chrissake!) with this music. Perhaps it's her Spanish love for unforgiving larger than life drama.
Herman
Interesting post, David.
I've always considered the dark, negative sides of Wagner's work (the drama and the music) the most fascinating. My first exposure to Wagner (there was no Wagner in my folks' home: ours was a Mozart place, basically) was at twenty, a great Parsifal, and I was utterly spellbound.
Look at it this way: there's this place in the woods, and pretty much everyone is dying or wants to die, feeling guilty. For the first fifteen minutes there's this redhead woman lying face down on the floor among dying leaves, motionless. Forget about starting in media res: this was starting at the end of a world. (I know, the kid is going to give the world another shot, but for most of the time you're not looking at regeneration. You're looking at a bunch of folks who want out.)
And all the time there are these terrific waves of rich powerful music coming in. It's a vision I've never forgotten (just like - to make a comparison that's as natural to me as strange to you perhaps - the first great Sleeping Beauty I saw / heard: these are the two great fin-de-siecle works about decay and regeneration).
Interestingly enough my girlfriend is very keen on Wagner, too. More than I in fact. She can spend a couple of hours in the music room (my study, for chrissake!) with this music. Perhaps it's her Spanish love for unforgiving larger than life drama.
Herman
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by DJH
Wagner's music is certainly multi-layered and open to different interpretation, but the frames of reference are often less ambiguous than elsewhere. What I'm getting at is similar to Johnson's comments on Milton - "a genius that could carve a Colossus from a rock, but could not carve heads upon cherrystones." Similarly, I can find more shades of grey in a Schubert song than in large passages of Wagner. Sorry if you find this discussion "pseudy" - I thought this was a forum to discuss music!
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
DJH,
Re: Pseuds Corner - I was talking more about my comments than yours - the problem with Wagner is you end up talking about all the other stuff rather than the music.
I'm not going to disagree with your assessment of Wagner. I think he's a lot more subtle at least in musical terms than you suggest.
Regarding libretto he is often clumsy, although I rarely find him as offensive as some other obviously do. However you are getting me on a weak point as Schubert is a favourite as well. Different things for different moods - I'm just glad we have both.
David
Re: Pseuds Corner - I was talking more about my comments than yours - the problem with Wagner is you end up talking about all the other stuff rather than the music.
I'm not going to disagree with your assessment of Wagner. I think he's a lot more subtle at least in musical terms than you suggest.
Regarding libretto he is often clumsy, although I rarely find him as offensive as some other obviously do. However you are getting me on a weak point as Schubert is a favourite as well. Different things for different moods - I'm just glad we have both.
David
Posted on: 18 July 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
Herm
That's a wonderful description, of the situation.
For those who are receptive, there is something very special about the music of Parsifal. I think it was Debussy who said it was scored as if it was music lit from behind. Absolutely magical. Coming back to what I was saying about shades of grey, the prelude to Act1 just about sums up to me all the defense you require about Wagner. The music is of the upmost beauty and subtlety, wonderfully crafted- yet balanced with this pain and longing. The fact that the rest of the opera lives up to this Prelude confirms Wagner's status as one of the very great composers.
I said I would avoid Pseuds Corner, but I can't resist a quote by Rilke that Michael Tanner uses in his book 'Wagner' - my reading recommendation on the subject.
"Whoever does not, sometime or other, give his full consent, his full and joyous consent, to the dreadfulness of life, can never take possession of the unutterable abundance and power of our existence; can only walk on its edge, and one day, when the judgement is given, will have been neither alive nor dead. To show the identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the same divine head, indeed, this single face, which just presents itself this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in which we perceive it".
Tanner then followed this quote with something along the lines of - If you think this is mumbo-jumbo, then you will almost certainly think that about Parsifal. If you find it profound, it could well give you an insight into all of Wagner's works.
David
That's a wonderful description, of the situation.
For those who are receptive, there is something very special about the music of Parsifal. I think it was Debussy who said it was scored as if it was music lit from behind. Absolutely magical. Coming back to what I was saying about shades of grey, the prelude to Act1 just about sums up to me all the defense you require about Wagner. The music is of the upmost beauty and subtlety, wonderfully crafted- yet balanced with this pain and longing. The fact that the rest of the opera lives up to this Prelude confirms Wagner's status as one of the very great composers.
I said I would avoid Pseuds Corner, but I can't resist a quote by Rilke that Michael Tanner uses in his book 'Wagner' - my reading recommendation on the subject.
"Whoever does not, sometime or other, give his full consent, his full and joyous consent, to the dreadfulness of life, can never take possession of the unutterable abundance and power of our existence; can only walk on its edge, and one day, when the judgement is given, will have been neither alive nor dead. To show the identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the same divine head, indeed, this single face, which just presents itself this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in which we perceive it".
Tanner then followed this quote with something along the lines of - If you think this is mumbo-jumbo, then you will almost certainly think that about Parsifal. If you find it profound, it could well give you an insight into all of Wagner's works.
David