Big Brother in Reality ?

I have an awful feeling that the American requirement will be used as the ideal excuse for the UK Government to force ID cards into final reality again.

The good old BBC did a "fill in" piece during a recent 6 o'clock news on the format and machines designed to produce UK ID cards which would indeed have a fingerprint aswell as a photograph. Of course there would be all sorts of info disguised as "helpfull" encoded into the smart chip, such as criminal activities along side health info.

I am not sure how long British Citizens abroad can escape this but over here the ID card is pretty innocuous by the standards outlined above and to some extent refelects the fact that you are not obligated to give personal information beyond the bare name and address in most cases.

I will also be interested to see how the Americans cope with the logistics of implementing this for the large number of visitors they get. You could imagine miles long qeues either at airports and embassies. The new slogans for the airlines will be "turn up today , fly tomorrow"

GEOFFP

Given that our passport has a unique ID number, our photograph and signature - surely all they could do would be scan the ID tag and take a fingerprint..............

And imagine the damages case if the ink was to stain your suit - it's good old US of A !!!

Imagine the damages case if the ink caused a skin disease

How about giving us all ID plates to wear (like number plates) and installing a GATSO at passport control

quote:

---

Next year (ALL) visitors to the US will be required to be photographed and fingerprinted before entry, I wonder if anybody has any comments on the subject ?

---

I have intended to go to the US for the last 25 years. Now it seems I can put this idea out of my head and use the time wasted on "planning" this event for something else and more useful.

If the Americans like to become a police state (Sweden, where I live, already is one), it's their problem. I don't have to go there.

JohanR

My Grandad always maintained that the altlantic ocean was never really wide enough, I never quite got that one ? I think we shall see though how Democratic and free Britain actually is, when it's cousin and master visits next week, "WATCH THIS SPACE".

Fritz Von They'reallcommiebastardsatheart

Graham Ricketts

Yep!!
It is well known that if the UK hoisted the anchor it would drift across until it bumped up against New York.
It all started with Ronnie saving Maggie from ignimony in the Faulklands (at least that's what they would have you believe). And then of course Billie boy saved us from the N.Irish for the sake of all of the expat Bostonians.
The trouble with George is his history and geography is so lousy that he probably thinks he is cementing relations with Asia.

GEOFFP

Suprisingly enough the Bush clan originates from a small village in Essex ?
Fritz Likes Essexgells

Graham Ricketts

So the thief-in-chief, old daddy's boy and his big money business cronies have added insult to injury.

This on top of the most appalling "Patriot 2" legislation really makes a complete mockery of "the land of the free". Rename it the "land run by the rich, for the rich" and everyone else can take a hike.

A famous quote (can't remember who) once said that whenever a scoundrel (which includes most politicians - remember Maggie?) appeals to your patriotism, run for the hills. How true.

The hypocrisy of the present catastrophe of an adminstration, and the fear of what the hell they are going to try next makes me want to puke.

Thank god for Canada.

Colin Lorenson

Strangely enough durin the cold war, West Berlin was probably the most heavily policed City on earth, ID's and all that, but I've never felt more relaxed and safer in my life, funny that innit ? Do they still have Guy Fawkes bashes down in K-Lumpy ? I remember quite a session last time I was there.


Fritz Rockin For A Free World.

Graham Ricketts

quote:

---

Strangely enough durin the cold war, West Berlin was probably the most heavily policed City on earth, ID's and all that, but I've never felt more relaxed and safer in my life, funny that innit ?

---

I was in Berlin about five years ago. ex West B was very nice, with a very 'relaxed and safe' atmosphere. This was not the case with ex E B, when waiting inside the railway station there was: A group of Neo Nazis, some prostitutes and a collection of drunks. Don't know about the amount of policemen in the respective places, but I got the impression they wasn't much needed in the west part.

Read somewhere that Monaco is the most police heavy place on earth. Never been there, but I guess it's a quite safe place. It's also been said that there is non of the dog turds so popular everywhere in the country surrounding them

Yes, with a policeman dedicated to his work in every street corner, life should be safe.

I don't consider Sweden a police state because there is pariculary many policemen, but because we have a system of compulsory Social Security Number.

JohanR

What's the SP on George Gallows-awaa ( Rebel Ex Labour MP in UK) getting apprehended, arrested or worse, before next week's visit from Cousin Geroge W'ya ?
Fritz The Gambler.

Ps: To compare (Coldwartime) Berlin with Monacco is unfortunately like comparing poor folk in Seattle with poor folk in New Orlean's innit.Cheers anyway fellow European.

Piss² Check out "The Punch" link on my website for some Great Swedish Rockers innit.

Graham Ricketts

The only people who don't want ID cards are those with something to hide.
If you are legit, and are happy for the benefit that this type of security brings, then what's the problem?

quote:

---

Compulsory ID cards are an encroachment on civil liberty. End of story

---

.

Alan,
i don't agree.
In my experience the people who don't want to carry these are either full of civil liberties or those who have something to hide.
If you have nothing to hide, and behave legally conforming to the laws of the land, then what have you to lose by carrying such identification, and everything to gain.
In the US if you don't have your driving license and registration on you at the time you get stopped by the police, you get arrested.
Imagine what effect that would have in this country - insurance premiums would go down because it would be easier to detect.
Imagine the police stopping someone at 3.30am in the morning acting sus and then not being able to ascertain who they are...
How frustrating that must be. Whereas if they got stopped and they had no ID then tough. I have nothing to hide getting stopped at that time because I've done nothing wrong...

quote:

---

posted Thu 13 November 03 15:36
The only people who don't want ID cards are those with something to hide.

---

The people who don't want [insert measure that will erode their civil liberties] have something to hide. This is the logic of the authoritarian.

We all have something to hide, even those of us with clear consciences.

Moreover, as governments become more authoritarian they become less accountable because anyone who may bring them to task can be victimised more easily. If heavily empowered law enforcement agencies don't find any dirt on a given target they can just fabricate it.

I don't like the idea of being randomly stopped by police officers as I go about my daily law-abiding business. It wouldn't be so bad for me - a white, middle class person, but if you're North African, Asian or Black in, say, Paris, you can expect to be stopped by the police as many as seven times a day.

"I'm sorry officer, this is the seventh time to day and I'm running late so kindly fuck off!"

I can see how that would end up.

The most authoritarian state I've ever visited is Uzbekistan. There they have road blocks every few miles with police officers asking for ID at every one. Their citizens also have to apply for exit visas months in advance in order to be allowed to leave the country. Corruption and bribery of enforcement officers is rife.

I believe in minimal government - below which we'd have anarchy and crime on the streets and everyone would live in fear of criminals; above which, in varying degrees we live in fear of the same by state-sponsored criminals.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on FRIDAY 14 November 2003 at 05:10.]

Ref ID cards - " The only people who don't want ID cards are those with something to hide".

This is bullshit - Similar arguement to that elucidated by "the leader of the free world" - insert appropriate comment - Bush, after 9/11.

"If you aren't with us you are against us"

This Big Brother logic of both these statements is really scary (and of course completely wrong).

You may have nothing to hide ref ID cards - but complacently agreeing to having your whole life monitored, data logged, your e-mails monitored, your spending patterns reviewed etc. is short sighted and asking for trouble.

Repressive powers in the US and UK are using 911 to accord themselves powers that go way beyond what is necessary. This is a naked power grab - nothing more and nothing less - as far as the US is concerned elections are coming up next year. It is in the present administrations interest to promote the seige mentality as no sitting President has ever lost an election in time of "war". Can you think if any other reason why he would be re-elected for gods sake.

Colin Lorenson

Steven Toy wrote:

quote:

---

I believe in minimal government - below which we'd have anarchy and crime on the streets and everyone would live in fear of criminals; above which, in varying degrees we live in fear of the same by state-sponsored criminals.

---

Agree a 100 percent to this.

A little clearafication. It's the social Security Number that is compulsory in Sweden, so far one doesn't have to carry an ID.

Having people tagged and controlled is excellent when, as an example, once own beloved country is occupied by a foreign regime and they want to track down the people that are most against being occupied. Excellent for that foreign regime, that is. I have understood that this is what happened in a couple of countries being occupied by the Nazis during the WWII. And, of course, in that case not only patriotic citizens...

JohanR

It's a dammned disgrace that as of monday next it will be an offence finable to
the tune of 50 Sovs to feed the beloved pidgeons in London's famous Trafalgar
Square. I feel it yet another Civil Liberty being taken away from the Public,
not to mention the fact that these Hero Pidgeons (their earlier cousins at
least)saved many lives during both World Wars carrying vital Military
intelligence across the lines, as well as being jolly good in a pie to keep us
going, and being their ultimate sacrifice to their Country and fellow Britain's.
Only those carry ID cards on the legs will be allowed to land, and any who seem
a little dodgey will be blasted out of the sky with buckshot, or mowed down by
Hawk interceptors. A Grannie, Mother, and Auntie used to say "Make sure you're
always wearing a clean pair of underpants, in case you get run over and have to
go to hospital" Nowadays, it's more likely to be " Make sure your ID Card is
clean and readable, and stop scraping the frost off of Daddies car windscreen
with it!" innit.
Citizen Fritz.

Piss: "Watch This Space" George Galloway MP: Man of Free Speech and Liberty
will soon get an undeserved upcummence unfortunately, irrespective of
one's views of the Guy, he's doing it for you & me, don't forget that.

Graham Ricketts

N.B.
As the smart money will be feeding aforementioned birds anyway on the sidelines of aforementioned square, maybe they could see their way to training a few to fly over George's motors and show their respect for him, as only they know how, "Go on my Son, Right on his Bonce " Free-Speech of the highest odrer I feel, innit.
Fritz Von Ft.Lt. Pidgeon.

Graham Ricketts

Mmm fair points put above - granted.
I'll abstain from the rest of this as I'm biased...obviously,
but I would say to all drivers out there that drive legally - if you had to produce your licence and insurance at the time someone with a legal right to see it e.g. another party after a crash, or a police officer after an offence or as part of a requirement, and if you did not you'd get nicked, the ripple effect of that would be huge!
In the end it would affect the legal drivers insurance premium beneficially.

Oh Oh ive said it now...

Andy c,

That's what a "producer" is for. Not only do you not get nicked for not having them available at the scene, but they don't get nicked from the glove box while your car is parked up, if left at home in a drawer.

If required you turn up at your local nick within seven days with said documents. Seems reasonable to me.



Regards,

Steve.

Woodrow Wilson was the last US President to visit the UK on an Official State visit back in 1918, carrying his famous 14 Points. Our latest defender of Democracy and Free Speech has but 1 point, "You're either with me or against me", the latter making you a Terrorist in his eyes, President George Walker Bush, Welcome to Old Europe next week:
Have a good time Y'awl.
Fritz Von Daft as an Orkney Frying Pan

Piss: Yes I reckon producing said docs at local nick in a certain time period seems reasonable too, before so-called forearms officiers come around and shoot you in bed, innit.KIwis have got it I reckon !!!

Graham Ricketts

Steve,
Thats ok provided you are legit. If you are devious you can give false details - fail to produce and then get away with it. But you'll say thats down to the officers at the time of stop to establish...
I'm all for civil liberties, provided people don't take the P**s out of them. If everyone thought as we on this forum did we would not be having this debate as people would be fair.
Some people are not, infact they are dishonest etc so I think its about being proportinate...

Here in Germany one must carry an identity card by law, technically an on the spot fine if not, ie going black on the tube etc, but one can produce it a bit later at cop-shop or wherever, non German's carry some form of ID as basic bloody common sense anyway, even if it's not your own ?

Fritz agréeing for once, innee.

Graham Ricketts

A very touchy subject indeed that we all like to pretend isn't there, but is,
BIG-STYLE is the Worldwide use of Soldiers of Fortune, or whatever you may wish
to call them ? They are a fact of life in many "Present Wars" and come from all
Nations, especially those boasting highly modern proffessional Military forces,
and well established Democratic Governments, I make no actual comment on their
existence, nor would I openly critisise Israel or Mossad to name but a few, for
the same reason, being a realist, unlike seemingly many folk out there in
cyberspace ? The one point I do find relevant of late though, being voiced by
certain Countries that use the services of such personell, as well as being on
the recieving end of aforermentioned services, is an ever increasing wish of many people for the advisors/fighters involved as part of their contracts to temporarily take on the Nationality of the Country's involved that pay them, and subsequently therefore theoretically be bound to the very laws that would affect their own military, and thereby take on some semblence of accountabiltity for their actions ?

Naive Citizen Fritz:

Piss. I don't refer to those that get killed or captured, they take their chances and get paid accordingly, and yes we know it's a highly lucrative business that essentially affects us all, I thank you, innit.

Graham Ricketts

“There’s absolutely no sense of humour at American check-ins
nowadays, and for a while I was quite scared,” Dave Rogerson told
reporters after landing at Philadelphia airport. “I tried to explain
that it was just a toy, but they told me that it had produced the
highest reading for explosives they’d ever encountered, and took it
very very seriously. They were very jumpy, and were utterly
convinced that there must be something explosive in the dog.”
Rogerson, a page designer from Leeds, was explaining what had
happened to him at Norfolk Airport in Virginia, prior to boarding
his flight. “When the security staff began examining my luggage,
they came across my novelty toy dog. It’s an hilarious life-size
mechanical terrier that farts when it bends over, then belches while
its eyes revolve and light up, and for some reason the gas inside
registered as high-explosive TNT on their equipment. I couldn’t
believe it when the FBI arrived wearing rubber gloves and began
taking swabs from the animal’s rear end, and I was really scared
when they took me away for questioning. What made things worse was
that I’d placed my passport and boarding card under the dog before
it went on the scanner, and that had been placed in an isolation
zone under suspicion of being a bomb, so I couldn’t even give the
agents my papers when they demanded them. I got a real grilling from
the FBI over several hours, but eventually they decided that the dog
was harmless, and let me go. They even let me have the dog back.
Although it doesn’t fart anymore.” (The Register, 27/10/03. Spotter
Stephen MacDonald)

P.Eye magazine Dec.2003.

PPS "And don't forget, just because you're not Paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ?"

Fritz Von Valium²

Graham Ricketts

I would be ashamed to be an American after seeing that poor guy get beaten to shit by those
brave cops ? The person that filmed it is a hero in my eyes, God help him/her. Remember Rodney King ? hundreds died in the LA riots after that fiasco, where are we living here, Holly Fuckin Wood, or What ?

Fritz Von Michael Jackson say's "Is it cos I's
white ?"

Graham Ricketts