BBC4 - Fri 2 Jan 2009; Prog @ the BBC & Prog Rock Brittania

ROTF.
I am totally in agreement about the two night's shows. Saturday night's 'Time-Shift' programme was a bunch of clichés, with a dreadful Tommy Vance advert voice over on top.

I love John Peel, but when punk came along he denied all that he had been promoting for the previous few years, although in his book he is more open to the music from before 1976.

Looking back it seems to me that prog was music aimed mostly at middle class males, but I find nothing wrong with that. Were music only made for middle class males, the there would be a problem, but it was not so.

I suspect that there was at the time a lack of music for working class youth, and punk filled that void. A few people who had previously liked prog, liked punk, but a lot did not. Punk did fill a void in music, but the idea that it swept away other forms of music I have always felt was something of a lie.

Yes had their biggest selling album of the 70s in 1977 with 'Going for the One', and other bands continued to make and sell albums in the same quantities as before.

I am not saying that the music of prog, or punk is solely for a specific class, but the majority of the audiences for each type of music would seem to fall into class groups, in the U.K. anyway. I also suspect that for many, Charles Shar-Murray for instance, punk offered a badge of anti establishment respectability.

I do think that punk offered more for the music journalists to write about, especially with the cross over with both politics and fashion. Far easier to write about than with prog, essentially being about the musicianship and more abstract lyrical ideas. I think that perhaps more than the slogans of punk lead to the decline of prog, as it became isolated from the press and publicity.

I also think that a lot of the bands started to run out of ideas, or like jazz before it, the great players split off from their bands, to form their own projects and the creative fusion of ideas was diluted.

Still nice to see that thirty years later, prog does not seem to be the dirty word it was for the last couple of decades.

Punk was so much easier for the Sun to write than Progressive Rock. Punk was also very easy for them to explain.

I think there is still a "What happened to Prog" documentary worth making, wrt to new bands and what the "old" prog guys are doing now.

With me and a lot of people I guess, Prog never left. Other music styles has been embraced or rejected. My Prog catalogue has expanded in number of discs and groups covered.

Jamie, Howard

I agree with you both. There is a lot of punk rock that I like, but I like it as well as rather than instead of other genres. Indeed many punk groups did progress.

It wasn't all bad, of course, as it did suddenly increase the value of my old Velvet Underground elpees, which are still in great condition as I don't play them very often (liked them in the late 60s, early 70s, but they dated very quickly IMHO).

The downside for me about punk was it became about fashion and people jumping up and down rather than sitting quietly listening to music. It was as if the punk movement, largely a concept created by the press and exploited by Malcolm Maclaren, had to try and make a statement. I don't think there is any great virtue in not being able to play properly; though I don't think you have to be a virtuoso to come up with a good tune. To me Malcolm Maclaren seemed as middle-class and yet out of touch as one can get - the man was a walking cliché.

I'm still wondering if I was that middle-class twerp that John Peel reference in his comments; I'd like to think I was because being remembered by the great man would be superb.

Moreover, weren't the Clash and Stranglers just prog-rock groups in disguise. Have you ever noticed that the Television Personalities did sound a bit like the Strawberry Alarm Clock at times: I wonder if they were fans.

Still got to go and hang another Roger Dean poster on the wall.

ATB Rotf

quote:

what the "old" prog guys are doing now.

Some are still making excellent records

I enjoyed much of Auntie's prog season, and some of the comments here have been interesting.

Personally, I think much of prog - especially the music of ELP, Yes and Genesis - was appalling. ELP are particularly awful - vacuous in the extreme, a real triumph of style (or empty technique) over substance. Technocrats with nothing to say. Sure, Emerson can play fast and flash, but so what?

I don't think punk killed off prog, I think it had simply run its course. After '77 ELP were in commercial decline anyway, Genesis (and to a degree Yes) went poppier to maintain their status; only the Floyd carried on ploughing their furrow and still managed to be the biggest rock band in the world after Led Zep. I believe that if punk was a reaction against anything, it was against the enfeebled decadence of West Coast hacks like the Eagles. I think you'd find plenty of old punks who'd admit to a sneaking regard for VDDG, the Softs, the Floyd or even Keith Emerson, but none who said they liked the Eagles, Bread or "Rumours"-era Fleetwood Mac!

The 1970s were dark days, and many young people (as I was then ), even grammar school boys such as myself, wanted music that said something - and stuff about Tolkein, or battleships confiding in Jon Anderson, didn't really cut the mustard. The only one of the mainstream prog groups whose music hasn't dated is the Floyd - their music was actually "about" something; and, although (Gilmour aside) they didn't have the chops of Howe, Emerson or Banks, they did have the tunes.

And to say the press "created" punk is completely incorrect - the music press was fairly slow to pick up on it. Sounds was first off the mark, then the NME, with Melody Maker and Record Mirror lagging far behind - and even when the inkies did start writing about punk, there was no unanimity about it - although the NME did start to adopt a bit of a "year zero" policy early in '77. And the mainstream media didn't pick up on punk until the Grundy "swearing on teamtime TV" incident in December '76, by which time the Pistols had been playing for about 15 months, and all the major punk groups - Clash, Buzzcocks, Banshees, Slits, Damned etc - had already started to garner reputations for themselves.

None of this to say that prog, and the desire to push the musical envelope that was part of its raison d'etre was a waste of time - King Crimson, VDDG, Egg, the Floyd and many bands from the Continent created some stunning music. But so did the Sex Pistols, Siouxsie & The Banshees and the Buzzcocks. And don't forget, the greatest band to emerge in the 1970s came out of the punk explosion. They were called Joy Division.

Finally - another important point. Never believe anything Talcy Malcy McLaren says about anything. Ever.

quote:

I believe that if punk was a reaction against anything, it was against the enfeebled decadence of West Coast hacks like the Eagles.

That's exactly what I thought - I can't abide the Eagles or what became of the once great Fleetwood Mac after Danny Kerwin left - everything's AOR. Is there a more dreary elpee than Rumours - probably somewhere, I'm just glad I've never had to listen to it.

quote:

The 1970s were dark days, and many young people (as I was then), even grammar school boys such as myself, wanted music that said something

That's the last thing I wanted. I wanted escapism; I like songs about Gnomes, Scarecrows, and Goblins. Music that tries to say something - no thanks: sounds depressing to me.

quote:

Joy Division.

Didn't they morph into that most tedious of 80s bands: New Order - now they really were appalling. Joy Division were OK - I use some of their oven gloves.

That said I really liked the Clash, Desperate Bicycles, Television Personalities and Ed Banger and the Nosebleeds and what about The Flying Lizards or The Radio Stars (anybody remember the superb There are no Russians in Russia).

Only goes to show how different people's taste in music can be. Emo is a hero and surely you must agree that Tarkus and Brain Salad Surgery are among the best records ever made - don't know how anybody could describe ELP as awful: they were totally unique. It was music to entertain rather than shock, which is what I felt some, not all, of punk was. To me, music designed to shock is of zero interest, it has no raison d'etre and, of course, it is simply part of the commercial machine.

I think it all comes down to we like what we like and no debate is going change anybody's mind on anything really.

Still very interested to read your views - some of which concur with my own and some of which are refreshingly different.

And it's welcome back my friend to the show that never ends
- ATB Rotf

I've just done my own time shift and have watched these 2 programs this evening. Timeshift was poor and had little to say but nice to see John Peel.

I have no prog album in my collection ( if we exclude Floyd) and to be brutally frank I won't be rushing out to add too many after this program. The only music that caught my ear was Crimson which I must dip my toes in to sometime.


Is it possible to like The Undertones and Yes?



SJB

quote:

Is it possible to like The Undertones and Yes?

Indeed it is or maybe I'm just weird.

Some of the best musician I have ever seen live were Planxty - perhaps the BBC has a Planxty concert it could show instead of yet another PF or ELP documentary.

A very good introduction to KC is the album called The Young Person's Guide To King Crimson - it has all the hits.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
... don't know how anybody could describe ELP as awful
- ATB Rotf

I can and have done on many occasions. Tarkus is the only album I thought was so bad I took it back to the record shop and demanded my money back. And got it as the guy in the shop agreed! In my opinion they were the worst, most pretentious, most musically empty band from that or any other period. No offence.

As you said, it just shows how different folk's taste in music can be.

ELP have never done anything for me whatsoever - absolute zero.

Heathens!!

I like The Stranglers and The Clash as well as a lot of prog fare.

I caught a bit of the Genesis Rome programme last night, and I thought they were just going through the motions - really boring, and I normally like Genesis (not all incarnations). I dipped into the Collins interview later, and that was even more boring. I found the continuous references to his upbringing in a Hounslow terraced house a real turn-off. Who cares?
By comparison, I found Rick Wakeman's and Bill Bruford's comments in Friday's programmes much more entertaining/interesting.
Did anyone see Wakeman on Celebrity Mastermind? I nearly pissed myself when he interrupted Ian Lavender's introduction - great sense of humour.

I like the Undertones and Yes. But ELP are completely overblown and overrated in my book FWIW (IMHO of course)
Cheers
John

Oh and while I'm at it, why no mention of Camel? Shurely shome mishtake?

quote:

I found the continuous references to his upbringing in a Hounslow terraced house a real turn-off. Who cares?

I knew we were so different , having been brought up in a detached house in Hounslow.

<Yorkshire accent> I remember when I were a lad....</Yorkshire accent>

I watched the programme on TV via my Panasonic Freeview DVD-Rec with the sound fed via my Naim setup. For me the sound quality was disappointing with a dull and constrained sound overall. Certainly nothing like as good as Freeview is capable of, particularly in comparison with Glastonbury footage from 2007 & 2008.

Some varied and interesting comments -

quote:

Personally, I think much of prog - especially the music of ELP, Yes and Genesis - was appalling. ELP are particularly awful - vacuous in the extreme, a real triumph of style (or empty technique) over substance. Technocrats with nothing to say.

Which is fair enough as music always divides and gives different opinion - FWIW I part find ELP somewhat trying (as in listening to for extend periods) but I wouldn't go as far as to say they're 'particularly awful' or have 'empty technique'

However , from the same post :

quote:

None of this to say that prog, and the desire to push the musical envelope that was part of its raison d'etre was a waste of time - King Crimson, VDDG, Egg, the Floyd and many bands from the Continent created some stunning music. But so did the Sex Pistols, Siouxsie & The Banshees

So if I've understood this correct - The Sex Pistols and Siouxsie & The Banshees have created some 'stunning music' but Yes & Genesis (and much of prog) was 'appalling' ...



Don't get me wrong , I like a bit of New Wave & Alternative as much as the next person - I'm going to see The Buzzcocks again later this month which is some 30 years after I first saw them as an 18 year old at The De-Montfort Hall in Leicester - the support act was some little known group at the time called Joy Division.

Joy Division went on to produce 2 fantastic albums (although if you'd seen them at the time you'd have wondered how ?) so yes I rate them as an excellent group - a fair bit of what came after 'punk' finally found its feet & identity and threw up some good groups but to suggest that The Sex Pistols created some 'stunning music' is to say the least stretching the imagination a bit too far (IMO of course)

Unlike my old schoolfriend Nicholson who was besotted, growing up in the '70s I was never the greatest Genesis fan, though did go to see them live, and the 'live show experience' really was an experience.

I also don't particularly like the post-punk post-progressive phase, though it has to be said that - unlike so many prog groups - they adapted and survived. And with the benefit of hindsight, post-punk post-progressive phase Genesis is not quite the same beast as the parallel 'yet another PC divorce song'.

Apart from the 'modern' bits when I went to make a cuppa, I have to say I really enjoyed much of the Genesis Rome concert, and did not feel they were 'going through the motions' (which they certainly were at, say, the Concert for Diana).

In the 'classic' numbers certainly, they were as animated as I remember seeing them in the late '70s, and PC certainly was working up a sweat (would most people aged around the 55-60 mark do as well?).

In fact, I found MR's contented smile during the performance of the Cage-to-Afterglow and Los Endos sections, and the looks between the musicians, to be quite moving really (a bit like PF at Live 8).

I am glad that their final gig took place in Rome, amongst a people who are characteristically less sneery than we Brits frequently are, and so simply enjoyed the gig for what it was.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
.....I was never the greatest Genesis fan, though did go to see them live, and the 'live show experience' really was an experience.

Genesis's live shows were always an experience - I am still trying to think exactly how many times I've seen them, from early PG days, Hackett, Bruford, through two Knebworths, and they were never less than superb events in all cases. Which I guess is why I was a bit disappointed with the Rome presentation. In the 'old days' I would certainly not have gone and made a cup of tea during the programme.
But I agree that the Italian crowd (how many?) were certainly enjoying it, and it was great to see so many kids had been taken along for the experience - I would like to think it created a few pockets of magic that will trigger a long-term interest in music as they get older

quote:

Phil Collins closes down 13/12/2008 18:48 - (News 24)

Collins's official site has experienced a massive decline in visitors, prompting his management to merge his site with Genesis'. The site's webmaster wrote: I have been asked by Phil's management to let all forum members know that they plan to close down both the Phil Collins website and the forum at a date in the near future yet to be determined. Activity on the website and, more recently, on the forum has been in steady decline over the past couple of years and it has been decided that there is little point in having a Phil Collins web site.

I only caught a brief moment of his interview - heard him say he didn't particularly like Norfolk - no idea why he said this: always thought it was pretty nice place myself.

In contrast Peter Gabriel's site is going strong and I've never heard him say a bad word about Norfolk (or Suffolk).

You wont be sending a condolence card then?



SJB

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
heard him say he didn't particularly like Norfolk - no idea why he said this: always thought it was pretty nice place myself.

Phil has a holiday home in the coastal Norfolk village of Dersingham. Maybe the locals have peed him off.

I enjoyed the Genesis concert from Roma, the 500,000 people in the Circus Maximus seemed to be too.

quote:

Originally posted by saxondale:
but to suggest that The Sex Pistols created some 'stunning music' is to say the least stretching the imagination a bit too far (IMO of course)

"Bodies" is probably the greatest Rock and Roll record, ever.

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
heard him say he didn't particularly like Norfolk - no idea why he said this: always thought it was pretty nice place myself.

Phil has a holiday home in the coastal Norfolk village of Dersingham. Maybe the locals have peed him off.

He may be rich beyond all reason, but PC is most certainly not posh enough for Dersingham!!!