Emperors New Clothes or am I just cloth eared?

Dear Richard,

Does it matter if you cannot hear this or that difference? To the total amasement of friends though I can incremental changes in quality of this or that piece of Hifi, I simply no longer care. I listen with the given set and find if the music draws me in. If yes, then the set is a success. A Tivoli Model One Radio is entirely a success in these terms for me.

My little set is nothing like as good as the one I had two years ago [largely unaltered for four years: Old: CDS2/52/200/SBLs. New: Marantz CD player recorder/72/Hi/140/Royd Minstrels.

I was lucky to listen music through a Lavry D 10 DAC feeding directly from a Macbook and to a very nice Berning valve amp and Art speakers, so far, far better than my little set of antiques. I took my Minstrels with me as I needed a source that would match the speakers. We listened with both sets of speakers ...

Do you know that I hardly noted the rather large difference between thousands of pounds worth of Art speakers and my Minstrels [cost 100 pounds second hand] and I am delighted that the difference seems entirely irrelevant to me. The music involved in both cases ...

I shall also be delighted to permanently pack my CDs away, never [except as emergency back-up] to be levered out of their horrible plastic cases again.

I am delighted not to polute my living environment with shelves of off coloured fading CD or LP covers. Given me my books and music scores to go on shelves ...

But most of all getting the music onto hard drive and out of sight leaves only one focus. The music itself. No distraction with pathetic artwork, or trite sleeve notes! If I want to read about the music I will pull a work of scholarly reference down from the shelf, by a great authority on the subject, not some poor music critic hack asked to write 500 words on the music for a pitiful fee.

So onto the music. How did it emerge in this brave new world of Hard drives, and Digital to Analogue Converters? ... a reduction of the inconvenience of physical discs, spun on a player, be they 78s, LPs or CDs ...

Simply there is no loss of quality in terms of timbral accuracy or involvement, even compared to m old very nice CDS2, and for a fraction of its new cost about eight years ago! If there had been some loss of involvement, then I would not bother. Just keep hammering on, but this is not the case. No quality loss, and music become the sole focus. No more messing with VTA, speed, [analogue discs], or finding CDs inserted in error on top of another in a CD case, not to be found for sixth months, coping with cracked packing, miniscule print, and annoyingly trite presentation.

So brave new world here I come! Role on taking music music on holiday [I pine like mad for it after only half a week], to from my friends to introduce them to the greats, which they are all curious to learn more about it, to a dem to audition a replacement for a worn out piece of gramophone, ...

Where is the downside? None for me, though it will eliminate the fun in tweaking Hifi, for those whose interest is Hifi not music. Ironically it is technology that allows us to focus in such undistracted fashion of the essense of the matter: The music.

I do believe this very stark removal of the ritual of playing spinning discs and wasting time admiring the almost invariably pathetic efforts at packaging and sleeve notes of LPs and CDs will prove a real challenge to the Hifi afficianado, but be entirely welcomed by the true music lover! I do not even see the problem with the youngster listening to low rate MP3 on ear-pieces with an iPod! I would rather see someone walking quietly down the street almost in another world, than see them in another world from drugs, or very much in this world being anti-social. And think of how many commuters listen this way on the train, or whatever. The replay is sufficient to the task to bring music to life in the circumstances. I am not someone who likes wall to wall music, but prefer a concentrated listening session in comfortable surroundings. Therefore a minimal Hard drive/DAC/convention replay set in a room ridded of physical reminders of the replay, much as Radio is, seems a splendid way forward in my case, as the iPod will be for many in its areas of excelence in appropriate circumstances!

Of course the LP will remain and the CD may even remain, for those, who, like veteran car enthusiasts, prefer the ritual to the result. I would rather be able to concentrate on the beauty of the journey than be worried about the hardware or even opperating it beyond the minimum of starting it off! Considering the convenience, it is pleasing how inexpensively this stark modern miracle can be obtained ...

Music is far to important to add an superfluous distractions. And those who prefer the old ways they are welcome to them! But they should refrain from false criticism of the musical quality that this approach brings. The issue is how much distraction you want from the music in opperating the old fragile, and fiddly systems. I suspect that this may actually increase my listening to recorded material compared to the Radio given the similar convienience of both arrangements.

ATB from George

PS: So the new arrangements are not so much a question of the Emperor's New Clothes, as one that makes us concentrate on the very elegance of the Emperor [ie. the Music] being presented without distraction. Good if the Emperor happens to be an Adonis! I hope he retains an appropriately placed fig leaf!

It is stark revolution which may actually get us examining the quality of the Music we are listening to, rather than how splendidly it is clothed in the distractions of the ritual of replay! A move towards honest pure musical appreciation.

[Sorry about the remaining typos in my post, above].

ATB from George

George,

Well stated, as usual for you.

Richard,

If you are enjoying your music, do not be concerned. Just enjoy the music, as George so eloquently advocates. Since you are posting here, perhaps you are looking suggestion about what you may be missing? If not, just go back to listening and read no further.

I am not at all familiar with your speakers, but the Mac / Lavry / Nait 5i should be capable of fine music reproduction. My experiences with the AE were disappointing (my AE is about 3 years old, so maybe not representative of recent models). As for me, I usually prefer the lossless formats to 128K mp3. On a few recordings the difference is not so evident, but in general the mp3's or internet radio do not have the "timing" or musical "pace" for which Naim is famous. So I am wondering what is different about your experience that you are not hearing differences which many other report.

Most likely, the settings on you Mac are not optimum for sound quality. Set the output to 44.1KHz sampling at 24 bit (in the utilities/audio-midi setup), and if you are using iTunes, set volume fixed to max, no equalizer, etc.

Possibly there are timing or pace issues with your setup. The most common source would be a "rattle-prone" support for either the equipment or the speakers. All conjecture...

Or possibly the choice of music is the cause. Which recordings did you use?


Regards,

Charlie

George,

Thanks for those kind words of encouragement. I was half expecting shouts of derision from people, possibly suggesting I leave and perhaps take up knitting or some other occupation more suited to my cloth ears. But I do agree with you, that it is all about the enjoyment we get from listening.

Charlie,

quote:

 Most likely, the settings on you Mac are not optimum for sound quality. Set the output to 44.1KHz sampling at 24 bit (in the utilities/audio-midi setup), and if you are using iTunes, set volume fixed to max, no equalizer, etc.
 

I should have mentioned that I have my Macbook set up as per the many posts here. In fact, the defaults were all exactly as recommended by others in this forum. It seems the present model is pre-set to be optimum.

I still want to do a test with a more revealing system however. Who knows, maybe my sonic acuity will improve with exposure to a really revealing system. If that were to happen, then I might start thinking along the upgrade path (again). But for the moment at least, I am more than happy with what I have.

The only thing I might try anyway, it to drop the Airport Express, place my Mac close to the Lavry enabling a short interconnect. Thus by-passing the airport Express. I am told by JN that i-View (I think) will work as an excellent remote. That appeals. But as my eyesight is not perfect, it would have to be easy to read. That is what put me off the HDX. If it had a standard sized screen, meaning laptop size, I might have been a little more inclined to investigate it.

Richard

I find 128k AAC perfectly acceptable for a casual listen and don't notice that much difference until 320k / Lossless. I've got quite a lot of obscure and chart stuff downloaded from iTunes and this is fine for the car etc. On my work iPod its lossless.

I find it varies with the type of music - compressed (as in level) chart sounds fine at 128k. Simple acoustic music doesn't and reveals all that is bad about compression.

James

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Lord:
That is what put me off the HDX. If it had a standard sized screen, meaning laptop size, I might have been a little more inclined to investigate it.

Richard

Doesn't the HDX have a vga out for a monitor?

George,

For some reason I interpreted the Emperor reference differently.

I thought he meant Richard is the Emperor and his "new clothes" are the alledged SQ improvements associated with higher bitrate/Loseless files.

Richard,
I think if you cannot discern between a FLAC and a 128 MP3, more power to you. Although I find it very hard to believe, you are in the unique position of not having to fret about the differences CDPs, DACs, codecs, bit-rate, cartridges, tonearms and power supplies.

I can choose correctly 99% of the time if given a V0 MP3 (a variable bit rate of 320 quality), and a proper FLAC. Almost every single time. And for me, even the V0s are barely listenable.

But I wouldn't mind not being able to tell. That would be very freeing.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Lord:

But as my eyesight is not perfect, it would have to be easy to read. That is what put me off the HDX. If it had a standard sized screen, meaning laptop size, I might have been a little more inclined to investigate it.

Richard

HDX has a VGA output socket on the rear which outputs 1024x768 pixel image. I have a 17" TFT monitor plugged into mine which is more than big enough to see from the other side of the room. You could feed a nice 42" plasma TV from it if you wished!

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Lord:

But as my eyesight is not perfect, it would have to be easy to read. That is what put me off the HDX. If it had a standard sized screen, meaning laptop size, I might have been a little more inclined to investigate it.

Richard

HDX has a VGA output socket on the rear which outputs 1024x768 pixel image. I have a 17" TFT monitor plugged into mine which is more than big enough to see from the other side of the room. You could feed a nice 42" plasma TV from it if you wished!

Evidently Naim's marketing boys need to clarify this point fully to the man on the street. I, too, had to 'find out' about this.

Too often, and it's going to be increasingly true in this new world of hifi-meets-IT, the designers 'assume' that we know what they know.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert bear:


Evidently Naim's marketing boys need to clarify this point fully to the man on the street. I, too, had to 'find out' about this.

??? There have been MANY threads about the HDX with commentary by Dave Dever, Adam and others from Naim. Better yet, you could either talk with your dealer or email Naim themselves.

I have ALWAYS received a prompt answer to any question I've asked.

What do you want? A press release? A billboard?

Patrick,

I think it a bit much to ask potential clients to read through pages of a forum for their answers to basic questions.

I think a fleshed out product page for the HDX would be most useful. Currently it just shows the product and talks about its capabilities with fairly plain language but so vast are the options that it could easily be confusing for the person who is less technically oriented or more visually oriented.

This is the current verbiage to let the potential user know that the visual interface can be variously accessed:

"Choose Your Interface
The HDX incorporates a front panel touch screen that offers all the control you’ll need. But perhaps you fancy controlling the HDX from the listening position. Well, connect a small display screen, or even your television, and you can operate the HDX with its remote handset. Or perhaps you want to run the HDX wirelessly from your laptop? Easy; use either the Desktop Client application or a web browser. There’s a USB touch screen option too."

I imagine a few picture diagrams showing things variously connected or even a photo of the interface on a TV or computer in the same room as the HDX.

A very new product that will require a little bit of expansion over the current approach.

The n-Vi used to have a little mini site that fleshed out its concepts and use. What happened to that?

Connon

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
Patrick,

I think it a bit much to ask potential clients to read through pages of a forum for their answers to basic questions.

Sure, thats what a good dealer is for. Right?

quote:

This is the current verbiage to let the potential user know that the visual interface can be variously accessed:

"Choose Your Interface
The HDX incorporates a front panel touch screen that offers all the control you’ll need. But perhaps you fancy controlling the HDX from the listening position. Well, connect a small display screen, or even your television, and you can operate the HDX with its remote handset. Or perhaps you want to run the HDX wirelessly from your laptop? Easy; use either the Desktop Client application or a web browser. There’s a USB touch screen option too."

Sounds pretty straight-forward to me??? What more do you want?

Of course this is going to have some kind of monitor out. What HD player doesn't?

These are quick pictures I have just taken of the haphazard setup here at Tune:

HDX2.jpg

HDX1.jpg

Or rather, here are the file titles of two pictures I have taken. Where is the "attach" clip?

Testing...

still.. Maybe a "how to post your pictures" entry in the FAQ would be useful (for me). Adam?

The photo above (looking quite like a question mark in a little blue box) has a URL for the picture to my apple mobile me account. What more does it want from me? What More!!?

quote:

Where is the "attach" clip?

For some reason the Attach File option is not available in this forum as it is in all the others.

I posted something along those lines a couple of weeks back but it just died a death....

Jim

Guys,

Try copying the image location url.

Open the "image url" tab in you reply (second tab from right). Paste in the image url, then click OK.

The image should then transfer to your reply when you click "Post Now".

Steve

Thanks Steve,

Did that. Produced a white ? in a blue box.

Apparently someone in charge thinks pictures related to Distributed Audio are nasty nasty nasty. I would have to agree. But I still like to look.

This is guaranteed to improve any audio.

Cripes you are right. Some crude censorship indeed, that was an album cover.

Steve

quote:

"Choose Your Interface
The HDX incorporates a front panel touch screen that offers all the control you’ll need. But perhaps you fancy controlling the HDX from the listening position. Well, connect a small display screen, or even your television, and you can operate the HDX with its remote handset. Or perhaps you want to run the HDX wirelessly from your laptop? Easy; use either the Desktop Client application or a web browser. There’s a USB touch screen option too."

So let me get this straight...... I can bolt a bigger screen onto an HDX, and I can operate it remotely from the listening position, or I could operate it from a laptop...... hmmmmmmm.

Makes sense to me, who needs a MAC solution ?

Some one who wants all the quality, needs a new computer, an cannot afford the price of a one box solutiom ...

The whole issue is moving on ...

George

I really must get my tongue facing forward more, I'm starting to believe my own BS

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Lord:

But as my eyesight is not perfect, it would have to be easy to read. That is what put me off the HDX. If it had a standard sized screen, meaning laptop size, I might have been a little more inclined to investigate it.

Richard

HDX has a VGA output socket on the rear which outputs 1024x768 pixel image. I have a 17" TFT monitor plugged into mine which is more than big enough to see from the other side of the room. You could feed a nice 42" plasma TV from it if you wished!

I should have been a little more clear in my original post. Yes, I am aware the HDX outputs to an external display/TV. But for some reason I cannot explain, I prefer the intimacy of the laptop. Silly really, because my 50 inch plasma would make it easy to read. Maybe I will change my mind about this.

But I am tapping out this reply in this thread on the same Macbook and at the same time as I am listening to some old stuff.

I love Naim kit, but I also like the simplicity of a laptop for both music and a quick Web browse.

I should relax in my cloth eared deafness, but it annoys the Hell out of me. I really wish I could distinguish these differences. I have a suspicion that it was the reason for my temporary loss of interest.

But thank you all for not making fun of me. JN knows I was considering making this post and knew of my fear of being shouted off the forum.

Nice people, Naim people.

Richard

Glad you seem to be sorted Richard.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Lord:
I love Naim kit, but I also like the simplicity of a laptop for both music and a quick Web browse.

I should relax in my cloth eared deafness, but it annoys the Hell out of me. I really wish I could distinguish these differences. I have a suspicion that it was the reason for my temporary loss of interest.

I think there's a change coming, 3 months ago I wouldn't hav eentertained the idea of using my computer as a source component. In fact, in a sense, it isn't it's the storage medium for the music I want to listen to. Of course there's the fact that it converts the files on the hard drives to a digital stream, then the conversion to a RF stream, then the airport express that takes the RF stream and remodulates it to a digital stream, and, finally the DAC that get's it all back to analogue for the preamp.

Afterall that, you'd think it sounds barely listenable ? Well, err, no. It's easily on a par with a CDX/XPS/Hiline. If anything I'm inclinded to think that it's the Hiline that might just give the nod to the CD player!

I've heard neither the Linn music servers nor the HDX, but something is telling me that Naim might have missed a niche. OTOH, whilst I think that 400Gb of disc stoarge is not enough, there's no need to actually use it either.

The Linn approach strikes me as the more open ended.

cheers

Peter