Insomnia?

How many hours do you actually sleep?

Are you concerned because you think you ought to sleep for longer, or is it that you physically need more sleep?

Hi Wolf

I had the same problem, off and on, for a few years. I would wake up at 4 am with my mind racing and unable to get back to sleep for at least an hour. Exercise for 40 minutes every day and not allowing myself to go to sleep before midnnight keeps me from waking at 4 am. If slip out of this routine I will wake up at 4 again and think about why. It always comes back to excercise or going to bed too early.

Good luck with this, I know how frustrating and disturbing it can be.

Jim

My periodic insomnia is usually relieved by getting up very early whether I have awoken or not. I am then generally tired enough to go to sleep by about 22:00/ 23:00.
It sound like you are already aware that early morning wakening is a common symptom of depression, indicating an underlying cause. Whatever you do, don't rely on a nightcap to send you off, this will just excacerbate the problem long term. You are doing the right thing in getting up, reading etc.. rather than just lying there trying to sleep when you can't.

Great single

A technique I am trying to try (but keep getting knocked off track before I can give it a fair chance) is:

1) Get up at the same time each morning - perhaps 4:00 or 5:00 since that's when you are currently awakening anyway.

2) Note approximately how much time, on average, you spend asleep each night - call it n hours.

3) Set your bedtime to give you n hours in bed - UNLESS n is less than 5.5, in which case give yourself 5.5 hours in bed. Do this even if you have to force yourself to stay awake until bedtime.

4) Stick to this pattern until (if all goes well) you are sleeping for the vast majority of time that you spend in bed. At this point, increase the time you allow yourself in bed.

A problem with this technique is that at least at first you may spend most of the day feeling drowsy.

Also, it's probably useful to get a lot of daylight in the morning and exercise every day.

To fall a sleep make sure you exercise everyday. Even 30 minutes makes a big difference.

Train yourself that your bed is for sleeping. ie Don't read a book in bed for hours on end.

Tiredness at night supposedly comes in waves about 90 minutes apart. When you get a second wind wait for the next wave to come in, then hit the sack.

1 and 2 work for me.

gusi

said it better than i did.

regards
Jim

Chaps

Sleep is a total waste of time.

When I was in my 20/30s i could get by on 5 hours sleep and I found it useful to do many manner of things with all the time at my disposal.

I now need 7 hours and it is a liability.

Sleep is time wasted.

Regards

Mick

hi,

When im laying on average 700 bricks every day i need all the sleep i can get!
I look foward to sleep, a real bugger though halfway through a good album.
Good night!

regards

Best book I've ever seen on the subject of sleep.
"The Promise of Sleep" by Dr. Dement.
A rather lenghty book that covers all aspects of sleep.
Just read it.
And then maybe seek a sleep medical professional.
David

Wolf

You have my personal sympathies-I'm a very variable sleeper!

In very broad terms you are describing 'early waking' as well as 'initial insomnia'. Dealing with the former can often be more a matter of dealing with underlying issues of stress and mood rather than the 'sleep hygiene' measures that have been alluded too so far-which generally help in getting off to sleep. This is a bit of a generalisation but might be worth reflecting on.

One thought that comes to mind from your post is that from 10-11pm to 4-5am is actually sufficient sleep for many in terms of a healthy 'quantity'. The feeling of frustration and daytime fatigue because your previous habit has altered can be the problem in itself rather than actually caused by lack of sleep.

Lastly (and really it is worth seeking personal professional advice rather than just consulting this well-meaning forum) you may find as I do that a nap makes a big difference to your day. 15-20 minutes is enough to recahrge my batteries mid-afternoon and as long as it is not much longer or too late in the day does not seem to stop me going to sleep that night.

Bruce

Have you tried reading some of Berlin Fritz's threads.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........

Originally posted by Wolf:

quote:

Lately I've been getting up if I can't get back to sleep and reading or listening to quiet music in the living room just to get away from the bed and frustration of laying there with my mind rambling on and on and on.

Any one else have this problem, and what do you do about it?

Hi Wolf and All,

I am, and always have been, a terrible sleeper, and the 'mind rambling on and on and on' part is the reason for this in my case. It's like I don't want to let go of the current day, and simultaneously want to get organised for the next day.

The simple measure of having a pen and paper next to my bed and noting down my thoughts is quite helpful at all times, but I only really use it when the insomnia gets very bad.

One time I found I was unable to sleep because I had a grand total of what turned out to be 137 things on my mind, ranging from music I wanted to buy, to things I wanted to pick up in town, jobs needing doing on the house and cars, peoples birthdays to remember and buy presents for, insurances that needed renewing and so on and so forth.

At least writing things down means you can be confident you don't have to try to remember all the items, and hopefully doze off. If you still can't sleep, maybe you can get up and do something towards the quieter jobs, such as the tax return or ironing. Whatever you do, though, make sure you get up rather than lie there and get annoyed.

Or, like Mick, be pleased that you aren't wasting any time, because we all know that pleasant refreshing sleep is nowhere near as good as lying awake in frustration, followed by the damage to your concentration and grouchy mood the next day. [Am I allowed a smiley?]

Good luck!

Rich.

Thanks for all your replys, I agree with all except Mick Parry (sleep is not a waste of my time). I value sleep and the books I read say down time for the mind and body is best for health and immune system. In my 30s I was a landscaper and had no problem with 8+ hours of sleep. In grad school I was working till all hours and sleep deprived for 3 years. I could go out on a 15 minute break lay down on the cement slab and be asleep in 2 minutes in full sun, ha!

I'm just concerned about only getting 5 hours sleep a night because my mind isn't sharp, can't concentrate and feel I'm heading toward poorer health as stated in the books I mentioned. I understand about having a routine. Staying in bed being frustrated etc. isn't good so I want to be more creative with my time, but darn by noon I'm wiped out and can't nap like I used to. I'm just wondering if it's the meds which I HAVE to be on and don't want to rely on other meds to put me to sleep. I was on one called Xyprexa a Psychiatrist told me about, It was great, it gave me 8 full hours of sleep. But it's for people with major psych problems (like hearing voices or halucinations, not my problem thankfully) AND it made me gain 20# in weight ( so i stopped seeing that Dr 6 months ago). The new Dr. took me off it and I dropped from 200# to a reasonable 180# but I also don't feel rested.

He's trying to avoid using the current sleeping pills Like Sonota and Ambien because with long term use effectiveness dwindles and memory losses are possible. I don't want that either.

I go see him in a few days to review Trazadone which quite frankly last week has been useless, tho he said I can go up to 3 pills it's just not working. I don't like this waking zombie feeling and what litttle sleep I do get isn't restfull.

Well, again thanks all for your replys.

glenn

Best wishes tracking that down, Glenn. In LA you should be able to find any number of competent sleep clinics, go there and get a work-up. Might be better than Dr. hopping, many of them are not really qualified to do a complete sleep problem diagnosis and proper treatment plan.
I go to an eye doctor for my eyes etc.
I think Dr. Dement is still practicing in the LA area.
Best of luck, I have Obstructive Sleep Apnea (extreme snoring with long periods of not breathing) and a proper diagnosis and treatment (for me a CPAP) had turned my life around and probably added 20 years to my life. I don't snore, my throat is not constantly swollen and my wife sleeps better as well.
I recommend a proper diagnosis and treatment for your problem. Once its solved you may be able to outpace our Mick's salad day sleeping regime!
David

Naimdropper - for your sleep apnea do you use the machine that blows air into a mask over your nose?

Derek-
Sorry for the delay, just getting back from a wonderful weekend with my wife's brother and family. They bought a nice place on a lake in Southern Indiana. Boating, skiing, eating and sleeping!
Yes, I wear the dreaded "mask" that applies (relatively) constant pressure to keep my airway open.
They take a bit of getting used to (understatement). Such as having to work to exhale, the fit and seemingly constant adjustments to keep it from leaking, etc.
BUT the benefits of a real night's sleep are worth the hassle. To the point that I will NOT even take a short nap without it. It travels with me on business trips and even outdoor camping (inverter and a battery, of course).
There are surgeries out there that will help with this, but they are at best effective 50% of the time. CPAP is 95% effective as long as the patient is compliant.
I took the appliance route rather than having my throat cut on by some surgeon.
David

Naimdropper - thanks for your answer - I was curious to see if things were handled any differently on the left side of the pond.

Well, my trip south to my parents was pretty bad. I hadn't slept well before going down. I was ok, but no sleep that night I was tired at 5 AM when I finally got up to start my day. I felt awful that Friday all day. But at least my parents got to see me in a really miserable day to reinforce that 'I'm not well' syndrome. Friday evening I was fine at a Luau with drinks and dinner with my parents at the retirement "village", nice time talking with their friends at the table. That night I took my sleep meds at 10 and had the most bizarre dreams. Starting with a strange light show in my head with eyes closed, like I was awake, but then watching this fantasy world unfold on a journey that I didn't understand, in TECHNICOLOR. It was as bad as a bad acid trip, nothing made any sense and I kept revisiting the same scene over and over at the end. Awoke at 5:30 NOT RESTED! Felt like crap. Drove an hour home in a daze and spent 2 hours in bed till noon, at least I'm home and comfortable again. Their guest room is just not comfortable, or conducive for sleep, but this was the most unusual experience I've ever had. I don't know what created this experience. Meds, lack of sleep or combination thereof.

I see my psych Dr at Kaiser, Monday and we're gonna change my meds. I'm not putting up with this anymore.

full moon?

P.s I hope you get this sorted, sleep deprivation can be a very serious illness and i hope your doctor will perscribe something that will work.

I've read somewhere that certain breathing exercises and meditation can work wonders as is physical exercise.

regards

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:


sleep deprivation can be a very serious illness

This is news to me. In my experience the main problem is a patient's anxiety about the imagined harm that not sleeping might cause, and misinformed comments like this don't help.
Provided with a decent sleeping environment, the body will eventually let you sleep. Sleep apnoea can cause day-time tiredness, but treatment involves dealing with the cause of the obstruction, not the sleep problem.

(Deliberate sleep deprivation of say a prisoner is, of course, completely different.)

Last monday night - 3 hours sleep
Last tuesay night - 3 hours sleep

Last wednesday night - 2.5 hours sitting in a plane on the tarmac at Gatwick only to have the flight cancelled - went back home to bed and up 3 hours later to catch the morning flight - No sleep at all. Not 1 second.

Last Thursday night in Nice, France 3/4 hours sleep.
Last Friday Friday night - No sleep at all. Not 1 second. Having driven 14 hours in a bloody van from Nice to Calais, 1 hour 40 mins on the very nice ferry, and then 2 more hours from Dover to Hove.

Last Saturday night - 7 hours of uninterupted blissful nectar-like sleep. A rare gift.

Last night - back to normal - 4/5 hours of interupted sleep.

I have been like this all my life. Meditation helps enormously. The first week of a retreat and I will be exhausted every night and sleep like the dead but after a couple of weeks I hardly need any sleep at all. One hour of the very deepest sleep and perhaps one hour of lucid controlled dreaming and my mind was fresh, light and happy all day long. Sadly I have not done a retreat in ages and it is high time I did.

Damn good sex helps too

I finally had 2 nights of decent sleep. I have found that after so many nights of problem sleeping I finally conk out. Still i remember my years of heavy sleep and now I just feel dulled by little sleep. I do know when I have important work or travels I get little sleep and don't seem to mind. I also find it difficult to sleep in new environs which is why it's sometimes difficult to visit my parents.

Rockingdoc,

quote:

Originally posted by Rockingdoc:

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:


sleep deprivation can be a very serious illness

This is news to me. In my experience the main problem is a patient's anxiety about the imagined harm that not sleeping might cause, and misinformed comments like this don't help.

You have a habit of saying this sort of thing when medical topics come up, and I don't think it is helpful. If you think someone is mistaken then I suggest it would be more constructive if, after asking why they think what they think, you explained why they were mistaken.

quote:

The feeling of frustration and daytime fatigue because your previous habit has altered can be the problem in itself rather than actually caused by lack of sleep.

JeremyD,

Rockingdoc is right.

I think I made the same point in my previous post (excerpt above), even it it was slightly less direct. We need a fairly small amount of sleep to be healthy over long periods. We miss additional time of 'quality' sleep in more subtle ways. Most sleep studies of people who complain of poor sleep show that they underestimate the time they have slept considerably.

Anxiety affects sleep, worrying about sleep therefore tends to make it worse. Almost all people who present to me (and I suspect Rockingdoc) have more of a problem with their anxiety over perceived lost sleep or sleep quality than an illness actually caused by insufficient sleeping time. I'd not describe 'typical' insomnia (rather than artificially forced sleep deprivation) as a 'serious illness' either.

I hope that is a perceived as a more helpful contribution. At least Rockingdocs version had the benefit of being succint!

Bruce