Ray Davies mugged, shot in New Orleans

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Mick...amazed that anyone is even remotely concerned about gun carriers or muggers.

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It's called being Human and is what puts us above the animals

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Anyone who tries drugs is a total fool

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So what is all the talk about ethyl alcohol that is freely imbibed by the likes of Mick P - it is just as much a drug as the illegal recreational pharmaceuticals

If cocaine/heroin/etc was legal and booze was illegal......

Derek

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For Mick and Dom, a quote that probably appeals:

One judge sentencing another...

"However, I probably shouldn't punish you, because we're so short of judges at the moment, what with all of them emigrating to South Africa. ...I'm going tomorrow, I've got my ticket. Get out there and get some decent sentencing done. Ooh, England makes you sick! Best I can manage here is life imprisonment. It's hardly worth coming in in the morning. Now, South Africa! You've got your cat of nine tails, you've got four death sentences a week, you've got cheap drinks, slave labour and a booming stock market. I'm off, I tell you. Yes, I'm up to here with probation and bleeding psychiatric reports. That's it, I'm off. That's it. Right! Well, I'm going to have one final fling before I leave, so... I sentence you to be burnt at the stake."

nick.lees at btinternet.com

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So OK, a mugger may be where he is because of drugs but he is now a dangerous and vicious animal who needs to be permanently removed from the streets.

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Actually I know someone who's on prescription heroin and he's a charming, sensitive highly intelligent individual who looks after his aging mother and is gainfully employed. I admit that trying heroin wasn't one of his brighter ideas. I have no idea if he used to mug people but he certainly used to steal and commit fraud to support his habit. Now he doesn't have to I doubt if he's much more likely to do these things than you or I.

David

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
A statement that is perhaps slightly undermined by coming at the end of a 200 word, semi-coherent, bile filled rant.

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Tell you what Matt - next time you have a good mate who can't eat for 4 weeks you come back to me and tell me how sweet life is hey? Also - have YOU ever been mugged - it's not particularly pleasent especially if you can't see them well enough to even give a description... (I've been burgled as well by the way)

Oh - and since it's you (who always has a go when I mention anything to do with this kind of thing) - I've stopped worrying about single mothers/asylum/dole at long last, so that's one subject you guys won't have to put up with. Sick and tired of whingeing to be honest - better things to do. Muggers though - hmm, that's a little different. Having someone in your face (who may or may not be armed/psycho) rifling through your wallet is a little different to the government doing it via tax (let's face it, if it didn't go on one thing they'd nick it for something else, so put up and shut up I guess - no-one can opt out of income tax if they earn legitimately)...

I could have been a lot nastier - it is only the 7th Jan after all. I'm working on the mellow thing...

As for Vuk's heroin using friend, well, obviously there's exceptions to the rule, but surely if you stop them taking it AND get them through cold turkey, then helping them out to get back into society is cheaper than paying for their H and getting them back into society?

Mind you, you guys might very well be right about cheapness of H compared to other methods...

Vuk - I too have an NHS dentist - now I've left Reading My mate Russ is still paying for his treatment due to the attack over a year later though...

I think Derek Wright's got something interesting with "If cocaine/heroin/etc was legal and booze was illegal......" - if all the lager louts had access to E in the 70s, football hooliganism would never have happened.

Not sure I'd want to be fronted by a load of people high on cocaine though - that stuff really is a creator of assholes if people don't know when to stop...

Let's face it though - certain drugs prevent people wanting to fight; alcohol seems to make people want to prove something. So banning alcohol and legalising other things could be an interesting experiment. Mind you, if it was all legal, young impressionable people might never want to be bothered to try it since it's socially acceptable then...

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

Many people I knew growing up are long term herion addicts. Including my best friend who relapsed just before Xmas after 2.5 years drug free (following fantastic support and treatment via the NHS) and sold his rented TV and disappeared in the firm's van and has not been seen since.

He's a hopeless addict, he's done all sorts of truly despicable things, has had endless second chances, very nearly went to prison the last time he messed up and will almost certainly be locked up for a long time if he's still alive when the police finally catch up with him.

Despite all that he remains one of the finest, if obviously flawed, human beings I know and, if it weren't for the drugs, I'd trust him with my life. I can honestly say I know far more drug free, crime free "respectable" people who are by comparison utter scumbags and a fraction of the person my friend is despite his catastrophic problems.

Of course there are utter scumbags who become drug addicts (and I know quite a few of them as well) but, like any other groups, the individuals vary greatly in their personal qualities and behaviour. In my experience they range from the archtypal ruthless scumbag, to the sad and pathetic, to the truly tragic. Suprisingly few are violent in my experience and in fact they tend to be quite meek and passive on the whole. Quite a lot of them are women of course (including my first ever girlfriend who now enjoys the name of "Scag Anna").

Drug addicts don't need sympathy and they certainly don't need letting off from taking responsibility for their actions and their crimes. What they do need is more realistic treatment (including the option of long term maintenance doses) which would not only improve their lives immeasureably but would do more to help reduce property crime than any number of extra Bobbies wandering around the streets outside nice middle class homes in middle England.

Matthew

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
What they do need is more realistic treatment (including the option of long term maintenance doses) which would not only improve their lives immeasureably but would do more to help reduce property crime than any number of extra Bobbies wandering around the streets outside nice middle class homes in middle England.

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And in actual fact the "maintenance doses" might well be cheaper than bobbies... Maybe someone should do a real survey into the costs of something like this; isn't most non-organised drugs crime down to H and coke? They certainly seem to come up as ones that are the most addictive yet widely available drugs - or am I wrong on this?

BTW - one of my best mates at school got into H and has just got out for manslaughter (rumour has it he smothered his landlord/dealer (no-one knows which)); so they're not all meek. Oh - and he's totally blind as well - so highly dangerous imho now he's back out. If you live in the Glocester region... Mind you, he was always destined for oblivion. I'm not in any hurry to make contact with him...

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

domfjbrown said "next time you have a good mate who can't eat for 4 weeks you come back to me and tell me how sweet life is hey"

Three people I went to school with have been murdered.

"Also - have YOU ever been mugged - it's not particularly pleasent especially if you can't see them well enough to even give a description... (I've been burgled as well by the way)"

I've been held up at gunpoint in Watson's (an illegal drinking club in Moss Side). I was burgled twice while living in Manchester including once when I was in while it happened.

"My mate Russ is still paying for his treatment due to the attack over a year later though..."

He should have been entitled to claim under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board.

Matthew

"And in actual fact the "maintenance doses" might well be cheaper than bobbies"

Heroin is a dirt cheap, non-patent medicine andjust about the cheapest drug in wide use in the NHS. It would cost very little to prescibe it to addicts.

Its also, rather ironically, considerable safer than paracetamol.

Matthew

Matthew - first off I'll take back the slight swipe - as I mentioned I'm doing my best to be less agressive with all this kind of stuff this year...

...but can you explain to me one thing - if all this has happened to you, how can you be so lenient on people that do this kind of stuff? Just curious? I mean, I was brought up as Catholic (non practising now) and I KNOW it's wrong to hate someone but if all that happened to me I'd be the last person to be leniant!

I still stand by my being less scared to have a gun at my head than a knife at my throat though - not to trivialise, but I reckon Soap got it right in Lock Stock - pros use a knife - they'll be less afraid to use it and it won't draw attention to them if used... That said, having never had a gun to my head...

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

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if you stop them taking it AND get them through cold turkey, then helping them out to get back into society is cheaper than paying for their H and getting them back into society?

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Getting through cold turkey seems relatively easy it's staying clean that people find hard, so given the cost of rehab, the incidence of recidivism, and the ability of many people on maintenance doses of heroin to get themselves 'back into society' this may sometimes be the cheaper option.

Mudslinging aside the thing to take away from this thread, I think, is Matthew's last paragraph

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Drug addicts don't need sympathy and they certainly don't need letting off from taking responsibility for their actions and their crimes. What they do need is more realistic treatment (including the option of long term maintenance doses) which would not only improve their lives immeasureably but would do more to help reduce property crime than any number of extra Bobbies wandering around the streets outside nice middle class homes in middle England.

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Just noticed the debate's moved on while I've been writing this, but I'll let it stand.

David

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Heroin is a dirt cheap, non-patent medicine andjust about the cheapest drug in wide use in the NHS. It would cost very little to prescibe it to addicts.

Its also, rather ironically, considerable safer than paracetamol.

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Blimey - you learn something new every day - that's quite an eye opener...

Oh - Russ was probably ill-advised by Reading Police - they're not the most efficient. In the case of the burglary we had, they had had over 150 similar incidents in the area by a person matching the description - but could do sweet FA...

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

"any number of extra Bobbies wandering around the streets outside nice middle class homes in middle England".

Many, probably most, crimes are committed on the "working class", by the "working class". I'm sure this is in part Matthew's point, but personally I would like to see the police patrol these areas more, for the sake of the people stuck in these places. I write this having lived in Homerton and Hackney. It can be pretty bleak.

Simon

Nice to see the story handled sensitively by BBC Breakfast's Bill Turnbull:

"One moment he's in London getting a CBE in the New Year's Honours list and then he's in New Orleans getting a bullet. I know which I'd rather have"

Well done Bill.

Matthew

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I was hoping for a little reaction, because my comments are attitude.

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PR, hope I didn't dissapoint.

With regard to some other comments - I remember readin about an experiment that took place in a large town in the UK recently (Last 2-3 years) where the local Health Service supplied heroin for a certain period free - the crime rate dropped by over 70%!

There may have been local factors that influenced that figure but it still makes drastic reading all the same.

Also IMO people who take habitual drugs (drink can be included in this) do so for one reason - 'cos they like the effects the drug initially has on their system. Then when they get used to it they need more to try and achieve the same 'high'. They then get addicted and blame everyone else for their problem!

I'll get me coat!

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
Apparently a gun toting Alan Scott

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That's SHERIFF Alan Scott to you, buddy.

Hey, I'm off to live in the borderlands. Come and catch me, ....if you can.

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

I've got me a posse and a palomino. We won't rest until that varmint Two-Gun Tom is wearing a Laramie necktie.

Alan, armed and dangerous

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Originally posted by andy c:
Also IMO people who take _habitual_ drugs (drink can be included in this) do so for one reason - 'cos they like the effects the drug initially has on their system. Then when they get used to it they need more to try and achieve the same 'high'. They then get addicted and blame everyone else for their problem!

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Yep - this is true - it's like the samples in "Mescaline" off the "Mescalator EP" by 1200 Mics:
"One thing I've learnt from years of dealing with drug people is you can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug"....

That one really makes you think...

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.