a slightly confused newcomer...

Katherine,
Welcome to the forum. Your system shouldn't be causing you that sort of problem, so something is clearly wrong somewhere.
four questions for you -
What sort of equipment rack are you using?
Was the sistem set up for you by your dealer?
Are you using the Naim NACA5 speaker cable or something else?
Have you previously used the Proacs with another sistem? and if so how were they with that?

The Nait5 should be quite capable of coping with a 22x15 room providing the speakers and setup are correct.

David

Hi everyone, thanks for the nice responses. I actually brought my ProAc Tablette 8 Ref Signature to the dealer's for the Nait5/CD5 audition. Hope this clarifies my situation and addresses some of the questions raised.

At the dealer's:
The demo room measured ~14' x 11', w/ the ProAc's placed on Foundation II stands ~2-3' from the back wall, slightly toed in. The demo room was obviously acoustically treated but I did not note the details during the audition.

Perhaps the volume was turned up too loudly, but when I go to concerts or clubs, I never had problems w/ loud sound.

My ProAc's are 6 mths old and not completely run in, to be honest, and I don't know if this could be the main cause of the "fatigue" I experienced.

Also, I don't know if the Nait5/CD5 requires a long time to warm up, it was pretty much "connect and go" when I auditioned it. Time spent auditioning = ~25min.

At home:
These ProAc's have been partnering a 14+ yrs old Musical Fidelity A1 amp and Mission 7000 CD player, which sounded musical, but lacks dynamics and detail to me. I intend to replace both the amp and CD at some point, but since the A1 had a couple of repairs recently, this replacment process may be accelerated somewhat. I don't experience fatigue when listening at home, perhaps due to the old age of my setup. I listen to a bit of everything: classical (piano, violin, orchestra), jazz, trip hop, pop, vocal...

I was a bit afraid of auditionoing the 112/150 actually, because I could be spending more than I should/could if I liked it. I hope to be more informed about the capabilities/limitations of Nait5/CD5, so that I am more properly prepared when I go for further audtioning.

Thanks again for any valuable input.

Katherine

I went from an A1/Heybrook HB1 to a 62/140/HB1 system and it took about 2 seconds to decide I liked the Naim MUCH better than the A1 - and about 20 seconds to realize my first impression would be a long-lasting one. And I really liked the A1 compared to everything else in its price class when I bought it.

Do you have an idea of the source of your discomfort? Personally, I'm sensitive to what I think of a CD 'hash', a grating quality in the treble. The CD5 is pretty good in that regard, but not perfect.

I'm also sensitive to congestion and dynamic compression. It took a 250 to bring 'total' satisfaction in my 16 X 29 room.

With Naim, I suggest you listen to a CD5/Nait5 with a Flatcap2 attached. The FC2 may solve the problem for you. If it doesn't, then you may need to move up the Naim line or check out Exposure, Mission, etc.

I'd upgrade the PSU before upgrading the electronics - you've got to hear it for yourself, but a PSU upgrade is like a combined preamp and amp upgrade. In fact, I think a PSU is the best first upgrade for any Naim preamp or amp, if your goal is to maximize performance.

I'm very sensitive to CDs; the lowest cost CDP that I actually enjoy listening to is the CDS; I'm happy to give up detail and PR&T to avoid the dreaded 'hash'. The CD5/FC2 was one of the few CDPs below the CDS in cost that actually moved me musically, but the CD5 alone grated a bit IMO.

Among the CDPs I could tolerate were the low priced NAD and the upper end of the Sony ES line, and I remember liking your Mission. If you want smoothness in a CDP, you've got a difficult hunt.

It's hard to fault the CD5, except that it doesn't have a phono stage and its power is limited.

Alternatively, do you see yourself haunting used LP stores? If so, LPs are way less fatiguing than CDs, and something like a Rega P2 or P3 will cost less than a CD5 and give way more pleasure.

Best of luck.

Phil

[This message was edited by Phil Barry on SATURDAY 14 June 2003 at 13:38.]

Katherine

You mentioned a future plan to consider less efficient speakers. If you do they will be harder to drive.

On that basis though it costs more the 112/150 is more flexible. Not only will you get more watts up front but since the pre and power amps are seperated you could "upgrade" your power amp without having to change pre-amp at the same time which gives you more "stages" along the upgrade road.

I talk about the upgrade road because even if you deny it now be warned just like everybody else here you will fall into that trap in the future.

Good Luck

regards GEOFFP

Hi
I autitioned the cd5/nait5 and cd5.112/150 and yes the pre/pwr combo was better, but not to the extent of the £600 of difference, so I had the cd5/nait5, but in the long term I found it quite hard to listen to for long periods.

I added a fc2 which was a marvellous improvement but didn't cure the long term listening fatigue, so I did more auditioning and ended up with a change of amp to the sugden A21, which has me listening for longer periods, thats not to say the nait5 is a bad amp, its not[probably the best integrated under £1000], but can sound in you face and hard.

Maybe its worth keeping your A1 and trying that with the cd5 to begin with.

Katherine,

this is perhaps a weird and heretic question, but what made you decide to go for Naim? Have you been listening to and liking Naim stuff before this point? I'm asking because your remarks under the first point - engaging but fatiguing - may be just the two sides of the "you're with the music" quality Naim aims for.

Mosts responses you have been getting work on the premiss there was something wrong with the particular sistem you were demoing. It's possible. But it's also the stock response of the true afficionado. I think you should think Yess! at first blush when being introduced to Naim; that's what I did. Later one finds one felt this good about something that could be much better, by the tweak and upgrade route.

It's just a thought, but should it be the case you have never heard a Naim sistem you had this visceral response to, I'm wondering whether you shouldn't try Linn or Spectral or whatever, to see if that is more to your taste.

Herman

quote:

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But it's also the stock response of the true afficionado. I think you should think Yess! at first blush when being introduced to Naim;

---

Herm, you make a great point, I agree with you but I am not convinced it will allways be that simple. Or are you trying to be provocative (Spectral is not really relevant to this discussion is it?).

For me it was a no-brainer too, at home with P3 Planet and MS10s, playing record after record and disc after disc through the night. But would it be so clear cut at a dealer with Sonus Faber and an Ah! Tjube CD player with only Jazz at the Pawnshop available for example?

Katherine,
Your reply suggests to me that the demo may not have been conducted under optimal conditions. You really need to give your self a couple of good sessions of at least 2 hours duration, with music you know and with some dealer suggested CDs.

Hopefully your dealer leaves his kit powered up all the time, if not it needs at least 2 hours to stabilise the system before a dem. You didn't mention the speaker cable, if you were using your own cable this could be where the problem lies.

Get him to connect the system up with NACA5. This small change could make all the difference. If A5 doesn't work with the Proacs (not all speakers are happy with it) try some different cables. Also ask him to suggest another speaker to dem against the Proacs to see if they're the problem.

I use a CD3.5/Nait3 which by reputation, is more in your face than the 5 series. I added a HiCap to the CD3.5, since which time I've never suffered CD hash or grittiness except on a very few poorly recorded CDs. Pre-HiCap it could get a bit fatiguing, but no problems since.

The FlatCap2 is an excellent upgrade as it's a dual PSU and can power both the CD5 and The Nait. I would expect the CD5, Nait5 and FC2 to musically out-perform a CD5, 112/150 combo. If this doesn't work for you maybe you would prefer the more laidback presentation of something like Linn.

David

quote:

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Originally posted by Omakase:
Hi everyone, thanks for the nice responses. I actually brought my ProAc Tablette 8 Ref Signature to the dealer's for the Nait5/CD5 audition. Hope this clarifies my situation and addresses some of the questions raised.

_At the dealer's_:
The demo room measured ~14' x 11', w/ the ProAc's placed on Foundation II stands ~2-3' from the back wall, slightly toed in. The demo room was obviously acoustically treated but I did not note the details during the audition.

Perhaps the volume was turned up too loudly, but when I go to concerts or clubs, I never had problems w/ loud sound.

My ProAc's are 6 mths old and not completely run in, to be honest, and I don't know if this could be the main cause of the "fatigue" I experienced.

Also, I don't know if the Nait5/CD5 requires a long time to warm up, it was pretty much "connect and go" when I auditioned it. Time spent auditioning = ~25min.

_At home_:
These ProAc's have been partnering a 14+ yrs old Musical Fidelity A1 amp and Mission 7000 CD player, which sounded musical, but lacks dynamics and detail to me. I intend to replace both the amp and CD at some point, but since the A1 had a couple of repairs recently, this replacment process may be accelerated somewhat. I don't experience fatigue when listening at home, perhaps due to the old age of my setup. I listen to a bit of everything: classical (piano, violin, orchestra), jazz, trip hop, pop, vocal...

I was a bit afraid of auditionoing the 112/150 actually, because I could be spending more than I should/could if I liked it. I hope to be more informed about the capabilities/limitations of Nait5/CD5, so that I am more properly prepared when I go for further audtioning.

Thanks again for any valuable input.

Katherine

---

Katherine

Try the B&W 805 speakers, the Nautilus (current model) or look for the Matrix model (discontinued). You may like them. It is the speakers not the electronics.

Hi thanks all again for coming to my cry for help! Many useful comments noted.

Hmm...let's dissect further: I had not been exposed to Naim (as well as MANY other brands) b4 in person. The recent demise of my amp has prompted me to get acquainted with a few short-listed candidates, incl Quad, Primare, Accuphase, Gryphon, PS Audio and Naim of course. Prices differ obviously, but none were atrociosuly expensive systems.

Confusion 1: figuring out "my sound". I know what I dislike in my current system, but what else do I like? What do the different styles out there sound like actually? I also want to identify my perception of differences bw say, a USD 3000 system vs. a USD 5000 one. This contributes partly to my budget decision process.

Confusion 2: hi-fi vs. music, a major crossroads in my young journey into the audiophile world. Omitting the boring internal debates, I believe now that I'm a more of a music and bit of a hi-fi person. Soundstaging etc. are still good things to me, but the feeling of music comes first.

So Naim sounds like a good fit for me in theory, and I did like it very quickly, but maybe due to my inexperience and the fatigue I felt, it wasn't a "yessss" immediately, as Herm suggested. I think I have found some possible explanations from Naim experts here, and would keep the suggestions in mind when I go audition Naim again. It's still pretty much at the top of my list for an amp/cd player upgrade.

Katherine

Oh, I forgot to mention that I didn't know what speaker cable was used.

Needs more warm up for sure.

I don't even listen until about 20 minutes. If the equipment was on and is broken inat about 20 minutes it gets a lot nicer. It looses an edgeiness and gets much more open. I don't try to fight it any more I just except it.\

Ken

quote:

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Originally posted by Omakase:
maybe due to my inexperience and the fatigue I felt, it wasn't a "yessss" immediately

---

But did you like the Naim better than the other brands? How did you like the Accuphase, if I may ask? You could also mix, perhaps. You could take the Naim CD5 + PSU and another kind of amp, and have the best of both worlds. There's no need to adhere to some kind of orthodoxy if it doesn't click for you.

Herman

Hi Herman,

Despite the fatigue, Naim was the ONLY brand I heard so far that connected the music with me. This is why I actually liked it better than all the other brands I tried. Hence so many questions asked here...

Accuphase (E407 amp, DP55v CD, Tannoy or ATC spkrs) sounded elegant and was easy to listen to. There was no fatigue, but it lacks that feeling, "umph" and sense of involvement compared with Naim. Nice stuff, but not my cup of tea. In case you are interested, I found Primare (A30 amp and CD w/ Proac) crisp and clean but was also fatiguing.

My inclination now is to call up the dealer next week and arrange an audition based on suggestions made here. I will indeed try to be open-minded about gear combinations. Actually I'm quite enjoying this process because it allows me to find out a little bit more about myself from my hi-fi/music preferences.

Katherine

Katherine,

Is your bedroom space pretty empty? If yes, my suggestion is to perhaps put some soft furnishing like sofa, cuhions or maybe even bookshelves filled with lots of books around the side wall of your listening area. This will help cut down some echoes and reflections in the room.

The other thing you could try is to place your speakers slightly off-axis ie. place them straight without toe-in so that you hear less of direct sound.

I have done these in my room and it certainly helped a lot and allowed me to listen at louder volumes.

leeto.

quote:

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For me it was a no-brainer too, at home with P3 Planet and MS10s, playing record after record and disc after disc through the night. But would it be so clear cut at a dealer with Sonus Faber and an Ah! Tjube CD player with only Jazz at the Pawnshop available for example?

---

Intersting comment JeremyB. Local to me is a shop called "De HiFi Winkel" who are the originators of the Ah!Tube CD Player and heavily into Sonus Faber aswell. They also have a serious amount of KRELL and MARK LEVINSON for the rich guys.

I have an AH! Tube with the latest additional 96/124 upsampler which does duty as a "bedroom" system. It ain't half bad! The sound is sweet but very much alive to the beat. Of course it does'nt stand up against my CDX2 but for the bucks it is a pretty good choice as a CD compared with others at the same price point, in my opinion

regards GEOFFP

Katherine

To add my comments, having recently auditioned and finally bought a similar set-up to what you are considering.

I too noticed the harshness that made listening fatiguing, I have since discovered that this was due to a bad dem from the dealer. The volume was way too high and the poor Nait was struggling. At the volumes I listen to at home I quite happily (OK, very, very happily ) listen to music all night after work. My final choice of speaker also made a difference, room/speaker interaction is a big part of the enjoyment equation.

I agree with Naim not being a "Yes" moment on its own. However in direct comparison to other brands at a similar price point I found it to be "I like that much better"

Up through the price points was equally interesting. By choice I would have ended up with CD5, Flatcap2, NAC112, NAP150. By budget, dealer special offer, and my own value for money choices I purchased a Nait5 instead of the 112/150.

For now I imagine a Nait5 will be fine for your bedroom space (I don't know how hard your speakers are to drive). Remember you can use the Nait as a preamp and add a 150 (or higher) in the future if you do need more power. Beware that this would probably bring on the dreaded 'upgraditis' bug though

And as a final thought: One of the reasons I finally bought Naim? The sometimes strange, but always very helpful, people who contribute to this forum!

Seth
Is Naim the only way forward?
Ahh, Ahh! I'm burning!!