Kimper cable instead of Naca5...

I would strongly advise your friend not to use Kimber cable with a Nait. If he really hates NACA5 he can try DNM solid core which is a similarly priced and safe alternative. Should still use at least 3.5m runs though.

Alex

i told him about the recommendend 2x 3,5 mtr lenght of his ls-cable. he said:"to me,if it sounds good, it IS good!"
Back in the days when he had his first Nait-2 he played for about 3 years with the kimber cable on his Nait-2. He didn't had any problems.

we'll see...

Regards,
Alco

Alex,

the 3.5m minimum is for Naim cable.

There is no reason why the same limit should apply with other cables.

Indeed, if the cable has a high capacitance, then long lengths *will* cause the amp to blow up.

cheers, Martin

Your friend can trust his ears until the Nait blows up - I fear that a short run of Kimber 8TC could do that. I am unfamiliar with 4PR - the best thing is to ring Naim, who will advise against its use, and then ring Russ Andrews and ask if its OK. They'll probably say yes and you'll then have to decide who to believe.

DNM promised to fix my 250 if it blew up. I ran it for a year on 2x5m of their cable and it ran colder than it did with Naca5.

Alex

Naim documents the specs, I think.

Phil
A5 is good enough for me

He uses this (and only this) in all his systems in the 3 different listening rooms.
With Naim and Sonneteer. He says:"It's perfectly safe with Naim and sounds even better,for less money."

well,...since he 's a Naim dealer
(who used naca5) for many years I think he (should) knows what he 's doing,eh...

Greetings,
Alco

If you're going back to a Nait, get A5. Beware of the charlatans out there who will offer you "richer" or "fuller" (remember, these approach "shimmering highs" as a descriptor - any alarm bells ringing yet?)... and they are likely not listening for the tune, or the sound of music!

Sure A5 has plenty for you to dislike - it's thick, hard to install (if you lack patience)... blah blah blah it's black (or white)... you need 3.5m minium.... but guess what? It allows your system to play music. Times like a bastard. Doesn't mask shit happening in the front of your system, and is not employed as a tone control. It's a cable - and a damn good one.

Blue home-made cable? wouldn't be made from CAT5 perchance?

You can completely ham-string a good system with the wrong cable, easier to do when taking the round-earth approach to cable-matching. We're fortunate in this world-of-Naim in that it's unecessary. No need for me to bang on further about it - I recommend for your homework you spend 2 hours reading the search results of "NACA5" and then post your findings - it's largely been said before.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - the 3.5m minimum applies to NACA5.

Also, I have heard one or two cables in my time, although not the Kimber stuff.

The Naca5 is THE cable to use for musicality.

I use Densen amps, so the warranty issue/damage to amps doesn't apply to me, but the Naim cable is still the best I've heard for PR&T and tune.

The Naca5 is the most musical BASS I have ever heard to date.

Chord Odyssey comes close, but not close enough - it gives a more solid architecture to the soundstage, but doesn't cut it in the tune department.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

quote:

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Blue home-made cable? wouldn't be made from CAT5 perchance?

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hmmm,you could be right,Rico
That CAT5 thing sounds familiar. It did had something to do with the wire normally being used for computers, I believe...

But my Naim dealer should know what he's doing right ? (I guess) He's been selling Naim for many years,and he sure knows about the Naca5 specifications,so if he uses some of his new DIY wire, it oughtta be safe.
(I can't believe he would like to hurt his reputation as a Naim dealer)

regards,
Alco

quote:

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But my Naim dealer should know what he's doing right ? (I guess) He's been selling Naim for many years,and he sure knows about the Naca5 specifications,so if he uses some of his new DIY wire, it oughtta be safe.
(I can't believe he would like to hurt his reputation as a Naim dealer)

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Far be it from I to cast aspersions on your local Naim dealer, and most are good. However, sometimes it is wise to be armed with knowledge rather than blind faith. To this end, you can get some of the round-earth lowdown on CAT-5 as speaker cable (including electrical characteristics) on this section of TNT (ok actually they give details for CAT-6, but you can search out typical CAT5 specs on Belden's website, amonst others). Then you can check against Naim's specs here, and make your own, informed, decision.

NACA5 is the one, though. And didn't that french actor in that scottish film say something along the lines of "there can be only one"?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

[This message was edited by Rico on MONDAY 08 April 2002 at 06:42.]

Ozren

quote:

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If you're going back to a Nait, get A5. Beware of the charlatans out there who will offer you "richer" or "fuller" (remember, these approach "shimmering highs" as a descriptor - any alarm bells ringing yet?)... and they are likely not listening for the tune, or the sound of music!

---

To be quite frank, I've tried a few different cables (DNM included, currently using A5 though) and A5 no more holds a tune than any of the others, but sacrifices bass control and finer detail in the sound IMHO. By doing this, I suspect it is more forgiving on some music - which might be mistaken for 'the tune', although I suspect it works in the same way that a soft focus lens can make people look more attractive, or for that matter beer can do likewise. It's about smoothing out the detail to allow the homogenous whole to come more to the fore.

Nothing wrong with that, really, but the Nait-2 is capable of a better sound. I'm persisting with A5 even though my ears tell me that it's not the best cable because:

(a) I have A5 in a convenient run,
(b) it's more resistant to rabbit teeth*
(c) it's more resistant to rabbit wee*
(d) rabbits ate my Cable Talk 3.1

...so you can understand where I'm coming from. There's no chance I'd use an expensive cable around the monsters, and I'm willin to sacrifice a bit of sound quality for a less edible cable construction, and the extra sleeving should make the core less susceptible to the ravages of urinus rabbitus.

quote:

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Doesn't mask shit happening in the front of your system, and is not employed as a tone control. It's a cable - and a damn good one.

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I beg to differ. It probably sounds good to a lot of people BECAUSE it masks the 'shit' which is happening further upstream. The wooliness and rolled-off treble are evidence of that (as compared to other, more readily chewed, cables that I've tried)

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

[This message was edited by Top Cat on MONDAY 08 April 2002 at 09:51.]

Chord Odyssey is good cable but not better than DNM by enough to warrant the expense. The Townsend I haven't tried (nor 4TC I'm afraid, Kit). 8TC works very well in my system so long as everything downstream is working well. It is the cable of choice for DV (and this is nothing to do with friendships or politics as I once suspected).

I suspect that it is my horrid round earth tendencies which lead me to appreciate the Kimber. Timing and rythm are vital to me. Pace, just for the sake of it, less so. But I also appreciate all the other things I can get from a system, all the round earth stuff which helps to suspend disbelief. Those who tell me that imaging and soundstaging are pure hi-fi artifice and not apparent at a live event, especially in the seats I can afford, seem to me to miss the point. If at home I can fill the whole room with Mahler's 5th or Coma Divine and be able to place the first violins relative to the violas, or the lead vocal and the drummer's backing, then I'm thrilled. I couldn't care less whether this equates strictly to reality or not.

Good, and unfortunately, usually expensive, cabling allows you to have your cake and eat it. PR&T and then some. It can also give you 'shimmering highs' (sorry Rico) and at least an extra octave of bass relative to Naca5.

To nail my colours to the mast, if I could afford Valhalla right through the system I'd probably do it - I'm that foolish; but at least I don't have rabbits.

Alex

I have not extensively tried nordost, but tried chord rumour Odessey, and the chord I think is the more 'flat earth'. Personally I would wait until all your system is set up, then try the cables, asyour L-300 will show up stuff that you wont have accounted for :-)

Depending on what your speakers are/will be, then choose..
Me and Alex favour 8TC, over A5 in DV systems

Cheers
Goose

I've not heard the DNM, esp in context of Naim system - can you expand a bit on 'better' please? Does it meet the electrical requirements of Naim? Given yes to that wuestion, I'd love the opportunity to compare.

You can keep your shimmering highs though - and I'll keep listening to nasty crash cymbals, rim shots, and the good old wooly Shure SM58.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

It sounds better, no question, but then I suspect that perhaps with the Nait we should be looking for cables that work synergistically with whatever speakers we use, rather than restricting ourselves to one cable and accepting whatever (potentially less than perfect) results it gives.

Me? I'm beginning to wonder whether speaker cable should be chosen with speakers in mind rather than amplifiers...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

2. Rico, I agree, I want shimmering highs when they shimmer, otherwise crash cymbals and rim shots will do just fine.

DNM is quite safe to use with Naim amps (I spent enough time finding out). Relative to Naca5, IMVHO, it is a touch bass light but better defined, much more transparent, less harsh and grainy, especially in upper-mid and top, no less musical and 'fast'.

All I can say is try it in your system, if you like it good, if you don't, then even better, you can stay with Naca5 unless you want to spend serious money which I know you don't!

Alex

BTW, I will be shocked if Naim do not release a higher-end cable to go with 552/500 within 2 years.

quote:

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Me? I'm beginning to wonder whether speaker cable should be chosen with speakers in mind rather than amplifiers...

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TC - that's the round-earth approach.

If you look at the speaker cable as the transmission line, and the speaker as the load, you will be closer to the truth. Altering the characteristics of the transmission line alter the eficiency and performance of the transmitting amplifier.

Its interesting to note that much of the cable argument arises when SF's enter the discussion. They are generally acknowleged as being great speakers. They are also voraciously amp hungry. If choosing your speakers demands strange cable loads, and a pair of 135's to drive them really well - and you don't have the budget for LP12 or CDSII and a 52 in front of them - surely it would make better sense to try other kit at the front, or select more appropriate speakers behind your Naim kit - rather than blaming the awful A5 (which happens to work very well with a variety of speakers, not just Naim.

And Richard - your comment that "Naim amps are excellent, they don't blow themselves up on a piece of speakerwire" is incorrect (apart from the Naim being excellent bit!). If you search the archives you will find confirmation from Naim that strange cable loads have caused damage to Naim kit in the past. Hence their caveat of speaker cables voiding the warranty where dmage occurs due to cable load. A moot point anyway - Alco's Nait 2 will be well out of warranty, and he should of course listen to what he enjoys.

cordially...

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Cables are a pet hate of mine, and a pet hate I have wasted a hell of a lot of time over the years (though thankfully very little money). One of my friends is a “high end” dealer, and as such insisted I borrow just about every cable known to man when I lived in London a few years ago. I tried the cables in my own system and also in varying stages of my friends typically US high end system. Results were to my ears surprisingly totally consistent between the two systems. Whilst I have not tried every cable mentioned here I have certainly tried most of them. I have not yet found one I like better than Naim A5, and I did not find an interconnect better than Naim Aro.

Of the speaker cables I have tried (Kimber 4TC & 8TC, the ultra expensive Straight Wire stuff, the top of range Cardas, Van den Hull The Wind, Audioquest, Deltek, etc etc), all attempted to sweeten the sound and throw everything right back behind the speakers, and all without exception killed the music from both a timing and tune perspective. It’s a conviction thing, that extra hard thwack of the snare, the guitar being thrashed just that little bit more to accent a particular phrase – A5 does it, the others do not. The others make the music sound dead and sterile.

As you know I’m running the same CD based system as you were prior to your recent changes, the only difference is our stands and mains blocks & CDX power lead (QS Ref and MW in my case). I am really curious as to what you didn’t like about your system.

My system is really easy on the ear, its not harsh or toppy at all. It has a slightly mid forward bias as Kans do, and the bass is not physical in its presence, but the notes are all there. It plays music fabulously and sounds remarkably open, clear, and far more expensive than it is. Above all it is fun. I can certainly think of nothing I would want to change in the cabling. As I have mentioned elsewhere I do eventually plan to get some larger speakers (Mystiques) to fill my largish room a little more effectively, but that’s it. It’s actually a great system as it stands.

Two things to bare in mind when reading this: First is that I listen quietly, I am not a volume freak at all so my Nait never runs out of steam – I listen at little more than most people would have their TV set. Secondly I simply don’t give a monkeys about stereo imaging – I very seldom even bother to sit between the speakers! I just want the impression of a real band playing real music somewhere “over there”, not the kind of big headphone like soundstage that many audiophiles are obsessed with. The key point is the phrase “real band playing real music” – i.e. people playing music they love in perfect tune and time with one another with real enthusiasm. As I am not remotely distracted by the gloss and imaging it tends to take me very little time to spot how easily the music gets damaged. Tune dem any cable in exactly the same way you would a component. A good trick is to see if it does the business musically by listening off axis first before sitting centrally to see if the presentation is to your taste. Its easier to tell the tune / timing thing without being distracted by where things are coming from.

Hope you find something that works for you.

Tony.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

quote:

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And last; nobody, not even Naim, mentions the speaker load itself in this equation. As if that doesn't matter at all regarding the poweramp. Hook up a low sensitivity speaker that dips well below 2 Ohms and your modest Naim amp will definitely get into trouble (and shortly after that the speaker even more so). Aah forget about it. As long as you use 3.5m of A5 your fine...

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That is exactly the point behind the cable recommendation.

Hopefully what follows will make sense

Almost all power amplifiers have a thing known as a Zobel network at their output. In its simplest form it consists of a resistor in series with the output and a capacitor down to ground. In a slightly more complex form it consists of an inductor / resistor / capacitor combination.

It's role is to stabilize the load the amplifier sees - it can't drop below the DC resistance or AC impedance of the series network, and at high frequencies (where the capacitor appears as a short circuit) the amp 'sees' the series resistance / impedance of the Zobel.

This in effect isolates the amplifier from the effects of the loudspeaker impedance variations, maintaining stability within the bounds that are determined by the manufacturer.

In Naim's design they chose to eliminate the output inductor, taking a decision to use the cable (a necessary item in every installation) to perform this function. For this reason it has an inductance that with the minimum 3.5m stipulated ensures unconditional stability, increasing cable length just increases the inductance. The critical part is the cable capacitance, which appears across the amplifier outputs 'short-circuiting' it at AC. The cable capacitance must not be too high (and Naim have published specs on the forum in the past, but should really place it in their manuals) or it will result in possible amplifier damage, through instability.

I say possible as the process of determining stability unconditionally is difficult and complex, and if you are working close to the edge of a stability margin it might only take the wrong CD to cause damage.

Of course then it is possible to use other cables of similar characterstics to A5. It is also possible to use dissimilar ones an get away with it, but the important thing that is difficult to get across is you have no idea how close you are standing to the cliff edge if you are blindfolded .

One step in the wrong direction and you're dead (or your Naim is!).

A.

It's your money, it's your hi-fi, it's your ears, it's your risk.

cheers

Nigel

quote:

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Originally posted by Andrew L. Weekes:
For this reason it has an inductance that with the minimum 3.5m stipulated ensures unconditional stability, increasing cable length just increases the inductance.

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I believe that increasing the length up to 10m will improve the stability of the amp, and lengths up to 20m will keep the amp within it's region of stability.

quote:

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The critical part is the cable capacitance, which appears across the amplifier outputs 'short-circuiting' it at AC. The cable capacitance must not be too high

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Indeed:-

quote:

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Date: 25-Nov-99 02:49
Author: julian vereker

In the manual, we advise that you should use Naim loudspeaker cable with our amps. It is part of the amplifier output circuit which expects a certain inductance and a very low capacitance (see below).

If your Naim amp is destroyed by using unsuitable cables, it is a clear failure mode and is not normally covered by warranty.

julian

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Please note that he doesn't just say 'not too high', he says 'very low'.

In other postings Julian made it very clear that the wrong cables could damage the amp, that it would be very clear from the type of damage that this had occured, and that it would not be covered under warranty.

cheers, Martin