the role of imperfection in all music
Posted by: mikeeschman on 02 April 2009
I think the best place to begin discussing the role of imprefection in music is at its root, and that would be the role of tuning and intonation in what you hear.
Here is a brief description of just intonation and its relationship to equal temperament (from musiciansfriend) :
What Is "Just Intonation"?
Just Intonation, abbreviated JI, does not refer to a single tuning or scale. Rather, it refers to "any system of tuning in which all of the intervals can be represented by whole-number frequency ratios." (David B. Doty, The Just Intonation Primer).
To illustrate, the often-used tuning note, A440, vibrates 440 times a second, and its frequency is said to be 440 Hertz. An octave above A440 is A880, which vibrates 880 times a second, or 880 Hertz. The ratio between 880 and 440 is 2 to 1, written 2:1. A just-tuned perfect fifth above A440 is E660, a ratio of 3:2. The interval between any two notes in a just-tuned scale can be represented as a whole-number ratio. A major third is 5:4, a minor third is 6:5, and so on. Most musicians who use just-tuned scales prefer lower prime number ratios - numbers divisible by 2, 3, 5, 7, less often 11, 13, 17, 19, and higher.
Almost all popular and classical music from American and European countries is tuned in 12-note equal temperament, which is based on the twelfth root of two, an irrational number used to divide the octave (2:1) into twelve equal parts. So, other than the perfect octave, none of the intervals in 12-note equal temperament can be expressed as a whole number ratio, and these intervals sound different than their just-tuned counterparts. For example, the interval between the two notes in a 12-note equal-tempered major third is significantly wider than the interval between the two notes of a just-tuned major third.
Another difference between JI and 12-note equal temperament is that JI has an infinite number of pitches to draw from, whereas 12-note equal temperament has only 12 (granting expressive pitch inflections). JI is open-ended, and many possibilities remain to be discovered.
Just tunings are available in most keyboards and sound modules that are user-tunable. One or two just tunings may be included among the tuning presets, labeled "pure major", "pure minor", or similar.
I hope George sees this and expounds on it.
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by Mat Cork
A cheeky thread Mike.
For me it doesn't relate at all to this, it's when performers deviate from what we or they expect, in communicating emotion. It's when Mark Eitzel cry's when he sings, it's the little things that show performers are human. That for me is the root of it, and the beauty in music as an active medium. The fallability of us all...Nick Drakes records are sometimes recorded when he was clearly in great distress and mental anguish - terrible for him to suffer like that, but great news for us, as the results are so moving.
Some of the Naim Concerts Under the Dome tracks are lovely, I like the fact that you can hear folk coughing...it's a more intimate experience.
Seasick Steve is a great example in popular terms, always out of tune, but right in the groove.
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by Derry
Mike
It would be more helpful if, rather than quoting stuff I, and suspect you, don't understand (and actually seems to say nothing about imperfection anyway), you say how this is imperfection and how it relates to how and what we enjoy.
Also, if there is imperfection inherent in all music, if that is the proposition, how can you post a thread about perfect music/performance?
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Derry:
Mike
It would be more helpful if, rather than quoting stuff I, and suspect you, don't understand (and actually seems to say nothing about imperfection anyway), you say how this is imperfection and how it relates to how and what we enjoy.
Also, if there is imperfection inherent in all music, if that is the proposition, how can you post a thread about perfect music/performance?
the fact that pianos and orchestras place the same notes at slightly different pitches is an imperfection. as the citation states, this happens because the notes on the piano are divided into twelve equally spaced notes in the octave, whereas the orchestra places notes at whole number ratios. those are two different sets of pitches. that's all that there is to understand in the post. i felt that the quote from musiciansfriend was sufficient to explain this. i understand this quite well, because i've heard it for 40+ years :-)
giving a perfect performance is that you did as well as can be done with the tools at your disposal. for me, it particularly means that the phrasing, rhythm and articulation is flawless, and that there are no "clams".
and a number of different approaches can result in flawless phrasing, rhythm and articulation - it is not a single approach in any piece.
since there is no possibility of doing better by "just tuning" a piano, because music moves from one key to another with great frequency, that an equal temperament is the best that can possibly be done for a piano performance.
actually, having all the octaves on a piano line up perfectly is practically unattainable.
so we have perfect performances given on imperfect instruments :-)
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by Derry
Is it only the piano (which is not actually mentioned in the first post) that has this aberration?
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by JamieL
The tuning of some instruments is dependant on the temperature of the place they are to be played.
When an audience comes into a cold auditorium, they will gradually increase the temperature, which will cause things to expand, and can so change the tuning of instruments. A piano would probably be the most likely to be affected, as unlike other orchestral instruments the player does not tune it at the start of the performance.
In rock music one instrument that particularly was affected by this was the Mellotron (an early keyboard instrument that used tapes of pre-recorded notes/sounds - strings, flute, church organ). With lights, close crowds, electric amplification, and the internal motors of the instrument, the concerts got very hot and the instrument was affected by the heat a great deal. Two bands in particular who used two, or more Mellotrons live were king Crimson, and Tangerine Dream, both were influenced by this discord from the Mellotrons in shaping their music, which so began to be more discordant. Having two Mellotrons on one stage, each would heat up at a different rate.
Another musician to consider with regard to tuning and scales is Thelonious Monk, who I have read played African scales, which I believe are a 16 note scale on the piano, by playing the notes either side of the missing note in order to approximate the note needed for the African scale.
Beyond tuning, in modern music there are a lot of artefacts that were thought of a imperfections in the music that have been incorporated into it. The most obvious being guitar feedback from amplifiers, which artists such as in Jimi Hendrix in particular made into a new style. Hendrix even played guitar solos by moving the guitar through the soundwave and so using the feedback frequency to change the note and so play the section without plucking the strings.
Similarly some CDs I have use samples of a scratched vinyl record as part of the composition.
Must rush, but thought this might offer some examples that be of interest.
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Derry:
Is it only the piano (which is not actually mentioned in the first post) that has this aberration?
sadly no. organ and wind instruments with valves have issues too. wind instruments with valves are actually a combination of 7 different instuments with 7 different lengths of tubing which can only play a chromatic scale because the valves allow the player to change the length of tubing air is moving through. unfortunately, the valve system gives slightly incorrect tubing lengths for most valve combinations (some combinations being worst than others).
george is more competent to address the orchestral issues than i am - hope he adds to this thread.
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by JamieL
Perhaps imperfections are needed in music. When drum machines/computers were first developed it was discovered that they had to have some drift built into them, or they sounded wrong.
This may also have something to say about the ability of drummer to keep time!
Joking aside, the sound of a string section, or orchestra is due to slight imperfections in the tuning of each instrument, and also that no two strings are vibrating exactly the same way (in addition to the harmony played). This also varies to a tiny degree depending on where the listener is as the waves from some instruments either combine and amplify, and others cancel each other out.
I suspect that if a 'perfect' piece of music were to be recorded, or more likely generated using computers, that it would sound anaemic, or in some way not like music.
Personally I do like imperfections in music, one particular guitar solo I love is from a live broadcast of a David Bowie concert from Paris in 1995, where just at the start of Reeves Gabrels solo he breaks a string, so instantly detuning the guitar. He uses the tremello arm to pull back some sense of tuning, but the solo is wonderful for the fight between remaining in tune, and the expression of the pure noise the song calls for. (Please note 'solo' is used in the modern rock/incorrect way, to mean lead instrument.)
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
This may also have something to say about the ability of drummer to keep time!
Carl Palmer once said a metronome could keep better time than he could, but he liked to think he was more entertaining than a metronome - in my book he certainly is.
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by mikeeschman
i'll bet perfection is going to turn out to be a much more popular thread than imperfection :-)
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by Mat Cork
I can take a photo of the night sky on a 14mp RAW file which is pretty spot on in terms of accuracy. Van Gogh did a generally rougher job, but it also showed what he felt.
My efforts are much cheaper to buy on the open market (...the whole pound-euro thing).
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by 'haroldbudd'
JamieL, the mellotron is a perfect example of an instrument who's very imperfections are what give it the sound that fans love.
I just made this little piece for you ( and any other Mellotron lovers)
Enjoy, you can download or play from site
Mike, you just know this thread would not be complete without some of my sonic chicanery !
Long live the mighty TRON !!
regards
http://www.4shared.com/file/96407111/44fdbd2b/visigoths_and_mellotrons.htmlPosted on: 02 April 2009 by mjamrob
I think what this discussion proves is that any composer worth his salt writes a piece of music with the imperfect pitched notes (and overtones) of a particular instrument in mind. And therefore as far as that piece of music is concerned it would be less successful if performed on an instrument without those 'imperfections' of pitch. Also composers have been known to write pieces with particular performers in mind to showcase them, often not because of their perfect technique but because of their particular 'imperfect' tone or idiosyncratic sound - Peter Pears for Benjamin Britten comes to mind.
This thread is based on a completely different definition of 'perfection/imperfection' in music, to that of performance and interpretation. The terms are extremely general and therefore limited in musical analysis IMO, but the thread is interesting in spite of this.
regards,
mat
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by mjamrob:
The terms are extremely general and therefore limited in musical analysis IMO, but the thread is interesting in spite of this.
regards,
mat
the thread is an excuse for two things :
1 - to draw george out and have him talk at length about the orchestral aspects of intonation (please george :-))
2 - to have haroldbudd post more grovvy musak,
which he has already done.
Posted on: 02 April 2009 by mjamrob
quote:
the thread is an excuse for two things :
1 - to draw george out and have him talk at length about the orchestral aspects of intonation (please george :-))
2 - to have haroldbudd post more grovvy musak,
which he has already done.
That makes sense - hopefully they will oblige!
regards,
mat
Posted on: 03 April 2009 by JohanR
quote:
Is it only the piano (which is not actually mentioned in the first post) that has this aberration?
A guitar is supposed to be what we here calls "12-note". Physically, the frets are 1/12 of an octave apart. But, because the strings doesn't vibrate exactly as they are supposed to from the simple theory, the resulting frequency deviate slightly from what's excpected. So, a guitar can never be exactly in tune over the whole fretboard.
I never been much bothered about, my pich hearing isn't that exact. But a friend of mine can spend hours trying to tune the guitar so it sounds perfect for all notes. Of course he never gets there!
On the subject of music being played perfect or not. Of course, real human musicians doesn't play perfect, even the really good ones plays different from each other. And different musicians plays different together! This, in my book, is one of the most important parts of music and what makes it interesting to listen to. Computers aren't good musicians.
JohanR
Posted on: 03 April 2009 by Whizzkid
quote:
Originally posted by Mat Cork:
A cheeky thread Mike.
For me it doesn't relate at all to this, it's when performers deviate from what we or they expect, in communicating emotion. It's when Mark Eitzel cry's when he sings, it's the little things that show performers are human. That for me is the root of it, and the beauty in music as an active medium. The fallability of us all...Nick Drakes records are sometimes recorded when he was clearly in great distress and mental anguish - terrible for him to suffer like that, but great news for us, as the results are so moving.
Some of the Naim Concerts Under the Dome tracks are lovely, I like the fact that you can hear folk coughing...it's a more intimate experience.
Seasick Steve is a great example in popular terms, always out of tune, but right in the groove.
^^This
Sean Ryder has no range, is out of tune and as gruff as they come but the Happy Mondays would be nowt without him. And this thread is just twisting my melon maaan
Dean..
Posted on: 03 April 2009 by mjamrob
quote:
A guitar is supposed to be what we here calls "12-note". Physically, the frets are 1/12 of an octave apart. But, because the strings doesn't vibrate exactly as they are supposed to from the simple theory, the resulting frequency deviate slightly from what's excpected. So, a guitar can never be exactly in tune over the whole fretboard.
Yes I always hear those deviations when tuning the open strings of my Gibson guitar with tune-matic bridge.
But it's not exactly true that a guitar can never be in tune over the whole fretboard. I've also tuned the next octave up at the 12th fret by adjusting the individual saddles, and checking the harmonic against the 12th fret with a digital tuner - it is spot on. In theory this should mean the guitar is in tune all the way up the fretboard.
I've often wondered how digital tuners work if the pitch is oscillating.
Still none of this makes any difference to the quality of music possible on the instrument.
regards,
mat
