A Brief, incomplete and biased History of Music on One Page

The trilogy - Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart. There's just a lifetime of listening and interpreting with THOSE three! I just listened to Murray Perahia's Emperor Concerto. If that isn't bordering on some sort of perfection, I don't know what is. What a ride!

Taking a wider view...

The contents of the Voyager Golden Record, selected for NASA by a team headed by Carl Sagan and sent on the two Voyager spacecraft in 1977, is an eclectic mix of music from planet Earth for the benefit of any other beings who might happen upon them one day:

* Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F. First Movement, Munich Bach Orchestra, Karl Richter, conductor. 4:40
* Java, court gamelan, "Kinds of Flowers," recorded by Robert Brown. 4:43
* Senegal, percussion, recorded by Charles Duvelle. 2:08
* Zaire, Pygmy girls' initiation song, recorded by Colin Turnbull. 0:56
* Australia, Aborigine songs, "Morning Star" and "Devil Bird," recorded by Sandra LeBrun Holmes. 1:26
* Mexico, "El Cascabel," performed by Lorenzo Barcelata and the Mariachi México. 3:14
* "Johnny B. Goode," written and performed by Chuck Berry. 2:38
* New Guinea, men's house song, recorded by Robert MacLennan. 1:20
* Japan, shakuhachi, "Tsuru No Sugomori" ("Crane's Nest,") performed by Goro Yamaguchi. 4:51
* Bach, "Gavotte en rondeaux" from the Partita No. 3 in E major for Violin, performed by Arthur Grumiaux. 2:55
* Mozart, The Magic Flute, Queen of the Night aria, no. 14. Edda Moser, soprano. Bavarian State Opera, Munich, Wolfgang Sawallisch, conductor. 2:55
* Georgian S.S.R., chorus, "Tchakrulo," collected by Radio Moscow. 2:18
* Peru, panpipes and drum, collected by Casa de la Cultura, Lima. 0:52
* "Melancholy Blues," performed by Louis Armstrong and his Hot Seven. 3:05
* Azerbaijan S.S.R., bagpipes, recorded by Radio Moscow. 2:30
* Stravinsky, Rite of Spring, Sacrificial Dance, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Igor Stravinsky, conductor. 4:35
* Bach, The Well-Tempered Clavier, Book 2, Prelude and Fugue in C, No.1. Glenn Gould, piano. 4:48
* Beethoven, Fifth Symphony, First Movement, the Philharmonia Orchestra, Otto Klemperer, conductor. 7:20
* Bulgaria, "Izlel je Delyo Hagdutin," sung by Valya Balkanska. 4:59
* Navajo Indians, Night Chant, recorded by Willard Rhodes. 0:57
* Holborne, Paueans, Galliards, Almains and Other Short Aeirs, "The Fairie Round," performed by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of London. 1:17
* Solomon Islands, panpipes, collected by the Solomon Islands Broadcasting Service. 1:12
* Peru, wedding song, recorded by John Cohen. 0:38
* China, ch'in, "Flowing Streams," performed by Kuan P'ing-hu. 7:37
* India, raga, "Jaat Kahan Ho," sung by Surshri Kesar Bai Kerkar. 3:30
* "Dark Was the Night," written and performed by Blind Willie Johnson. 3:15
* Beethoven, String Quartet No. 13 in B flat, Opus 130, Cavatina, performed by Budapest String Quartet. 6:37


When asked if it would have been preferable to have simply included Bach's complete works, someone (Sagan?) is said to have quipped, "That would just be showing off."

Magnificent post Chief!

I'm going to dredge the intabypass for all of it later this afternoon. If Sagan did say that then he is an even greater Mega Hero.

Think it's too late to catch up to Voyager with a USB stick and the digital versions?
I hope the aliens thought to keep at least one TT working.

LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


Still waiting to have an impulse to write the next line …

Late 20th Century: Hip Hop, House & Techno redefines who, how and where people create music from their heart, without any technical or musical training, highlighting that music is far more primitive a notion than the high brow theorists would have us believe.



Dean...

It surely highlights that in some cases and genres, music is ... far more primitive a notion than the high brow theorists would have us believe.

The degree of craft, finesse and, subtlety in any work of art, music included, will vary according to the skill, intention, and learning of its author.

This degree may not be in absolute correlation to its inherent worth or durability.

ATB from George

quote:

Late 20th Century: Hip Hop, House & Techno redefines who, how and where people create music from their heart, without any technical or musical training, highlighting that music is far more primitive a notion than the high brow theorists would have us believe.

Dean, I'm really not clear as to what you mean here? Who are these "high brow theorists" you are referring to? Better yet, who are these people who are suddenly creating music from there heart?

In my opinion, it speaks volumes to where mankind has evolved and obviously is heading. As rebellious counterculture grows in popularity we witness the values and norms represented through music. Simple as that.

Music is nothing more than a representation of social and political values at any given point in time. In our current day and age music is spread very quickly. Problem is that the best of what we have today doesn't always get heard. Today we are just fed (marketed to) to death.

Compare the lyrics (values) found in any of today's mainstream music and compare it to that found in Bach, Haydn, or Schubert or any literature/poetry of the past etc, for example.

Regards,
Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


Still waiting to have an impulse to write the next line …

Late 20th Century: Hip Hop, House & Techno redefines who, how and where people create music from their heart, without any technical or musical training, highlighting that music is far more primitive a notion than the high brow theorists would have us believe.



Dean...

Hip Hop, House & Techno are more dependent on technology than any other music. Not knowing what you are doing doesn't change that, or make the music more primitive.

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:

quote:

Late 20th Century: Hip Hop, House & Techno redefines who, how and where people create music from their heart, without any technical or musical training, highlighting that music is far more primitive a notion than the high brow theorists would have us believe.

Dean, I'm really not clear as to what you mean here? Who are these "high brow theorists" you are referring to? Better yet, who are these people who are suddenly creating music from there heart?

In my opinion, it speaks volumes to where mankind has evolved and obviously is heading. As rebellious counterculture grows in popularity we witness the values and norms represented through music. Simple as that.

Music is nothing more than a representation of social and political values at any given point in time. In our current day and age music is spread very quickly. Problem is that the best of what we have today doesn't always get heard. Today we are just fed (marketed to) to death.

Compare the lyrics (values) found in any of today's mainstream music and compare it to that found in Bach, Haydn, or Schubert or any literature/poetry of the past etc, for example.

Regards,
Doug

Now my post was intentionally provocative, I have nothing against understanding the intricacies of music in general as that is interesting to me but I'm quite an intelligent person and its not really rocket science, its when within the musings of the Classical folk on these boards who seem to put this above everything else as regards to music. Matt Cork has tried to explain this to Mike and help him understand other forms of music to maybe see that a "high brow" intellectual stance is not the only way, George and others fall into this category as well, the amount of putting certain composers on pedal stools, and for that heavily chastising others, who were around at a time when it was really only their education and family influences that enabled them to do what they did (and wasn't commissions their main form of income?). Matt Cork once said how many Mozarts existed in Mozarts time when the general populous were uneducated and did not have access to to the things Mozart did?

Today with the advent of modern technology many people have access to making music and yes there is a lot of average music out there and lots of superficial music marketed at kids, but at the same time we have a abundance of creativity and music genii that would have been unthinkable in the days of Bach. Though what about all of the folk music that was being passed down the generations that might have been lost because of the inability to write down the music and lyrics?

Now the only reason we have Bach and not many of his contemporaries is that time selects the quality, modern mainstream acts will not be remembered as much as the modern greats and that is all that has happened. I imagine there was still much average music performed in the time of Bach or Beethoven but it has been rightly lost in time, so as today we remember The Beatles, The Kinks & Led Zeppelin and not the copycat bands out to make a buck, quality prevails over time. Also do you not find music that pleases you or do you follow the mainstream blindly? I have recently just started my classical journey, Jean Sibelius is my main man at the moment and I find that music from the late 1900's and 20th century is what I mainly like as opposed to Haydn, Mozart and Bach, though I'm not ruling them out in the future. But it is no more important or complicated than my core love of Electronic music, the intricacies of Squarepusher, Autechre or Aphex Twin, people are trying to work out how Autechre make their music just like you are trying to understand the intricacies of Bach. Also Hip Hop when done well is the highest expression of the black mans struggle in the modern world and is very important and will be remembered for a very long time to come and that can be made with no instruments anywhere near the music human voice only. My from the heart comment just means that the expression is the music not the theoretical structure. I find that much music from now is overlooked as being simplistic and lacking compared to the Classics and for me a mnay others it is not so that was why I wrote my little provactive statement.


I hope this is clear because I have a lot of thoughts swimming around in my head that have been provoked by the many Classical threads in the music room and isn't that the point of the threads?



Dean... takes forever to write a response

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


Still waiting to have an impulse to write the next line …

Late 20th Century: Hip Hop, House & Techno redefines who, how and where people create music from their heart, without any technical or musical training, highlighting that music is far more primitive a notion than the high brow theorists would have us believe.



Dean...

Hip Hop, House & Techno are more dependent on technology than any other music. Not knowing what you are doing doesn't change that, or make the music more primitive.

Mike,

If I want to I can play House music on a Piano, bash sheets of metal to make Techno and beatbox to produce Hip Hop so I find your point moot and thanks for proving my above statement (last post).



Dean... Playing Bach, The Well Tempered Clavier, Friedrich Gulda on CD.

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
My from the heart comment just means that the expression is the music not the theoretical structure. I find that much music from now is overlooked as being simplistic and lacking compared to the Classics and for me and many others it is not so....

..I hope this is clear because I have a lot of thoughts swimming around in my head that have been provoked by the many Classical threads in the music room and isn't that the point of the threads?

Dean

Cheers, Dean. Very nicely said. And your point had been proven without your need to respond, but I, for one, am glad you did.

I initially read the Classical threads with great interest, but as often as not, leave them behind shortly, because knowledge-gained and interest generated is often replaced with endless subjective hyperbole/debate which is essentially nothing more than a parallel to current marketing style.

Sometimes a seed is planted, but I often learn more just looking at the pictures and doing my own research. For me personally, my musical journey has found little reason to look back in history and significant reasons to constantly try to look forward.

good listenin'
Jeff A

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
Now my post was intentionally provocative, I have nothing against understanding the intricacies of music in general as that is interesting to me but I'm quite an intelligent person and its not really rocket science, its when within the musings of the Classical folk on these boards who seem to put this above everything else as regards to music.

Not being able to hear a suspension or a key change doesn't enhance your experience of music. If you can hear it, you'll get more out of listening to music.

If you had the same attitude towards the written word, even the Grimms' fairy tales would be beyond your reach.

It's all very crude, with the hint of uninformed hysteria.

Whatever floats your boat.

For myself, I prefer being able to understand whatever music is presented to me. But that's just me.

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


Still waiting to have an impulse to write the next line …

Late 20th Century: Hip Hop, House & Techno redefines who, how and where people create music from their heart, without any technical or musical training, highlighting that music is far more primitive a notion than the high brow theorists would have us believe.



Dean...

Hip Hop, House & Techno are more dependent on technology than any other music. Not knowing what you are doing doesn't change that, or make the music more primitive.

Mike,

If I want to I can play House music on a Piano, bash sheets of metal to make Techno and beatbox to produce Hip Hop so I find your point moot and thanks for proving my above statement (last post).



Dean... Playing Bach, The Well Tempered Clavier, Friedrich Gulda on CD.

I am able to comprehend any musical thought with which I am presented, regardless of what century. That's the way I like it.

Why wouldn't you want to be able to do that?

It's a record of the human condition.

Do you have no sense of empathy for your predecessors?

Do you live without a sense of history?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I am able to comprehend any musical thought with which I am presented, regardless of what century. That's the way I like it.
Why wouldn't you want to be able to do that?

For me personally, you have answered your own question.

Jeff A

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Anderson:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I am able to comprehend any musical thought with which I am presented, regardless of what century. That's the way I like it.
Why wouldn't you want to be able to do that?

For me personally, you have answered your own question.

Jeff A

Jeff, that is an absolutely perfect example of a cheap shot.

I'm trying to convey what I mean in words. If you would do the same, we could converse.

Remember converse?

Quoted from;

Jeff Anderson

"For me personally, my musical journey has found little reason to look back in history and significant reasons to constantly try to look forward."

Hi Jeff.

Does this mean that you see music as constantly getting better as time flies by? Or has it more to do with the fact that people are largely more comfortable with whatever they consider contempory? It seems likely that to ignore past efforts is likely to cause a person to miss out on something they may well find to be utterly fabulous. Although as there is so much it is a bloody difficult search without help.

Interesting debate this. Many years ago I attended a film theory course that covered topics like editing, cinematography, narrative techniques, and so on. It enhanced my intellectual appreciation of certain films, but I don't think I enjoyed films more as a result of this knowledge. That's not to say one can't derive pleasure from one's intellectual appreciation of a form of art, and that this more cerebral pleasure can't complement the pleasure attached to one's more immediate responses. But in the case of film, this didn't work for me. Maybe that's the difference between you and some of the other posters on this thread, Mike?

I don't think either approach is wrong. Think of another example - driving a high spec car. Do you need to be an expert mechanic with a thorough knowledge of the engine to enjoy the ride? No - but for some individuals, it might add another layer to the pleasure of the experience.

Me, I'd like to understand more about how classical music works - but I doubt that that knowledge would add to the visceral pleasure I get listening to great music on a good system.

Finally, it's not surprising some people have posted as they have. This is, after all, the Naim forum, where the subjective experience and pleasure of listening to music is strongly favoured over the more objectively measurable properties of "kit").

Regards
Nigel

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

For me personally, you have answered your own question.
Jeff A[/QUOTE]
Jeff, that is an absolutely perfect example of a cheap shot.[/QUOTE]

I do the best I can within my limited abilities.
Jeff A

Everyone has a different standard they apply to music. If you don't like calling it a standard, be more honest - call it habit.

I think mine is very simple. If I can comprehend each piece of music I hear as it was intended, then my enjoyment will be manifold. That is the same habit we share in language. So I expect music to behave like a language, which it does.

Not being able to do something is a limitation.
Understanding the meaning of the words makes the play more interesting.

How much of it all can you take in? What are you willing to settle for?

At the moment, my appetites are large. That won't last forever. Might as well indulge it while I can :-)

quote:

Not being able to do something is a limitation.
Understanding the meaning of the words makes the play more interesting.

Assume this was intended for me, Mike? Anyway, on the first point, yes, but not all limitations are equally limiting, when considered in the light of our aims and objectives. I can't unicycle, and this is a limitation, but it is not one I care to address because it's unimportant in the context of the life I wish to lead. For me, my spiritual and emotional response to music is paramount. I am not convinced that having a greater intellectual understanding of the mechanics of music would add to this - though I do not rule it out.

The analogue of understanding the meaning of words in the musical context is open to debate, but I'll wager it falls well short of the deeper intellectual appreciation you aspire to. Something like being to one note from another, and how they sit rlative to each other in a scale is more like it - and I dare say most of us have that level of understanding - otherwise, why listen in the first place.

I'm not anti-intellectual by any means - but thinking aloud on the forum, I find myself wondering how much bearing intellectual appreciation has on my enjoyment of music.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Anderson:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

For me personally, you have answered your own question.
Jeff A

Jeff, that is an absolutely perfect example of a cheap shot.[/QUOTE]

I do the best I can within my limited abilities.
Jeff A[/QUOTE]

If you are earning points for being oblique this must be a high score.

God forbid a straight answer ...

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
Now my post was intentionally provocative, I have nothing against understanding the intricacies of music in general as that is interesting to me but I'm quite an intelligent person and its not really rocket science, its when within the musings of the Classical folk on these boards who seem to put this above everything else as regards to music.

Not being able to hear a suspension or a key change doesn't enhance your experience of music. If you can hear it, you'll get more out of listening to music.

If you had the same attitude to-wards the written word, even the Grimms' fairy tales would be beyond your reach.

It's all very crude, with the hint of uninformed hysteria.

Whatever floats your boat.

For myself, I prefer being able to understand whatever music is presented to me. But that's just me.

Mike,


I think we are getting to the heart of the matter, I can hear a key change, harmony, melody, counterpoint, intonation, but I don't need to study to hear it and also that is why I upgrade my HiFi to hear these things in a clearer light. If you read my thread in HiFi corner I mention upgrading my LP12 has given me these insights and brought me closer to what I feel is the artists intention. I think you make the assumption that because people do not study the score or music in general from an academic point of view they do not hear these things, but I assure you they do but maybe cannot put these things into words. Music is many things and you are right in saying that understanding music brings you closer to it but you can, and that is why people buy quality HiFi's, do just that without the need of scores and text books. Its just they do not feel the need to analyse it all the time its natural to them and me.



Dean...

It's very simple for me. If my foot is tapping along to the tune and I am making an emotional connection with the many different types of music that I like, then all is good in the world.

I know quite a lot about the music I listen to but feel zero need to get too intellectual about it by studying rhythm, tones or whatever else others like to do.

I would far rather study and search out where one of my favourite artists is playing their next live gig.

quote:

Originally posted by mongo:
Hi Jeff.

Does this mean that you see music as constantly getting better as time flies by? Or has it more to do with the fact that people are largely more comfortable with whatever they consider contempory? It seems likely that to ignore past efforts is likely to cause a person to miss out on something they may well find to be utterly fabulous. Although as there is so much it is a bloody difficult search without help.

Mongo
I do not see music as constantly "getting better" as time passes, necessarily. I don't tend to think of any music as "better" than any other.

But my tastes change with time and I am not always able to correlate what precipitates those changes of taste.

My evolution, in rather short terms, is developing a love for sound (not in the hi-fi sense) passed to me by my father at a very young age. That was manifested in the music he played and the tastes I developed after his passing when I was quite young.

In my teen years of the sixties, it was about rebellion, questioning authority, and the music I listened to reflected that (San Francisco sound, English invasion, etc).

After college I was exposed to classical (which I had known minimally from music classes and instrument playing in high school). It was sophisticated, challenging, and to a point "high-brow" as Dean relates. But I continued to listen to the current trends of the seventies and eighties and found that music of the likes of Steely Dan, Loggins & Messina, Phoebe Snow, Toto, Seals & Crofts etc was dabbling in elements of jazz I found attractive. Many of the "session" players on this music were jazz musicians trying to make a living in the commercially viable world of contemporary music.

I eventually chose to explore "pure jazz", the greats from Miles to Evans, big bands, smooth jazz and all the variants. I became so absorbed in jazz I actually was passed unknowingly by grunge, Brit pop of the early ninties and the jam band era of later Grateful Dead and their apostles. I was in heaven with music I found challenging and stimulating but started to tire of hearing "standards" played for the millionth time with not a whole lot exciting "added" to it.

In the late nineties, I made the choice to go see an artist who a local reviewer had mentioned that was from the area and working in rock and pop. It was an epiphany at the time, as he was drawing on a lot of music I missed while so absorbed in jazz.

I wanted to know all his influences and who he was listening to. A whole world that extends to this day opened up that would now fall under the umbrellas of singer/songwriter, independent, pop and americana. Stuff that has adapted well to lack of big record companies, empowerment to the artist for more control of his art and income, and a creativity that sounds very fresh to me.

None of these segments are "better" than others, but I am personally pleased with where I am in my listening and methods of exposure to music I am finding near revelatory TO ME at the moment.

I love to watch what the classical lovers listen to (I am curious about Uchida and will obtain some of her interpretations soon). There is knowledge and suggestion that is remarkable and though it hasn't led me on my personal journey, the music is THEM, and I can only love that. The jazz lovers continually draw my attention to what is current and historical in jazz, and again, though I haven't followed those paths too far, it reminds me of parts of my past that I enjoyed very much.

Right now there are numerous people who constantly challenge and urge me to explore new artists and recordings in my current passionate areas. I pay attention to them more closely only because we currently share a common interest but are just a small segment iof this vibrant forum. I find new paths to explore daily and the internet and often this forum are my tools, and the music found is my soundtrack.

My use of "looking forward" was not meant to segment it from all other music other than to say that for me, it is the direction I am currently compelled to follow. I really like what many of the young folks are creating now.

best wishes on your listening journey.

Jeff A