IRA justice ?!?

Deane

Why the surprise, it is nothing new.

Mick

Mick

You have a point.

My surprise is probably that the people who head the IRA are so disconnected from reality that they considered for even a moment that the family would be happy with murder-for-murder - and taking the IRA's word that those killed were the perpetrators.

Deane

Deane,
It's a very complecated issue all round, that I'm sure we will never know,even part of the truth, about what has been going on all these years, corruption and lies by all parties including our own sucsessive goverments included. But at the end of the day,one must remember that most people/members are just meer pawns to these organisations.It wouldn't be the first time that people have been sacrificed, for as they see it,for the benefit of the organisation/political gain. There is also a slight irony here though, and that is that the Mccartney family were allegedly,[ because you can't beleive half of what you hear/read about what has gone on in Northern Ireland over the years]supporters of sinn fein and or the IRA whilst not condoning murder orso called punishment beatings in any shape or form, and by any of the three main parties involved, it also makes you wonder, if the murder was that of a protestant would the McCartney family have been spending so much time and effort protesting against it,or the IRA trying to appease.One last point, you must always remember that not just one of the three main protaganists have the complete franchise on thugs and morons or the sacrifice of the innocent.
oldie.

Curiously ambivalent use of language. They (IRA) are reported to have said 'shoot' rather than 'kill', suggesting that perhaps a gentle kneecapping would be in order. Which would have been OK, obviously.

I am not at all surprised that these things go on, however I am amazed at the unbelievable timing of this tremendous pr. gaff.
How any one with any scrap of sense could have thought that this was a good idea beats me.

Unfortunately people have to talk to these thugs, negotiate and compromise for the sake of the peace in Ireland. It is difficult enough to put the violent past behind and try to move on without outrageous suggestions like this being made,
John.

I'd never condone State sponsored murder but, in this case, I'd make an exception. The security services know to the last man who the bastards behind the IRA are, so why not let the SAS take out every one of them tomorrow night . Maybe even start off with a daylight hit, pour encorager les autres, on Adams

Graham,
Unfortunately they did try afew years ago
it was called "Bloody Sunday",But as usual our lot shot and killed innocent people, a massive white wash entailed that some of it is only now, just beginning to be made public. Funny how somethings never change [behavior of "some" troops in Iraq springs to mindand cover up the ensued]
But also please remember,no matter how distastful it may be but, politically and historically, and no doupt it is still just as relevant today, that yesterdays terriorist becomes todays allies.
oldie.

Shooting a democratically elected politician, no matter how distasteful one might find his politics, doesn't strike me as reflecting very well on the state really...

This apparently casual offer from the IRA to kill some more people does highlight how stunningly out of touch with the public they have become. But it also indicates that this is a pivotal phase for Irish nationalism.

While Adams tries to nudge and persuade and cajole the republican movement further and further towards a non-violent, political future, the IRA finds itself being pulled in various directions by its members. Some clearly supporting the 10 year ceasefire and looking forward to the disbanding of the military wing, others remaining suspicious of both the British and of Adams, others reluctant to give up the power and the criminal activities that they have for years persued.

The indicisiveness of the organisation’s response to McCartney’s murder is symptomatic of the turmoil the republican movement is going through. In the not so distant past, this type of killing would not have been questioned, but now, there is open dissent among the nationalist population. Hopefully this will send a strong signal to the IRA that this is the direction that the nationalist want to take.

Adams remains exposed to the actions of the IRA itself, and has to walk an incredibly fine line between alienating hard-core IRA activists and taking the political process forward. With this public offer to kill McCartney’s murderers, the IRA is making a statement that they are still in charge, and will take any action they see fit, to police their own organisation.

It’s difficult not to expect another couple of corpses turning up in the near future if this doesn’t resolve itself quickly.

BOR

quote:

Originally posted by Reginald Halliday:
Curiously ambivalent use of language. They (IRA) are reported to have said 'shoot' rather than 'kill', suggesting that perhaps a gentle kneecapping would be in order. Which would have been OK, obviously.

A friend of mine moved to NI last year from Brighton; wife's family etc.
He has learned that kneecapping takes two forms; a warning is to shoot from the front, a serious punishment is to shoot from the back.
Nice people.
After many years of pondering the NI issue, I have to admit defeat. After the St Mary's school episode, they can all go to hell. If the community truly rejected their differences, the situation and the politicians would change for the better, but it's ingrained. Their minds are poisoned. There comes a time when you become so disillusioned that you give in. Well....I'm there.

I would agree with most of whats been said so far, especially with Brian. It is a incredible complex issue that has been going on in one form or another for decades and as Rasher said the problem is ingrained,but in allTHREE PROTAGONISTS and just in case we convenantly forget , the British Goverment is somewhat involled as well and not as just a innocent party. One of ,if not the only solution in my opinion, and at the risk of enraging quite a few people, is the one solution that sucsessive British Goverments have always advocated in other scenarios,it is one of a Unnited Country, and IMOHO It must come eventually, If one was to equate the total cost of enforcing the status quo over the last 40 years including all of the damage to property by "ALL" partys the British Goverment could afford to offer to all that required it a move to the British Main Land with a massive compensation plan for doing so and even free houseing for the upheavel. Those that wished to stay in the northern part of Ireland would do so under a democratic rule by the Goverment of [All] Ireland.
It would not be ,by any means the first time that this kind of policy has been carried out, but it would be the first time so near to home so to speak.Over the years "WE" sometimes with the help of others ,but not that often have ,dispite protestations from the indigenous people moved and rearranged boundrys, altered and defined Countrys.A couple that come to mind that come to mind, where people have been allowed to move here to sort out problems between the indigenous people and those that we "parachuted" in recent years are Rhodesia, Uganda. Countrys that we have had part in creating or erdefining are the former Yugoslavia,Israel and I believe that even Russia was given the nod after the last World War to axe certain boundrys it required
oldie.

quote:

Originally posted by oldie:

If one was to equate the total cost of enforcing the status quo over the last 40 years including all of the damage to property by "ALL" partys the British Goverment could afford to offer to all that required it a move to the British Main Land with a massive compensation plan for doing so and even free houseing for the upheavel. Those that wished to stay in the northern part of Ireland would do so under a democratic rule by the Goverment of [All] Ireland.

Oldie

A cost benefit analysis doesn't justify what you're suggesting. A "like it or live elsewhere" solution does not recognise the intricate webs that exist in every society - some of which must be torn if people are suddenly lifted from their land. I think the resulting resentments would create just as many problems.

Deane

Deane
I do recognise just what your saying.But my point Was/is that "IF" the political will was there, they could do,and will do as they wish , the presidents have already been set, time and time again.Dispite all of the hand shakes, the kissing of babys and promises. If the Goverment of the day decides that, that is the policy it's going to persue then meer people are pawns to done with as they wish, and their feelings relationships etc. are all just minor details to be broken like twigs in the wind.
oldie.

I feel rather uneasy that a private army plus their political masters are allowed to flourish and excersise power over large tracts of land in modern day Europe. If these people were Muslim would they, their supporters and fundraisers not be hunted down with the greatest of vigour by most European state plus the USA?

Double standards or not?

Oldie,

What is the difference between the proposal you've put forward and ethnic cleansing of the Protestants from N. Ireland?

Regards
Steve M

quote:

Originally posted by Roy T:
I feel rather uneasy that a private army plus their political masters are allowed to flourish and excersise power over large tracts of land in modern day Europe.

Sounds like FARC in Columbia.

Steve,
I think you may have misinterpreted what I said or perhaps I am at fault for not making myself clearer.The point that I was making or trying to make was that the logical/only solution is a United Ireland and if there are[which there is] people who wish to remain [in their words ] a subject of the Queen Arggggggggggggggggggg I HATE SAYING THAT WORD, then the only way forward is for those people to be given a choice, I didn't advocate forced repatriation it would be their own free choice, alright with, as I said with the amount it has cost the Goverment in at least the last 40 years it could have been massive compansation as an incentive.I also said that it would not be the first time Goverments have taken this type of action as their policy when it suited them, the hypocrites that they are.If they were to carry out a similar policy to that ,that was carried out in Uganda and Rhodesia which was completly acceptable at the time, the sympathy card was played then, poor old white farmers etc. etc, then yes it would /could be called enthnic cleansing of sorts.It is just a way that I think may solve the problem I agree it's probably a bl--dy awful way but at the moment I just don't see another way forward.For the record I believe in a completly United Ireland,I have no consideration at all for religon in any of it's facets or guises, as it has caused, in it's name, more deaths than any other single issue. So to me it's simple, if you can't get on with your neighbour, for what ever reason MOVE!!!it's far,far better than dieing.
ps I have to admitt that I do not believe that the cause is just religion, as I don't remember seeing priest kicking the sh-t out of priest, thats just an excuse the reality is ,its a thug/criminal/power, thing against thug/criminal/power thing against thug[read politician]criminal/ power thing.
oldie.
[ as I'm away as from tomorrow morning for a few days[,THANK GOODNESS WAS THE REPLY ] please don't expect a responce to any reply[ what a way of doing things ,have your say and then Bu--er off sorry!!

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
I'd never condone State sponsored murder but, in this case, I'd make an exception.

So you would condone it! (nitpicking - sorry).

Anyway, I think you'll find that (as others have suggested) blood calls out for blood, and we'd find it just as productive as when the security services were in cahoots with the unionist terrorists and people as dangerous as Pat Finucane were being knocked off.

Part of the problem is that the situation is just such a mess out there. I also think that the media over here has clearly been, shall we say, sugar coating the truth about the IRA (as have politicians, and indeed, as have most of us). I think we've all been seeing what we wanted to, i.e. that because there was a cease-fire (in that the IRA aren't bombing us anymore) that meant things were much better. And to a great extend they are. However, the IRA are still a problem, whether it's knocking off banks and offering to shoot people. Since the cease-fire they have morphed into more of an organised crime gang, with their fingers in just about every dirty pie in NI. It is clearly unacceptable for us to carry on tolerating Adams co's close links to such people.

Of course, the only problem with that is that if we push them away, do they turn back to their older (and probably worse) ways. It's right old mess, and there's no simple answer, if there was we'd have done it a long time. There's a rather good episode of the west wing on the subject, which involves the British ambassador and a white house aid quoting dead irish writers back and forth while the former argues that someone (clearly meant to be adams) cannot visit the white house, before concluding that you've got to talk to these people, the position of the British government must still remain he can't go to the white house.

I suppose the best we can hope for is a marginalisation of sinn fein and the more moderate and peaceful SLDP to become the prime nationalist party.


regards,

Tam

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

quote:

Originally posted by Roy T:
I feel rather uneasy that a private army plus their political masters are allowed to flourish and excersise power over large tracts of land in modern day Europe.

Sounds like FARC in Columbia.

or The Americans and Us with our "Security Firms" in Iraq
oldie.

quote:

Originally posted by oldie:
ps I have to admitt that I do not believe that the cause is just religion, as I don't remember seeing priest kicking the sh-t out of priest, thats just an excuse the reality is ,its a thug/criminal/power, thing against thug/criminal/power thing against thug[read politician]criminal/ power thing.

You're right.

Then there's also the prejudice issue amongst many of the 'ordinary' people.

Is there an answer other than for the people to live together without this stuff (as many do already)? I don't think that anyone wants to leave their homes and communities.

Have a good weekend.
Regards
Steve M

Tam

I agree. The problem seems intractable. But, if you won't allow me to have the SAS waste Adams, will I be allowed to have him knee-capped or put through the IRA's most recent brilliant invention, the "Padre Pio"?

It's about time that he had done to him what he's condoning having done to "his" (ie young Catholics who don't toe the IRA line) people. And he's their f*cking MP! Words fail me.The twin images (gruesome both) of Adams's balls and a Stanley knife come to mind.

G

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Tam

I agree. The problem seems intractable. But, if you won't allow me to have the SAS waste Adams, will I be allowed to have him knee-capped or put through the IRA's most recent brilliant invention, the "Padre Pio"?

It's about time that he had done to him what he's condoning having done to "his" (ie young Catholics who don't toe the IRA line) people. And he's their f*cking MP! Words fail me.The twin images (gruesome both) of Adams's balls and a Stanley knife come to mind.

G

Nobody has a monopoly on suffering. To achieve a political settlement the IRA needs politicians surely?

Graham

One problem with your balls/knife idea is that Mr Adams seems to be without balls. What a thug.

DCT

More Paisley's that's what we need, innit.#


Fritz Von Mrs Tatcher you are a LIAR !!! to her face in the Commons, now that's balls, innit.

Hi Guys
Your comments regarding Ireland, the IRA are intersting. My experience is a little closer to the events. I grew up 2 miles from Coalisland, where the civil rights marches originated from in 1968, the issue at the time was housing, and the overt discrimination catholics faced in obtaining state housing. That event was the beginning of the current troubles. It's important to remember the Irish for centuries have tried to expell the British government from their country. And to a degree they have been successful. I moved to NZ when i was 12 and returned to Ireland in the early nineties to live in Belfast during a particularly difficult period. My family background in Ireland was protestant and pro the union. While living in Belfast i realised for there to be a permanent peace each side had to surrender power to a degree. And the conflict is about power and how it is exercised. It is also about an area that was economically deprived and how the troubles provided male adults with status and authority they would not have in an economically healthy democracy. Unfortunately poltical conflict contaminates a society deeply, especially when people resort to violence. The resort to violence is often the last resort, when state powers subvert demoracy, or when the state is so corrupt it is unwilling to provide basic protection for all its citizens. The state has a large duty to play fair, in this situation, it often has not. Propelling people to violence.
Now to more recent events. Anyone recall the spy ring at Stormont, that was being run from the Sinn Fein office? How many people were arrested, charged and taken to trial? The robbery of the Northern Bank will end up being a similar case, lots of disinformation, which the uncritical, compliant public swallow. If the police know who robbed the bank arrest them immediately. Due process should be followed, or again the state undermines some of the basic safeguards citizens expect to be upheld.
The only solution is for the British government in all its forms to set a date to leave Ireland and let the Irish alone settle it. You'd find that very few Irish would leave, and after some possible chaos things would settle down. I believe the 26 counties operates successfully as a sovereign nation. I'd have an education system similar to NZ, totally secular. Religion has been used as a divide and rule tool, there is no conflict over doctrine, its about power.
If we are going to turn our attention to criminal activity, it should include state forces and protestant paramilitaries. I do enjoy moral consistency.