Is my LP12 defectively?

Posted by: jpk73 on 30 October 2001

Hi!

The rotating plate of my LP12 moves from side to side almost 1mm; I looked at the inner plate: it doesen't semm to sway, but between the inner and the outer plate there is a scope so I can slide the outer plate back and forth a little bit. I tried to find a position to minimize that side-to-side-moving, it's better now but still easily visible...

I don't know if this is important nor if a brandnew LP12's plate is supposed to move from side to side or not.

Thanks for any hints!
Jun

[This message was edited by Jun Keller on WEDNESDAY 31 October 2001 at 00:27.]

Posted on: 30 October 2001 by Arthur Bye
Try this link. If this doesn't help page Rico he has some other LP12 links that may help you. Here's a quote from it:

The business of the centre spindle being off-true is perhaps the oddest fault of all. Basically I cannot see how it can happen, but happen it does. To see if your sondek turntable runs true, carefully balance and level
the platter, then look at how the platter sits in relation to the stainless steel top plate. Because the top plate bows at the right-hand side (near the arm board) you can't easily use it as a reference, but you can trust
the heads of the five black bolts. Basically it should be possible to adjust the suspension so that the armboard sits flush with the top of the plinth and the platter rides at approximately the same height from each
black bolt head.

LP12 setup

Arthur By

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Tony L
quote:
The rotating plate of my LP12 moves from side to side almost 1mm; I looked at the inner plate: it doesen't semm to sway, but between the inner and the outer plate there is a scope so I can slide the outer plate back and forth a little bit.

What is the history of your deck? It sounds like your platter and inner platter are from different LP12s! There should not be any noticeable play between these two components. The fact that there is would mean the deck would no longer be balanced, with the platter heavier on one side than the other, this would impact the suspension and will probably explain the fact that you see the platter moving from side to side. Can you see the arm board move as the platter rotates?

Whilst I am usually all in favour of DIY LP12 setup (you can find manuals on my site - www.pfmedia.demon.co.uk/flatearth )I feel in this case you should take your Linn to a trustworthy dealer. You need to establish exactly what you have, and also if there is any damage. Whatever you have is repairable, such is the nature of the beast. If you find that your bearing is trashed, and you don't want to pay out 350 quid or so on a Cirkus (new higher tolerance bearing and inner platter), many good dealers have old bearings / inner platters lying around from people who have Cirkus'd their deck that they will part with for very little money.

Tony.

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by jpk73
My LP12 is brandnew, I got it a couple of weeks ago. I will have to bring it back to the dealer.

When he installed the LP12, it was not perfectly horizontal, the antiscating and VAT were out of tune, and the solder joints of both cinch-connectors were broken.

So I don't know, but there is no other dealer here in Vienna...

Regards, Jun

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Tony L
quote:
When he installed the LP12, it was not perfectly horizontal, the antiscating and VAT were out of tune, and the solder joints of both cinch-connectors were broken.

Sounds like your dealer is an idiot. It is however his duty to set the deck up to your satisfaction. If he does not have the knowledge or skill to do this you are entitled to your money back. If you have any doubts I would suggest you contact Linn directly, I am sure they will take a dim view of the standard of service you have recieved. A new LP12 is a very expensive item, and one with a high dealer mark-up, it is your right to have it competently installed. Accept no less.

Tony.

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by jpk73
I just spoke to the dealer, he says that he also can move the outer platter for about half a millimeter. He says this is normal.

So I am a little bit confused...

Regards, Jun

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
The inner / outer platter should fit perfectly. Any movement here puts the platter out of true which is wrong, pure and simple.

Talk to Linn direct, they're usually very helpful. Your dealer is a twit and obviously hasn't the slightest understanding of the precision required to extract music from a record groove, which is very worrying.

The platter should be perfectly level, with no visible or detectable movement (except for the rotation!) once up to speed.

It's normal for the platter to be a little off-level post transport or if the outer platter has been off a while, but it should settle within a few minutes, an hour at the most.

Andy.

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by jpk73
Please have a look at the enclosed picture, I am not sure if I explained correctly...

Jun

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by jpk73
OK, I will write an email to Linn.

I was at 2 shops today where they sell LP12s, and in both shops the LP12s were exactely like mine. But 2 of my friends LP12s are without any gap or scope between the inner and the outer plate...

Thank you very much for your advice,
Jun

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Greg Beatty
On every LP12 I have seen, including mine, the precision is so good that with a clean felt mat I cannot tell if the turntable is running or not. It looks the same either way - no play, no wobble, nothing.

It should be THAT precise.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Andrew L. Weekes
So much for Linn upholding Scotlands strong heritage then wink

Let us know what's going on, it sounds frighteningly inexcusable.

I could turn up a platter with greater precision!

Andy.

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Craig B
Isn't QC is the first thing to go when the end is near? roll eyes

Craig

Posted on: 31 October 2001 by Andreas Nystroem
:I
Posted on: 06 November 2001 by jpk73
quote:
Many thanks for your email to the Linn Helpline.

I understand your concern regarding the engineering of your LP12
turntable platter and our quality assurance engineer will investigate
the issues raised. Certainly, the tolerances in machining of the inner
and outer LP12 platters are much closer than the 0.5 mm in your
observations, being equal or less than 0.18 mm.

As such, your Linn retailer would gladly check your turntable and return
it to the Linn factory for further tests.

In the meantime, please accept our sincerest apologies for any
inconvenience caused and you can rest assured that your LP12 will be
returned to current specification and will continue to give you many
years of musical pleasure.

Today I checked again the gap between the inner and outer platter, but I don't know how to measure it correctly. So I tried to slide slim strips of paper in the gap: I used standard A4/80gr-paper and I could push in a pile of 2 strips. A 6mm-pile of this paper contains about 55 sheets, so theoretical the result of my calculation would come to a gap of ~0.21mm between the inner and outer platter.

So I guess I have to bring my LP12 back to the dealer...

Regards, Jun

Posted on: 06 November 2001 by Steve B
I just measured mine using a piece of card and a micrometer.

Steve B

Posted on: 10 July 2003 by jpk73
I got a totally new deck with a slightly differnet colored outer platter. It has much less play but I still can move the outer platter on the inner platter back and forwards which makes a nice hammering metallic click-noise... If switched on the platter staggers just a very tiny but easily visible bit!!

Until now I thought it's fine because all LP12s seem to have play, but as Garyi states his has no play!
Posted on: 10 July 2003 by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Beatty:
On every LP12 I have seen, including mine, the precision is so good that with a clean felt mat I cannot tell if the turntable is running or not. It looks the same either way - no play, no wobble, nothing.

It should be THAT precise.

- GregB


Funnily enough I discovered that on Tuesday evening - mine had been running since Sunday night and I simply did not notice. Mind you the Lingo was pretty warm.

Rgds

Mike
Posted on: 10 July 2003 by Paul Ranson
Quoting from the 'Linn Magazine' of the late '80s,

"The finished spindle is pressed into the inner section of the platter, which fits with the outer section to make a platter 12in wide overall. Weighing nine pounds it is gravity cast from non-magnetic zinc-aluminium alloy and machined on all surfaces to within 2 thousandths of an inch.

The fit between the outer piece and the inner section could be even tighter, but Linn allows for a controlled amount of clearance to prevent the platter as a whole resonating (if you tap either the outer or inner sections when they're apart they'll ring sweetly; put them together and there's no resonance) Linn's careful machining rather than dynamic balancing ensures proper balance and optimum peripheral mass distribution."

Note that was written well pre-Cirkus.

FWIW my LP12 has a just noticeable amount of slop between inner and outer, but I cannot tell when it is running.

Paul
Posted on: 10 July 2003 by jpk73
Without feltmat I can easily see when it's running.

- Jun
Posted on: 10 July 2003 by Duncan Fullerton
Just checked my 18-year old beastie. Holding the spindle and trying to move the outer platter by pinching the raised lip I can detect no free play at all.

Also the comments above about both pieces ringing individually but not together hold true for my deck.

Hope this helps.

Duncan
Posted on: 10 July 2003 by Toksik
JUN,if you noticed all these faults you described on your dealer's install why did you not complain and return the deck for replacement?. you obviously were NOT happy at the time and then to cap it all you come on here bleating about your experience with a "dodgy" LP12.
i'd get the deck swapped for another LP12 and seek out a more competent dealer.
ANDREW, i don't think Scotland's engineering heritage will fall down on this one alleged instance of a faulty inner/outer platter tolerance.... Eek
dennis



quote:
Originally posted by Jun Keller:
My LP12 is brandnew, I got it a couple of weeks ago. I will have to bring it back to the dealer.

When he installed the LP12, it was not perfectly horizontal, the antiscating and VAT were out of tune, and the solder joints of both cinch-connectors were broken.

So I don't know, but there is no other dealer here in Vienna...

Regards, Jun
Posted on: 10 July 2003 by paul99
Jun,

You have my sympathy.

I am no fan of the Scottish company but during my LP12 troubles talking to Linn was worthwhile. It at least got me replacements for all the faulty parts on my new LP12 and got the dealer to come out and install it after all the new parts had been fitted.

BTW - Insist on new parts. Why should you wait for your LP12 to be returned, checked, repaired and so on? Ask for a new one, yours was faulty from delivery.

I am very interested in the comments made in this thread about the possibility of standards slipping at Linn.

This might be an explanation for the extremely poor build quality of the LP12/Ekos etc which I bought towards the end of last year.

I have never been able to understand how such a poorly made piece of equipment is so loved - earlier versions must have been better. Confused

Problems encountered: Chipped lid, scuffed base, two short circuits (cable and Ekos problems) cue mechanism fell off, other issues not pursued: noisy motor, unreliable speed change / static sensitivity of motor control, possible fault in Linto phono amp.

For what it's worth I did not notice any play between the outer and inner platters.

I do hope that you get this sorted out. It is so disappointing to spend a lot of money and realize that you've bought ... Frown

It would be interesting to know what is the most recently purchased LP12 which is giving good service among Forum members.

Regards,

Paul.
Posted on: 12 July 2003 by jpk73
Hi again!
  • Forum members say that they cannot see any wobble when it's running, so they can't tell if it's running or not. I can easily see if mine is running or not.
  • Some forum members have a gap between inner and outer platter, some don't. In my case there is a gap so that I can slide the outer platter back and forth (hold the axe and give soft pressure against the outer platter).
  • The whole thing has to be adjusted from time to time, and my dealer left me with a LP12 which was not perfectly horizontal, the antiscating and VAT were out of tune, and the solder joints of both connectors were broken.
  • I cannot fit my Koetsu in the Aro and they do not make headshells with slots for the mounting screws...
  • I like the very fluid and rhythmic performance of my LP12, especially with female vocal...
So what shall I do? Bring it back to the dealer and demand a new unit ones more?
  • I want a turntable which gives me that fluid and rhythmic performance.
  • I want the TT to have excellent build quality, and it should stay for ever once setupped.
  • It should take any cart: I have heard that Naim plan to upgrade the base of the Aro so it can be adjusted to any cart - in that case I would love to keep my Aro!
  • I want to use my existing Prefix / Supercap with that TT.
So: is the LP12 my turntable? Or are there better options for me...?
Posted on: 12 July 2003 by Paul Ranson
Once an LP12 is correctly set it should remain correctly set for some years. There are paranoid chaps who tweak things so they're always wrong. Don't be one of them.

If you leave the mat on you cannot see any gaps.

The outer platter should have a small tolerance to the inner, on my turntable you can move the outer slightly. This is standard.

I can only see mine going round if the outer is dirty, or the light is specifically placed. I don't see any eccentricity.

The ARO is clearly incompatible with the Koetsu. If you want an ARO then get a Linn or Lyra cart.

If your dealer is not expert, and you're not prepared to learn the runes yourself, then perhaps you need an inferior(!) turntable.

I don't know what 'the solder joints of both connectors were broken' means, but otherwise I think your turntable is probably fine.

Paul
Posted on: 12 July 2003 by jpk73
The ARO is clearly incompatible with the Koetsu

Why? - I heard (from forum members) that it it's actualy a very good match!

- Jun
Posted on: 13 July 2003 by Paul Ranson
You said,

quote:
I cannot fit my Koetsu in the Aro and they do not make headshells with slots for the mounting screws...


QED, as it were.

The ARO seems ideally suited to cartridges in a narrow range of weights and which have a particular geometry. The Linn carts (built I think nowadays by Lyra) fit, and I think the Lyra brand models also fit and are recommended by many Naim users. IIRC there's a Lyra designed to have the ideal output for a Prefix-K.

If you want to use the Koetsu then I think you need a turntable/arm that work well in that idiom. (My view of Koetsu is coloured by the ludicrous range of extreme pricing from the 80s and the UK importer who was completely unable to assemble a respectable sounding system.) I would guess that an Ekos would be a good starting point with an LP12, but probably a different turntable altogether might make a happier match. Howabout a Michell-SME combo?

Paul