Ray Davies mugged, shot in New Orleans
Posted by: jayd on 05 January 2004
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Bruce Woodhouse
Mick
In your world we have only criminals and victims. Nobody can cross between these camps (as they are dead or locked up if the former). Your statement that 'all muggers are scum who are all unreformable' defines this viewpoint.
I'll differ. I think we are shaped by situation, experience and opportunity. I think we can be one and the other, sometimes even both of your classifications. To deny any chance of change, or punish people who are themselves frequently serial victims seems to me the grossest of simplifications. Removing 'all the criminals' to vast concrete death camps is close to eugenics, it has that air of'cleansing the undesirables'.
Bruce
The Booker prize was recently won by a criminal worthless scum.
In your world we have only criminals and victims. Nobody can cross between these camps (as they are dead or locked up if the former). Your statement that 'all muggers are scum who are all unreformable' defines this viewpoint.
I'll differ. I think we are shaped by situation, experience and opportunity. I think we can be one and the other, sometimes even both of your classifications. To deny any chance of change, or punish people who are themselves frequently serial victims seems to me the grossest of simplifications. Removing 'all the criminals' to vast concrete death camps is close to eugenics, it has that air of'cleansing the undesirables'.
Bruce
The Booker prize was recently won by a criminal worthless scum.
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Former member
I'm reminded of an extreme cartoon character called Judge Death who's catch phrase was
quote:
All crime is committed by the living, therefore Life is a crime
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Mick P
Some criminals need help and some need punishment.
Any person who walks the streets with a gun in their hand and uses it to rob someone has overstepped the limit.
That person is just plain unreformable and I put the needs of inocent people way higher than his.
He should be kept of the streets until he is no longer a threat. If that means locking him up for at least 20 years, then let us do it.
My own view is that locking them up until their 65th birthday is a reasonable thing to do. After that age, he is inlikely to be a threat.
The other point (kill for a sheep as for a Lamb) is readily solved by hanging. You will think twice about going out with a gun if you know that you are likely to be hung or imprisoned for most of your life.
I have no concerns for muggers and murderers. Either imprison them or hang them.
Incidently, I know a few Policemen socially and believe me, they all favour my approach.
Regards
Mick
Any person who walks the streets with a gun in their hand and uses it to rob someone has overstepped the limit.
That person is just plain unreformable and I put the needs of inocent people way higher than his.
He should be kept of the streets until he is no longer a threat. If that means locking him up for at least 20 years, then let us do it.
My own view is that locking them up until their 65th birthday is a reasonable thing to do. After that age, he is inlikely to be a threat.
The other point (kill for a sheep as for a Lamb) is readily solved by hanging. You will think twice about going out with a gun if you know that you are likely to be hung or imprisoned for most of your life.
I have no concerns for muggers and murderers. Either imprison them or hang them.
Incidently, I know a few Policemen socially and believe me, they all favour my approach.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by jayd
"And he’s oh, so good,
And he’s oh, so fine,
And he’s oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He’s a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively..."
And he’s oh, so fine,
And he’s oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He’s a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively..."
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Former member
Mick
"Incidently, I know a few Policemen socially and believe me, they all favour my approach."
That doesn't give you credibility. Most policemen are still taking their GCSE's to prove they are more than a prefect. Believe me, I've shot a few, it wasn't difficult.
I say bring back the gun clubs and make the world a more equal place.
Anyway, I'm just mixing my refined Potassium Permanganate with Glycerine (all brought from the Chemist) close to freezing, compacted nicely in a steel cylinder, and will plant within a pub just after opening times, and when the temperature reaches about 60F, there should be a nice explosion killing several people.
You see? this explosive is legal and available. The world really is mad and dangerous.
"Incidently, I know a few Policemen socially and believe me, they all favour my approach."
That doesn't give you credibility. Most policemen are still taking their GCSE's to prove they are more than a prefect. Believe me, I've shot a few, it wasn't difficult.
I say bring back the gun clubs and make the world a more equal place.
Anyway, I'm just mixing my refined Potassium Permanganate with Glycerine (all brought from the Chemist) close to freezing, compacted nicely in a steel cylinder, and will plant within a pub just after opening times, and when the temperature reaches about 60F, there should be a nice explosion killing several people.
You see? this explosive is legal and available. The world really is mad and dangerous.
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by ErikL
Mick, have you considered cases where a suspect is wrongly accused and sentenced?
On reform... People make mistakes, some more serious than others. They grow up, they get perspective, they change, blah, blah, blah. For fuck's sake, perhaps the greatest American of the 1900's was a criminal before educating himself in a dimly-lit prison cell: Malcolm X*.
There's always hope.
(* Sentenced to 10 years for armed robbery; also peddled drugs and prostitutes prior to prison)
On reform... People make mistakes, some more serious than others. They grow up, they get perspective, they change, blah, blah, blah. For fuck's sake, perhaps the greatest American of the 1900's was a criminal before educating himself in a dimly-lit prison cell: Malcolm X*.
There's always hope.
(* Sentenced to 10 years for armed robbery; also peddled drugs and prostitutes prior to prison)
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Mick P
If someone deliberately shoots someone else then they should be removed from the streets forever.
The person who shot Ray Davies is scum and it is best for society that he decomposes in a prison cell.
Regards
Mick
The person who shot Ray Davies is scum and it is best for society that he decomposes in a prison cell.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by ErikL
Louisiana Gun Laws
Anti-Trafficking
Is there a one-handgun-per-month limit on gun sales? NO
No state restrictions on gun-trafficking such as a limit on the number of handguns that can be purchased at one time. Gun traffickers can easily buy large quantities of handguns at gun stores and resell them on the street to criminals.
Assault Weapons
Are there limitations on assault weapons and magazines? NO
No state restriction on the sale or possession of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons like the AK47 and Uzi. Assault weapons are as easy to buy as hunting rifles. No restriction on the sale or possession of rapid-fire ammunition magazines that can fire up to 100 bullets without reloading. Federal law does prevent the sale of some assault weapons and rapid-fire magazines manufactured after 1994, but the federal law will sunset in 2004 unless Congress and President Bush renew it.
Background Check At State Level
Do state police perform a background check in addition to federal NICS check? NO
Louisiana: State law does not require gun buyers to go through any state-based criminal background check. Gun buyers only go through the more limited federal NICS check. This could create a serious problem because the federal records are often not as complete or up-to-date as state records. Failure to check state records may allow prohibited gun buyers, like those under recently-issued restraining orders or those with mental illness, to improperly buy guns.
Gun Show Checks
Are background checks required at gun shows? NO
No state requirement that a Brady criminal background check be done on people buying guns at gun shows if they are sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors." Gun shows can operate on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want at gun shows, including assault weapons. No records are required to be kept on gun show sales by private individuals or gun collectors, making it almost impossible for police to trace such weapons if they are used in a crime.
License or Permit to Purchase
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns? NO
No state requirement that handgun buyers obtain a handgun license or undergo any type of safety training prior to buying a handgun.
Saturday Night Specials
Are there limitations on 'junk' handguns? NO
No state restriction on the sale of Saturday night specials or "junk" handguns. No requirement that handguns meet any safety tests such as a drop-safety test or a firing-performance test. No restriction on the sale of snub-nosed handguns that are very small and easy to conceal.
Secondary Sales
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? NO
No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check.
Add in the fact that Lousisiana has long been one of the poorest states and among the weakest in job growth and you get desparate people taking desparate measures. Then there's this, from Lousiana's Department of Education:
"...Louisiana children to be the poorest and most at risk of failure of children in any state in the country. According to the report, children in Louisiana are at serious risk due to a combination of four or more chronic family conditions: growing up in a single parent home, having parents with low educational attainment, living in poverty, having parents who are not in the work force, being dependent on welfare, and lacking health insurance... Louisiana has the largest number of children in four or more categories. Thirty-two percent of Louisiana children live in poverty (ranking 50th, ahead of the District of Columbia); 39 percent live with parents who do not have full-time, year-round employment (ranking 49th, ahead of West Virginia and the District of Columbia); and 35 percent come from single-parent families (ranking 49th, ahead of Mississippi and the District of Columbia)."
Anti-Trafficking
Is there a one-handgun-per-month limit on gun sales? NO
No state restrictions on gun-trafficking such as a limit on the number of handguns that can be purchased at one time. Gun traffickers can easily buy large quantities of handguns at gun stores and resell them on the street to criminals.
Assault Weapons
Are there limitations on assault weapons and magazines? NO
No state restriction on the sale or possession of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons like the AK47 and Uzi. Assault weapons are as easy to buy as hunting rifles. No restriction on the sale or possession of rapid-fire ammunition magazines that can fire up to 100 bullets without reloading. Federal law does prevent the sale of some assault weapons and rapid-fire magazines manufactured after 1994, but the federal law will sunset in 2004 unless Congress and President Bush renew it.
Background Check At State Level
Do state police perform a background check in addition to federal NICS check? NO
Louisiana: State law does not require gun buyers to go through any state-based criminal background check. Gun buyers only go through the more limited federal NICS check. This could create a serious problem because the federal records are often not as complete or up-to-date as state records. Failure to check state records may allow prohibited gun buyers, like those under recently-issued restraining orders or those with mental illness, to improperly buy guns.
Gun Show Checks
Are background checks required at gun shows? NO
No state requirement that a Brady criminal background check be done on people buying guns at gun shows if they are sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors." Gun shows can operate on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want at gun shows, including assault weapons. No records are required to be kept on gun show sales by private individuals or gun collectors, making it almost impossible for police to trace such weapons if they are used in a crime.
License or Permit to Purchase
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns? NO
No state requirement that handgun buyers obtain a handgun license or undergo any type of safety training prior to buying a handgun.
Saturday Night Specials
Are there limitations on 'junk' handguns? NO
No state restriction on the sale of Saturday night specials or "junk" handguns. No requirement that handguns meet any safety tests such as a drop-safety test or a firing-performance test. No restriction on the sale of snub-nosed handguns that are very small and easy to conceal.
Secondary Sales
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? NO
No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check.
Add in the fact that Lousisiana has long been one of the poorest states and among the weakest in job growth and you get desparate people taking desparate measures. Then there's this, from Lousiana's Department of Education:
"...Louisiana children to be the poorest and most at risk of failure of children in any state in the country. According to the report, children in Louisiana are at serious risk due to a combination of four or more chronic family conditions: growing up in a single parent home, having parents with low educational attainment, living in poverty, having parents who are not in the work force, being dependent on welfare, and lacking health insurance... Louisiana has the largest number of children in four or more categories. Thirty-two percent of Louisiana children live in poverty (ranking 50th, ahead of the District of Columbia); 39 percent live with parents who do not have full-time, year-round employment (ranking 49th, ahead of West Virginia and the District of Columbia); and 35 percent come from single-parent families (ranking 49th, ahead of Mississippi and the District of Columbia)."
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by herm
desperate measures
Somebody shooting an ex-kink is certainly pretty desperate, and I'm sure Oliver Stone is taking script meetings right now.
However I'm sure somebody else has been mugged and shot since the monumental Davies shooting, so perhaps a new thread is in order.
There's a couple of things in this thread I resent, but perhaps none more than the notion that bad luck occurring to a rich has-been pop star is cause for great concern whereas the rest of the population is irrelevant.
This may sound a tad unreasonable so I guess I should conclude with: innit?
Herman
Somebody shooting an ex-kink is certainly pretty desperate, and I'm sure Oliver Stone is taking script meetings right now.
However I'm sure somebody else has been mugged and shot since the monumental Davies shooting, so perhaps a new thread is in order.
There's a couple of things in this thread I resent, but perhaps none more than the notion that bad luck occurring to a rich has-been pop star is cause for great concern whereas the rest of the population is irrelevant.
This may sound a tad unreasonable so I guess I should conclude with: innit?
Herman
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Former member
quote:This is rather given the lie by the fact that many people who serve sentences for armed robbery do not re-offend.
Any person who walks the streets with a gun in their hand and uses it to rob someone has overstepped the limit.
That person is just plain unreformable
I suspect Mick (who always strikes me as a decent human being) is reluctant to see criminals (or benefit claimants or asylum seekers) as people or consider the role that poverty plays in criminal behaviour in case it undermines his confidence that he deserves a CD player which costs more than many families will have to spend on food and clothes this year.
David
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by jayd
quote:
There's a couple of things in this thread I resent, perhaps none more than the notion that bad luck occurring to a rich has-been pop star is cause for great concern whereas the rest of the population is irrelevant.
We routinely post obituaries of musicians in this area. I've yet to see an obit for someone's grandmother posted here, worthy though they might have been of recognition. I see no disregard of the greater population in this. Innocent people getting shot is deplorable no matter what their station, but this is a forum about music and musicians.
Granted, this was no obituary, but as it was news about a popular musician, I posted it. Had I known it would turn into a debate on gun control and capital punishment, I'd have just whispered a "Get well, Ray" to myself and called it good.
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by andy c
quote:
That doesn't give you credibility. Most policemen are still taking their GCSE's to prove they are more than a prefect. Believe me, I've shot a few, it wasn't difficult.
PR,
Either this is your idea of a gag, in which it ain't funny, and if you're being serious it ain't funny either.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Perhaps you'd like to explain this gag to the next of kin of the west yorks cop who was shot recently...
I will abstain from the rest of this debate if this is the level its going to...
The above comment is in bad taste and should be deleted.
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Rasher
But I don't feel afraid
As long as I gaze on Waterloo sunset
I am in paradise
......So what were you doing in LA Ray?..huh?
As long as I gaze on Waterloo sunset
I am in paradise
......So what were you doing in LA Ray?..huh?
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by andy c
Oh and also until you get into perspective why these type of crime's occur...
Well over 80% is drugs related. The crim does the deed to feed their habit. This is statistically proven by the way thru testing of persons arrested etc.
Just go do some research on the home office web site...
Well over 80% is drugs related. The crim does the deed to feed their habit. This is statistically proven by the way thru testing of persons arrested etc.
Just go do some research on the home office web site...
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Former member
Wot? They're all heroin or crack addicts who need to feed their habit?
Tom
Actively enjoying it all
Tom
Actively enjoying it all
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Rasher
You mean they were trying to steal Ray's stash?
Posted on: 06 January 2004 by Former member
andy c
I was hoping for a little reaction, because my comments are attitude. That's what you face, that's the challenge, that's what leads to drugs, robbery and murder. It's no surprise that attorney follows attitude in the dictionary, they both need and loath each other.
Ask yourself this, what justifies the innocent murder of police officers in the Iraq campaign?
I was hoping for a little reaction, because my comments are attitude. That's what you face, that's the challenge, that's what leads to drugs, robbery and murder. It's no surprise that attorney follows attitude in the dictionary, they both need and loath each other.
Ask yourself this, what justifies the innocent murder of police officers in the Iraq campaign?
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by domfjbrown
quote:
Originally posted by andy c:
Oh and also until you get into perspective why these type of crime's occur...
Well over 80% is drugs related. The crim does the deed to feed their habit. This is statistically proven by the way thru testing of persons arrested etc.
Just go do some research on the home office web site...
Great - so when you DO convict them, what do you do? Give them free Heroin on US on the NHS. Why don't the officials lock them up and force cold turkey on them, then tag them like a dog or cat so they can be traced. Failing that - a GPRS or GSM tag would do the job - watch where the theiving lowlife scum goes... If they return to drugs, a nice painful OD with no medical help would be a nice just desert...
I've been mugged. My mate's been mugged at knife point. Yet another got mugged one week, and frogmarched back to his flat which was then ransacked, trashed, and all while he was held at sharpened-screwdriver-point. About 3 months after that, a druggy scum pussywhip who didn't even have enough balls to front him smashed him into a wall from behind, broke his jaw and a tooth, took his wallet (with a tenner in it!) and made off, leaving him to pay for his medical bills since there's no NHS dentists. Great Britain - my arse.
What's wrong with locking them up and forcing them to do hard labour - there's plenty of roads, railways etc in this country that need fixing. Why pay private comapnies to do that when scummy third class crims could do it for free (with a gun in the back for a bowl of rice a da - a'la Pol Pot)?
You could work those shitheads to death for all I care - saves me putting the boot in next time a mugger tries it on on me. OK - I admit - that's all mouth - as last time, I'd just be cowering with fear in case they had a tazar, gun or knife. (Believe it or not - I've NEVER been in a fight and don't intend to start...) Mind you - if they had a gun I'd probably front them since I've got a deathwish, and you'd have to be a tool to try to fire a gun in a city centre...
The death penalty though - hmm - a tricky one. For people like Sutcliffe, Shipman, West, Nilssen (Dennis, not the singer one!) etc, death by dumping into a coal fired power station is good. But what about the wrongly convicted ones like Timothy Evans from the 10 Rillington Place murders?? After all, inlawful killing is murder - whether state sponsored or not. (DID I really just say that? God - my new year's resolution of trying to chill out and calm down is really working!!!)
__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by Rasher
Domf - Re-read your first 3 paras. Nah...it's not working just yet 
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by matthewr
"DID I really just say that? God - my new year's resolution of trying to chill out and calm down is really working!!!"
A statement that is perhaps slightly undermined by coming at the end of a 200 word, semi-coherent, bile filled rant.
Matthew
A statement that is perhaps slightly undermined by coming at the end of a 200 word, semi-coherent, bile filled rant.
Matthew
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by Derek Wright
Legalise drugs, supply them in a controlled manner and the associated crime will drop, (And levy VAT on the drugs as well)
Addicts will then have a better chance of getting treatment as there is no crime involved and pushing (as a trade) will disappear as there will be no opportunity to grow the dealers market.
Just a naive view from the sidelines
Derek
<< >>
Addicts will then have a better chance of getting treatment as there is no crime involved and pushing (as a trade) will disappear as there will be no opportunity to grow the dealers market.
Just a naive view from the sidelines
Derek
<< >>
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by matthewr
I believe Portugal has just become the first country to decriminalise all drugs.
(Which I suspect will do more to reduce the number of drug addicts in Spain than anything else but you have to admire them having the guts to try something radical).
Matthew
(Which I suspect will do more to reduce the number of drug addicts in Spain than anything else but you have to admire them having the guts to try something radical).
Matthew
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by Simon Perry
I think that the reason why there are always such 'extreme' views aired on the forum whenever law and order is mentioned is that there is a perception among a large proportion of the population that sentences actually served are not long enough. Either they are long enough and society needs to be educated as to why this is the case, or they're not. Which is it?
I would be interested in seeing some figures on average sentences served for a range of crimes...
Simon
I would be interested in seeing some figures on average sentences served for a range of crimes...
Simon
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by Former member
quote:This is still only done in a minority of cases, but the evidence is apparently good that it allows many people to rebuild their lives and STOP OFFENDING. Not exactly rocket science, but with lots of people who think like Dom around you can see why it's a political hot potato. I don't think Heroin is particularly expensive compared to other forms of treatment.
Give them free Heroin on US on the NHS.
quote:Which is more important a measure that reduces crime or a measure which inflicts humiliating punishments on offenders? Generally people become criminals because of their drug habit not the other way around.
Why don't the officials lock them up and force cold turkey on them, then tag them like a dog or cat so they can be traced.
quote:I have an NHS dentist. I'm sorry if there aren't any near you.
leaving him to pay for his medical bills since there's no NHS dentists.
David
Posted on: 07 January 2004 by Mick P
You said..."Which is more important a measure that reduces crime or a measure which inflicts humiliating punishments on offenders? Generally people become criminals because of their drug habit not the other way around."
You are missing the point. So OK, a mugger may be where he is because of drugs but he is now a dangerous and vicious animal who needs to be permanently removed from the streets.
Anyone who tries drugs is a total fool, they know the risks. If they want to experiment, on their own head be it.
The answer is to remove them from the streets at minimal cost. It may not be good for them but it is good for those who want to walk the streets safely.
Regards
Mick...amazed that anyone is even remotely concerned about gun carriers or muggers.
You are missing the point. So OK, a mugger may be where he is because of drugs but he is now a dangerous and vicious animal who needs to be permanently removed from the streets.
Anyone who tries drugs is a total fool, they know the risks. If they want to experiment, on their own head be it.
The answer is to remove them from the streets at minimal cost. It may not be good for them but it is good for those who want to walk the streets safely.
Regards
Mick...amazed that anyone is even remotely concerned about gun carriers or muggers.