How level is your LP12, and what do you do about it?

Jens,

I don’t understand why did you check if the TT is leveled - as you don't mention that something was wrong with its sound.
I don’t touch my equipment (including the LP12) and it sounds great years after years.

If you felt that something is wrong and you went to level the TT, than the question is is it sound better now?
If nothing is wrong with the sound – why bothering to level the TT?

Arye

Level the TT as good as you can. Get access to the bottom of the LP12. Be carefull if you use the Valhalla kit!
Put the spirit level on the spindle. Switch the TT on. Turn screws of springs to level the platter. Put a little weight at the edge of the platter. Let it run for a while. It'll settle your setup. Remove the weight and look that the platter is still in level.
If it is you're ready.

Enjoy

Hermann

...but you'll need a Mana level. Works a treat on TTs, CDPs, speakers, you name it. Best 25quid accessory ever made, IMHO.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

You said;

quote:

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A level plinth will ensure that the springs are properly oriented to bounce vertically.

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This is not true at all! You are assuming the spring screws on every LP-12 are automatically vertical. It is possible that all three screws are parallel to each other, but to "ensure" it the steps go like this; First level the plinth, then remove each of the three springs and check each long screw for perpendicularity to the plinth (this is also the time to tighten the nuts on these screws as they can work loose which also means less vertical). Next is the step where you replace the springs and level the armboard/platter. Be sure to use the Linn deep-socket tool as this puts little side pressure on the vertical screws. I have seen the results of amateurs who use a box wrench or socket drive to adjust the spring-leveling lock-nuts and bend the screws without knowing it.

Jens,
The answer to your question is ideally to have your dealer set-up your LP-12 in your system. And, yes, it makes a difference. If the dealer can't set it up in your home, order the Linn LP-12 tool kit and jig (they are relatively inexpensive) and follow the set-up guide to the letter; ie. don't skip steps.
What type of support are you using for your LP-12? I have seen situations with the turntable on a suspended wood floor and the act of standing on the floor near the turntable can cause the floor to sag which will give the appearance of an unlevel table. Are you doing all of your leveling on the turntables support? What kind of level are you using? The weight and placement of the spirit level can upset the how "level" the platter/armboard is.

FWIW, the Mana spirit level though satisfactory for leveling the platter, is not as good for the plinth as it is only measuring a small portion of it.

Ron The Mon,
Arch Kan defender and wall driller.

Ah, the delights of an LP12!

Flabby around the bottom and never predictable with regards to precision handling.

I had a girlfriend like this once. I traded her in for a leaner, firmer sort, who requires little maintainance. Give her a plentiful supply of music and she treats you lovingly and faithfully all the time.

Of course, there are people who prefer the chunky high maintainance types and there is no shame in that at all.

Good luck jens!

Hi Jens:

The chances of getting the TT's support surface AND the plinth AND the platter all exactly level are pretty small.

Plinth leveling is not as important as platter leveling. Also, the plinth being wood is difficult to measure for level anyway, - you'll find it varies from point to point on the periphery.

Someone above suggested leveling the plinth and then adjusting the springs' locknuts and implied that this wont change the bounce. BZZZZZZT, thank you for playing!

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

...and the good ol pistonic bounce (what guy or gal can resist that!) usually does it.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Hmmm, funny you should all mention Mana spirit level. Had a strange experience with those recently. See the following photos...





you'd certainly wonder what was going on! I switched them left and right, in case the steel flat of the SBL was twisted - but same result. I suppose the true test would be to introduce a third Mana spirit level into the equation and test on a sheet of mana glass (very flat, natrually), photograph and note the trend (perhaps mine is off, perhaps the early level is off) - but what if they're all different?

One very puzzled Mana Spirit Level owner.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - Vuk, perhaps you'd be so kind as to post a phot of the engineer's level you use?

quote:

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FWIW, the Mana spirit level though satisfactory for leveling the platter, is not as good for the plinth as it is only measuring a small portion of it.

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Excellent point, Ron. I too prefer to use a conventional spirit level for plint checking duties.

PS - ten points for "name that tune in the post title"

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

James wrote:

>Mark Dunn said ...

quote:

Someone above suggested leveling the plinth and then adjusting the springs' locknuts and implied that this wont change the bounce. BZZZZZZT, thank you for playing!

Yes, that was me, and I have adjusted my springs often enough to know that is the case for my LP12.<

James, you have the one in a zillion LP12s. Believe me, I've done more than enough to be sure about this one. I've personally experienced this only once (so I know it does happen) but it's rare. That particular deck I did must've had good 'juju' because the sucker just kept bouncing and bouncing with little regard for the laws of nature. I envied the lady that got that one!

From a purely mechanical point of view, the compression rates of the springs are not closely enough matched for this not to be an issue unless you're really lucky and get a perfect set.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

quote:

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One very puzzled Mana Spirit Level owner.

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A good way to check a spirit level is to first set it on a surface (ie LP12 inner). Adjust the TT and get the level to 'show good'. Pick the level up and rotate it 90 degress at a time. It should "show good" each time. If not the level is 'off'.

Good machinist's levels have an adjustment to correct a level to its base. Unfortunately a spirit level does not and must be *set* correctly during manufacture.

hth,
jim

You said;

quote:

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In the absence of proof otherwise, there is a far better chance that [the spring screws] would be vertical if the plinth itself was level.

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Have you ever heard of the "Nirvana" mod to the LP-12? Do you know what it is and why? Look it up and you'll realize the burden of proof is on you.

I do not recognize your "simple maintenance" vs. "a complete rebuild". EVERY TIME an LP-12 is opened underneath, EVERYTHING should be checked. The performance of the deck will only be as good as its weakest link. Your record deck (LP-12/Aro/Geddon/cart/Mana/Prefix) retails for $8000. Why wouldn't you buy the proper Linn tool kit and manual for $200. and spend the extra 10 minutes every six months to set it up right?

If you're getting excessive vibrations from your car tires, would you be satisfied with the dealer just balancing your tires? Would you let him tell you that checking the tire for proper roundness and inflation or aligning the wheels should only be saved for an occasional rebuild? Tire balancing may provide a noticeable improvement but unless every related component is checked and adjusted, you won't be achieving the maximum performance from your vehicle. Would you let your auto mechanic tell you that he assumes your wheels are properly aligned and the burden of proof against it is on you?

Ron The Mon,
Arch Kan defender and wall driller.

James,

I have a LP12 and a CDi. The dealer set the TT for me once - and it works excellent since. I have always the ability to compare
Between the sound of the LP12 to the sound of the CDI.

So I don’t have the urge to check if the TT is leveled. I don’t have the urge to check anything as long as the system sounds well.

What I like with my system (along the quality of sound…) is the fact that it sounds excellent each time I want to listen to it without a demand of any efforts from me.

quote:

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Because you never know what you are missing until you HEAR what you are missing

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It seems to me like a philosophic argue – am I suppose to check my system every day in order to be sure that nothing is wrong with its setting?
I think that the order is – first you notice that something is wrong with the sound and than you check what is the cause for it.

Arye

PS - ten points for "name that tune in the post title"

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio [/QUOTE]

How Bout
Grandpa was a carpenter

Vern

ten points are due to Vern - outstanding work!



Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Hi Folks,

My question seems to have sparked off a bit of a debate. You guys are passionate about setting up those LP12s.

On the weekend I took your advice (well partly). I elevated the turntable above its normal wall shelf home with 4 equal jam tins and got the suspension level (at least according to my DIY spirit level). For those of you who haven't tried this, it is really very easy. Far easier than getting a glass shelf to sit on 4 spikes without ringing. Having done that I thought about the bounce, but resolved not to go too far down the track with this. It sounds a simple criteria: the bounce should be pistonic (ie go straight up and down). Problem is-from where do you impart the bounce, and how do you ensure your application of force is in the vertical plane? If you deviate slightly from the centre of effort (or whatever you want to call the mid point between the 3 springs)you will impart sideways movement to the bounce. I wasn't confident of being able to replicate my bounce test very reliably, so I decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

Anyway, does it sound better than before-I'm not sure. Does it sound great-you bet it does.

Thanks for your input.

Jens

quote:

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Problem is-from where do you impart the bounce, and how do you ensure your application of force is in the vertical plane?

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The bounce should be imparted on a line between the platter centre spindle and the centre of the arm bearing, closer to the spindle than the arm.

Just a gentle prod is all that is needed, even an uneven prod will produce pistonic motion after the initial excitement has died away.

A.

Andrew,

Is the initial bouncing always accompanied by a creaking sound from the spings/grommets? This too dies away (leaving the platter bouncing silently), but I've never been able to get it completely silent from the initial "prod". Also, how long does the bouncing last - I once heard someone claim it was over a minute but I am not sure if that was a joke.

Thanks,

Jeremy (no Linn dealer nearby)

I'm not convinced the creaking is an issue to sound quality, but it is sometimes caused by excess moulding flash on the grommets that pass through the sub-chassis.

I usually remove any excess with a very sharp knife, before fitting.

Mine creaks a little when bounced heavily, but it stops soon after prodding.

As for how long the suspension bounces there are so many variables I'd hate to be the cause of any hang-ups

The age / condition of the springs makes a difference, as will the mass present on the sub-chassis (i.e. arm type).

Mine probably bounces for 30 sec's tops.

Whilst suspension bounce is a factor, there are bigger battles elsewhere that can degrade LP12 sound just as much - good bounce is no guarantee of good sound.

A.