Insomnia?

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
I think I made the same point in my previous post (excerpt above), even it it was slightly less direct. We need a fairly small amount of sleep to be healthy over long periods. We miss additional time of 'quality' sleep in more subtle ways. Most sleep studies of people who complain of poor sleep show that they underestimate the time they have slept considerably.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by subtle... Dr. Dinges noted that “what was discovered was that many of the published reports on chronic sleep restriction of the last 100 years missed finding the cumulative neurobehavioral deficits we observed when sleep was restricted to daily dosages below eight hours, because these earlier studies failed to adequately control how much sleep was actually obtained by subjects, their caffeine intake, and a host of other confounding variables…. This perpetuated a 30-year-old myth that you don’t need eight hours of sleep each day.” Ironically, the research being performed by Dr. Dinges resulted from the efforts that he and his collaborators were making on behalf of various federal agencies “to find ways to reduce sleep need.”

quote:

Anxiety affects sleep, worrying about sleep therefore tends to make it worse. Almost all people who present to me (and I suspect Rockingdoc) have more of a problem with their anxiety over perceived lost sleep or sleep quality than an illness actually caused by insufficient sleeping time.

I don't doubt that this is true in the majority of cases where people seek help for insomnia. However, as you say, it is not true in every case. For example, since reading about the importance of anxiety. I no longer have any anxiety about my insomnia, but this has helped my sleep only in a way: I now regularly fall asleep very quickly, which used to be unheard of. But that has not helped a great deal because, like most depressed people and unlike most non-depressed people, I start dreaming almost immediately and wake up early, often with too much mental turmoil to get back to sleep again.

quote:

I hope that is a perceived as a more helpful contribution.

Yes, thanks. Unfortunately, I have had some bad experiences with arrogant and/or ignorant health professionals who were happy to rubbish ideas with which they were not acquainted and promote as fact what sometimes turned out to be, to put it bluntly, little more than medical superstition. I don't know Rockingdoc and I am not saying it reflect his thinking but this is the attitude I perceive when doctors make dismissive generalisations.

JeremeyD

I don't think we are in dispute really. Incidentally I was talking about primary insomnia rather than insomnia due to to another disorder (such as depression, sleep apnoea etc etc). Hence my suggestion in my first post that Wolf should seek professional advice for a diagnosis.

Chaps

For goodness sake, just take a good slug of whisky and you will sleep like a log.

Regards

Mick .. life is as complicated or easy as you make it.

Whiskey might well work when one has insomnia on the odd occasion but it is no solution to chronic insomnia as the sufferer will have to take ever increasing 'doses' to achieve the same result.

Erik

If you are knackered, you will sleep.

Possibly the reason why so many people do not sleep is that they spend all day sitting dowm at a desk and in the car.

Get up earlier and go for a run or take the dog out for a walk etc. Coming home from the office and spending an evening in front of the TV is no good at all.

Regards

Mick

Mick,

Trouble with early mornings runs is that one tends to fall asleep mid morning, especialy after a whopping great breakfast. This used to happen to me in the early days of my Army career quite often. Most of the others too. We would all be zzzzing during morning lectures (even the interesting ones)and giving lectures was a torture as the eyes would just not stay open even whilst standing up yakking.

The bizarre thing with me is I could go 72 hours and more with no sleep out on exercise in the field and finally get some kip only to be woken by an ant farting 100 metres away while some of my colleagues would sleep through a battle that would wake the dead. Many a time I had to kick someone awake. I mean really brutally kick them hard and not just once when all the while the very ground was shaking and the noise all around was deafening. In many ways I used to envy those who could just drop off for a few zzzzs at will.

Many times I would lay awake delirious with sleep deprivation only to drop off to sleep an hour before I was due to wake for yet another impossibly long, impossibly mentally and physically exhausting day. Out on exercise I've seen people fall asleep standing up or fall asleep digging a trench or shell scrape and fall into it as if falling into their own grave. I've seen people getting tetchy, then down right bad tempered and uncooperative and then psychotic after going 1,2 and 3 nights with no sleep. The mind starts to dream up the most crazy ways to get some sleep. Some people can begin to hallucinate after 72 hours without sleep 'sir, sir, did you see the space ship'?

After 5 nights like this things can get seriously weird. This is where the men get separated from the boys. Ive seen people seriously crack up and some get into pills to keep them awake and pills to make them sleep and it is the fast track to ruin. Ditto drink. I did a two week exercise in Canada once and I have no memory of ever having slept a wink during the entire event although I must have at some point. In Belize the bloody jungle came alive at night and the noise can be deafening and I went night after night with no sleep. I'm sure TMP has some similar experiences.

I saw my intitial anxiety at not having sufficient sleep as part of the problem and these days I just accept a night of no sleep in the sure knowledge that I have survived much much worse and that there is no harm it. It is inconvenient but nothing more. My recent 14 hour drive, day and night, from Nice to Calais, was a doddle. Acceptence is the key. Accept it and enjoy it. If I don't sleep these days I lay awake and read and enjoy the reading, or I play chess online and enjoy it, or post a load of bollocks on this ere esteemed forum and enjoy it or I meditate a little or even alot and I enjoy it. If sleep comes then great and if not, well then its not really so bad, I have survived far worse, so what? The worst thing is to obsess about it.

I have read, however, that people who sleep less than 8 hours and people who sleep more than 8 hours live, on average, less long! Judging by the amount of sleep I get I expect to be pegging out at 60!!

I agree that vegging out in front of the TV is bad, especially whilst in bed.

One thing I have found is that I sleep better if I have had a good dose of sunlight in the morning.

Regards,

Erik

Erik

We must be different.

I rose at 6.00am this morning. I breakfasted on porridge mixed with raisons, bananas, strawberries and a teaspoonful of whiskey. This was followed by 3 slices of toast, butter and Frank Coopers marmalade. This was washed down with a large mug off strong coffee. I always have a large breakfast as it sets me up for the day.

Lunch tends to be light but dinner is always two courses with a bottle of wine between the two of us.

Since I have retired, I probably cycle say 5 days a week and live a normal life.

I always have a large glass of whisky late in the evening and usually retire at midnight.

I always sleep like a log and I never drop off during the day.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:

I always sleep like a log and I never drop off during the day.

Ah but you would, most assuredly you would after running around the countryside, up and down hills etc. with a pack on your back, a pack that is so heavy it is hard to lift the damn thing up on your shoulders in the first place much less ran around with day and night, day and night, day and night all without a wink of sleep because there is no time for sleep - it simply is not allowed. A few days of this and you will sleep standing naked on your head in freezing cold rain with Iron Maiden playing live 2 feet away and Pamela Anderson dancing naked in front of you as she beats you with a stick.

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
Last monday night - 3 hours sleep
Last tuesay night - 3 hours sleep

Damn good sex helps too

The problem with quoting how many hours sleep you have is that you cannot know when you actually fall asleep (unless you have some monitor).

The problem with quoting damn good sex is that you sound like a pubescent prat.

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
Last monday night - 3 hours sleep
Last tuesay night - 3 hours sleep

Damn good sex helps too

The problem with quoting how many hours sleep you have is that you cannot know when you actually fall asleep (unless you have some monitor).

The problem with quoting damn good sex is that you sound like a pubescent prat.

Nigel,

Well let's say I am awake at 6.oo am and I see the clock and I say to myself 'Self, it is 6.00 am' and the next thing I know is that I awake and that it is 9.00 am I can deduce (because I am a bright chap)that I have had something approaching 3 hours sleep. It may have been less but I round it up so as not to quibble about half an hour here or there.

The problem with quoting my quote re. damn good sex and your remark is that you sound like a sanctimonious old tosser (again).

Sanctimonious - good word isn't it?

Feigning piety or righteousness, self-righteous, goody-goody:

“a solemn, unsmiling, sanctimonious old iceberg that looked like he was waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity” (Mark Twain).

Eric

replying to your own posts is not a good sign - need more sleep perhaps? (clock says 6.00 wake up at 9.00 = less than (but actual time unknown) 3 hours. And I am not at all clever. If you don't use a 24 hour setting it could of course be much more than 3 hours.

Nothing wrong with damn good sex except that adults rarely feel the need to boast about it - unless it is an infrequent occurrence.

Infrequent – good word – means you don’t get it often.

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:

Niggle old chop,

[QUOTE] replying to your own posts is not a good sign - need more sleep perhaps? (clock says 6.00 wake up at 9.00 = less than (but actual time unknown) 3 hours. And I am not at all clever. If you don't use a 24 hour setting it could of course be much more than 3 hours.

Did I reply to my own post or merely make another post? Please note I wrote 'had something approaching 3 hours sleep. It may have been less but I round it up so as not to quibble about half an hour here or there' so this would seem to make your point redundant IMO. I agree your point about your lack of cleverness.

quote:

Nothing wrong with damn good sex except that adults rarely feel the need to boast about it - unless it is an infrequent occurrence.

I am glad we agree on something. Please show me where I boasted about having damn good sex. If you can find it I will donate £5,000 to the charity of your choice.

I agree with your definition of the word infrequent. Maybe if you were getting it often you would be less sanctimonious towards those you assumed were getting it often? Just a thought.

Mick, sounds like a good retirement to me. But a spoon of whiskey in your porridge? That's new to me. What do I know I'm a granola eater on the west coast.

I agree with the whiskey at the end of the day tho, I like my happy hour too. Best accompanied by some tunes, and a friend if possible. I've just stepped up from a blended Canadian Club to Jack Daniels Sour Mash. Higher octaine and better taste.

glenn

Time to put this thread to bed.

zzzzzzzzzz

Bruce

Erik is quite right in his analogy of “good sex helps you sleep”. This is a well known fact that neurotransmitters’ known as Endorphins, which as it happens, are the bodies’ natural pain killer. These get released by the body after physical exercise, that then bind with opiate receptors within the brain, it’s these Endorphins that help you relax, (plus they’re a self confidence booster) which is why Erik falls asleep after sex, and the quicker you fall asleep the better the sex was, along with a dig in his ribs, followed by a comment like, “is that it, what about me”, most other honest men, should know what I mean by this!


Dopamine is also known as an endorphin, now this can be found in good quality chocolate like 70% cocoa solids, not Cadburys dairy milk, so try eating a small amount and see if it helps you sleep.

Do men stay up late; too avoid the sexual advances of their partners if suffering from impotence?


Beanonthejob.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beano:

“is that it, what about me”, So you know her too?

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beano:

“is that it, what about me”, So you know her too?

If I'm honest on the odd rare occasion I've had that quote, quoted, as has just about every man I know I hope!

I never have. I've had 'you sick weirdo, I'm leaving' a few times though.

There is time yet Erik

One thing is an absolute certainty though Erik, and that is... oversleeping will not make your dreams come true.

quote:

Please show me where I boasted about having damn good sex. If you can find it I will donate £5,000 to the charity of your choice.

If you can show me where I accused you of boasting, you need not donate anything.

quote:

Originally posted by JeremyD:
Unfortunately, I have had some bad experiences with arrogant and/or ignorant health professionals who were happy to rubbish ideas with which they were not acquainted and promote as fact what sometimes turned out to be, to put it bluntly, little more than medical superstition. I don't know Rockingdoc and I am not saying it reflect his thinking but this is the attitude I perceive when doctors make dismissive generalisations.

Dear Jeremy

I hope that you wouldn't recognise me from my forum persona if you met me in a genuine clinical setting as I make every effort to avoid the blunt arrogant stance in real life and hope to be empathetic.

A hi-fi forum is not real life (for me at least) and I feel free to make any outrageous announcements which take my fancy. You may recall that I used to use the forum pseudonames of "Jekyll" and "Hyde" to give warning of the direction my post was coming from on each occasion. I got bored with logging on and off, so resumed the equally fictitious "Rockingdoc", which was the name given to me by a radio station where I had a regular program.

For over five years I have advised against using this forum (and most of the internet) for sensible health advice. Pull yourself together boy, this is about entertaiment!

I had sleep problems for years which turned out to be caused by an underlying physical health problem. I found something as simple as drinking more water and drinking fewer caffeinated drinks helped significantly. Alcohol also does not help. I have also used some hypnosis/relaxation techniques which have been stunningly effective and can fall asleep in a matter of minutes pretty much anywhere if I want! Where I still suffer however is with jet lag and regular business trips to Asia cause major sleep problems for me.
John

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:

quote:

Please show me where I boasted about having damn good sex. If you can find it I will donate £5,000 to the charity of your choice.

If you can show me where I accused you of boasting, you need not donate anything.

It seems I have taught you something. Good effort Nigel.