Stereo or surround sound ?

This what I have done and it works well for me.

All stereo sources go straight to the Naim pre amp. All surround sources go to an AV2 (could be any surround pre amp) and the AV2 feeds the front right and left to the Nain stereo pre via the unity gain. That way the surround pre controls the volume of surround sources and the stereo pre controls the voulme of the stereo sources.

On the blue ray use a digital out for surround and line out for steroe. Job done till you save enough for the dac.

Hope this helps.

Rich,

Here is my experience regarding this.

I've been adding a blu-ray player (Pioneer LX-71) in my pure analog stereo system 15 months ago. I obviously let the player do all the decoding and use the analog stereo output to connect it to the preamp. I'd call the result good enough for my needs, as there's no way I'm going multi-channel.

However, 2.0 PCM tracks generally sound WAY better on my system than 5.1 HD tracks do. Much more presence, focus and dynamics.

I'd still go for option 1 though. Or maybe you could try to find a player with outstanding analog capabilities and skip the PCM mix and bypass the use of an external DAC.


Christian

It depends what you want to spend Rich.

Don's suggestion of an AV2 is good because it has great synergy with other Naim kit. If you want to go for surround sound (and I suggest you stick with 5.1 - there are few discs encoded in 7.1) then be prepared to invest in good amps and speakers. Good stereo will always beat mediocre surround sound but if you watch lots of movies then there isn't any substitute for a full, good quality surround system. Subwoofer(s) and centre channel speakers are mandatory & don't let anyone tell you different!

You can use a BluRay with multiple analogue outputs to decode HD surround and feed this to your processor. Depending on the relative quality of the internal DACs you can either do as Don suggests or, if you go for an AV2, which has a pretty good DAC, feed the SP/DIF signal from the BluRay player to this.

I think surround sound at present is dead and I think it will be for some time the best bet is to buy a £1k denon box and bolt it on to a decent two channel set up.

Sorry Neill, that's absolute b*llocks. And "Bolting On" a £1K Denon box is about the worst thing you can do in this situation.

It's stereo for me. Have gone from stereo to multi-channel and now back to stereo. This is because of the nDac. The nDac allows you to hear into the emotion and performance of the player/s. Also, it draws me into the performance similar to a very good multi-channel setup. You can get a really good pair of full range speakers instead of 5 or more lesser ones (that is if your funds are limited). You won't even need a sub-woofer. Less is actually more.

You can setup the BD player to output in stereo both digital and analogue.

notice that all manufacturers that went surround systems have crawled back to audio

a good quality audio setup wipes the floor with surround systems

Stereo here , 5 channel was to much of a fuss with my set up, it sounded crap too.

guess two ears is best

I wish I had a pound for every posting on the Naim forum which states that it's better to go for stereo rather than surround, plus any/all of the following statements -

"Don't need a sub...", "Don't need a centre speaker...", "I added some small speakers...", "haven't got the budget...", "surround sound's dead...", "Not heard a good surround sound...", "I got a surround sound package with my TV..."

I suppose as a predominantly stereo hi-fi forum it's not surprising really. I just get a bit frustrated that very discerning folk are prepared to spend a great deal of time and probably money on setting up their stereo yet believe they can just tack on a few speakers and a decoder and somehow arrive at a satisfactory surround system.

Surround sound's much more difficult to get right, tends to be domestically intrusive, and needs proper investment in matching equipment, including a suitably large and high-quality display.

It doesn't sound like stereo, and for music stereo's definitely preferable, but if you enjoy movies and live music concerts a good surround system is a better experience.

(PS, Where are you SC?)

quote:

I wish I had a pound for every posting on the Naim forum which states that it's better to go for stereo rather than surround, plus any/all of the following statements -

"Don't need a sub...", "Don't need a centre speaker...", "I added some small speakers...", "haven't got the budget...", "surround sound's dead...", "Not heard a good surround sound...", "I got a surround sound package with my TV..."

I suppose as a predominantly stereo hi-fi forum it's not surprising really. I just get a bit frustrated that very discerning folk are prepared to spend a great deal of time and probably money on setting up their stereo yet believe they can just tack on a few speakers and a decoder and somehow arrive at a satisfactory surround system.

Just may be people don't want to/arne't able to spend to match their 2 channel system.
I spent what I considered a lot of money £800+ on my +3 channels . It didn't do what I wanted it to do. I am not prepared to buy the extras the match my main system, as this would be prohibitive, NAIM centre and sub 3 channels amp plus rear speakers. No where to put floor standing rears.
So that's why I listen to movies in 2 channel, the amount of time and expenses is just not worth it for odd times I need to hear gut wrenching explosions or helicopters circling etc to warrant any further investment.

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:

quote:

I wish I had a pound for every posting on the Naim forum which states that it's better to go for stereo rather than surround, plus any/all of the following statements -

"Don't need a sub...", "Don't need a centre speaker...", "I added some small speakers...", "haven't got the budget...", "surround sound's dead...", "Not heard a good surround sound...", "I got a surround sound package with my TV..."

I suppose as a predominantly stereo hi-fi forum it's not surprising really. I just get a bit frustrated that very discerning folk are prepared to spend a great deal of time and probably money on setting up their stereo yet believe they can just tack on a few speakers and a decoder and somehow arrive at a satisfactory surround system.

Just may be people don't want to/arne't able to spend to match their 2 channel system.
I spent what I considered a lot of money £800+ on my +3 channels . It didn't do what I wanted it to do. I am not prepared to buy the extras the match my main system, as this would be prohibitive, NAIM centre and sub 3 channels amp plus rear speakers. No where to put floor standing rears.
So that's why I listen to movies in 2 channel, the amount of time and expenses is just not worth it for odd times I need to hear gut wrenching explosions or helicopters circling etc to warrant any further investment.

small screen big sound. cannot work.

I'm 2ch running a BluRay via coax into a nDAC.

I gave up 5ch for 3ch and then finally ditched the centre for just 2 channel.

In my experience, most of the programme comes out of the centre channel. When I did have the centre channel, it actually sounded better in 2ch mode so I ditched the centre speaker and the AV amp...

Matching the centre speaker with the L/R is crucial. The centre really needs to be of very high quality. The centre channel should not be taken as a 'token' add-on.

Unless you watch heaps of action movies, 5+ch is possibly worth it but a quality 2ch Naim rig is more than fine.

To answer the original question, stereo for me.
Thinking of adding a REL R305 sub-bass sytem to my 2 channel system, but that will enhance music even more than AV. AV receivers are a huge challenge to set up for optimum performance and I have only heard a couple which really made me think "wow, that really is awesome". The remote controls are horribly daunting for the average user too.

quote:

Originally posted by James L:

Matching the centre speaker with the L/R is crucial. The centre really needs to be of very high quality.
Unless you watch heaps of action movies, 5+ch is possibly worth it but a quality 2ch Naim rig is more than fine.

Quite right. But it's not just the centre speaker that needs to be high quality.

Although action movies are a great experience through a good surround system, the most effective use when properly set up is actually with subtle sounds that create a particular surrounding ambience. Stereo is incapable of doing this and for music listening you wouldn't want it to anyway.

Surrround sound's a real challenge, it's expensive to implement properly, and you've got to like movies.

Surround does it for me... but the system was built to be balanced with the 2ch, vinyl driven, setup it was integrated into.

If I had 2 rooms to separate the systems I would consider it.... but I've sucessfully got the movie system I wanted without compromising the music.

The only downside is that when I make my next major change it will be speakers... so if the system stays in the same location I'll be upgrading 5 speakers instead of two (or at the very least making it a front 3 first, rear two next)

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
Sorry Neill, that's absolute b*llocks. And "Bolting On" a £1K Denon box is about the worst thing you can do in this situation.

Why is it though ? only last week there was plans a foot to scrap hdmi because its next to impossible to work with who in there right mind at present is going to drop a lot of money into rather expensive boxes that will quickly need replaced ? Run a decent front end and add on a surround sound option at present its the right way to go with an ever changing market now including 3d to worry about.

Might have escaped your notice but Naim no longer manufacture home cinema equipment.

quote:

Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
Sorry Neill, that's absolute b*llocks. And "Bolting On" a £1K Denon box is about the worst thing you can do in this situation.

Why is it though ? only last week there was plans a foot to scrap hdmi because its next to impossible to work with who in there right mind at present is going to drop a lot of money into rather expensive boxes that will quickly need replaced ? Run a decent front end and add on a surround sound option at present its the right way to go with an ever changing market now including 3d to worry about.

Might have escaped your notice but Naim no longer manufacture home cinema equipment.

I agree with Neill ...

Adding a £1k (or even less) Denon or Yamaha box is a great way to add multi-channel for movies (note I say movies not music). Now I would never want this instead of my 2-channel music system, but as an addition I feel it adds a lot to movies, giving you a more immersive experience. I also feel to get good multi-channel you can spend less as Denon / Yamaha / etc. make great products for the mass market rather than the smaller specialist 2-channel market. It's only when you want to combine movies and music in one box do you have to look at the more boutique manufacturers.

I respect those who feel otherwise, but my opinion is that multi-channel does expand on the movie watching experience (note: I have a projector so this also helps!).

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:

Might have escaped your notice but Naim no longer manufacture home cinema equipment.

Sadly, it hasn't, although the n-Sats and n-Sub are of the highest quality and thankfully still being manufactured. A great pity because the AV2's a superb processor and, although I dislike hyperbole, it really is streets ahead in sheer sound quality from Denon, Yamaha and even Arcam processors. That's why more than a few of us would dearly love to see an AV3...

The market's always changing but the AV2 is IMO still entirely useable as a sophisticated 7.1 processor in tandem with a BluRay player that decodes the HD formats. It'd be nice to do away with the tangles of cables you end up with when using separate amps but the one-box solutions don't cut it for me. I don't want to use HDMI for sound; like Eloise I use a projector & have a video processor which takes the video inputs. No problems with video through HDMI but I've had a few issues with HDCP, which is a complete pain in the bum. And I still think it's b*llocks to suggest surround sound's a dead medium.

Eloise, I'd agree with you on one level, but I was trying in my laborious way to point out that if you want to approach the sound quality available from a good Naim stereo system than you've got to make the necessary investment.
Like yourself I fully understand that people don't wish to go down this difficult road. But me, I'm a movie junkie and if push came to shove I'd sooner part with the stereo.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
The market's always changing but the AV2 is IMO still entirely useable as a sophisticated 7.1 processor in tandem with a BluRay player that decodes the HD formats. It'd be nice to do away with the tangles of cables you end up with when using separate amps but the one-box solutions don't cut it for me. I don't want to use HDMI for sound; like Eloise I use a projector & have a video processor which takes the video inputs. No problems with video through HDMI but I've had a few issues with HDCP, which is a complete pain in the bum. And I still think it's b*llocks to suggest surround sound's a dead medium.

I can't disagree (having never owned the AV2) that it is still a valuable part of a 5/7.1 system. Given the right circumstances I think audio through a good legacy processor can beat HD through a modern AV receiver. I swapped a Rotel RSP1068 for the Yamaha and while there may be some improvement with HD soundtracks, it's not night and day. So unless you have a lot to spend, if you have an AV2 buy a good BluRay player don't swap for a new amp.

I think if I could choose only 2 channel music OR surround then I would choose the 2 channel parts of the system, but I do think even a modest 5.1 system adds to the movie experience.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:

quote:

Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:

Might have escaped your notice but Naim no longer manufacture home cinema equipment.

Sadly, it hasn't, although the n-Sats and n-Sub are of the highest quality and thankfully still being manufactured. A great pity because the AV2's a superb processor and, although I dislike hyperbole, it really is streets ahead in sheer sound quality from Denon, Yamaha and even Arcam processors. That's why more than a few of us would dearly love to see an AV3...

The market's always changing but the AV2 is IMO still entirely useable as a sophisticated 7.1 processor in tandem with a BluRay player that decodes the HD formats. It'd be nice to do away with the tangles of cables you end up with when using separate amps but the one-box solutions don't cut it for me. I don't want to use HDMI for sound; like Eloise I use a projector & have a video processor which takes the video inputs. No problems with video through HDMI but I've had a few issues with HDCP, which is a complete pain in the bum. And I still think it's b*llocks to suggest surround sound's a dead medium.

Eloise, I'd agree with you on one level, but I was trying in my laborious way to point out that if you want to approach the sound quality available from a good Naim stereo system than you've got to make the necessary investment.
Like yourself I fully understand that people don't wish to go down this difficult road. But me, I'm a movie junkie and if push came to shove I'd sooner part with the stereo.

I own an Av2 and I agree it was a great machine sadly things have moved on and whilst the AV2 offers great sound and its sadly bettered now by cheaper set ups. The original Av2 was launched in 2000 and the design whilst cutting edge is now dated and and lesser machines can offer similar if not better surround sound.

What I mean by dead is at this present time the format of surround is dead. Until major issues are sorted then it will struggle to move forward with sadly only one box solutions being the answer. Look at the market when was the last time a decent priced AV pre was launched ?

The Av2 and the Linn Akurate seem to be the only two decent machines I can see in the current market place with one no longer in production. You might also see the Meridian machine g61r as an option as well but you can rule out the bug ridden Arcam range. Other than that its hard to find anything sub 5k that is worth considering apart from the mentioned Denon one box jobs.

I would just like to add rereading my post that I agree with you to an extent but market conditions are dictating the direction at present of home cinema. I don't also see the point in mentioning the n-sat and n-sub it was designed as a sub sat system for two channel music and there is no centre available anywhere in Naims range in fact there are no home cinema products full stop at least Linn to an extent has continued to support the sector by launching the majik centre.

Sadly like I say the market is a little dead in the water just now like all cycles though its time will come again.

I can't tell you what to do, but for me; films NEED at least a centre channel and sub, and music alone is better in stereo.

BTW the growth area for domestic TV seems to be "sound bars" which sit in front of the telly and give centre with L&R front and some surround effect. I actually thought the B&W one sounded pretty good (with a sub).

quote:

Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
I own an Av2 and I agree it was a great machine sadly things have moved on and whilst the AV2 offers great sound and its sadly bettered now by cheaper set ups. The original Av2 was launched in 2000 and the design whilst cutting edge is now dated and and lesser machines can offer similar if not better surround sound.

Actually bettered or just matched?

quote:

What I mean by dead is at this present time the format of surround is dead. Until major issues are sorted then it will struggle to move forward with sadly only one box solutions being the answer. Look at the market when was the last time a decent priced AV pre was launched ?

Well I guess what you mean by decent priced.

Onkyo and Marantz cater to the lower end, along with NAD and Rotel. Higher up is the Arcam (okay you say it's buggy but I think most of those issues are solved), Denon and NAD again. All support HDMI 1.3 and both Bitstreaming and LPCM audio. Meridian's processors are all capable of HD format so long as the player decodes it to LPCM first.

quote:

The AV2 and the Linn Akurate seem to be the only two decent machines I can see in the current market place with one no longer in production. You might also see the Meridian machine g61r as an option as well but you can rule out the bug ridden Arcam range. Other than that its hard to find anything sub 5k that is worth considering apart from the mentioned Denon one box jobs.

Not sure the relevance of the Linn Akurate (and what about Linn's other AV processors) because these, like the AV2 don't support the High Def formats. Meridian G61R with 621 HDMI processor comes in at £5,000. Apart from that we'll have to have different views on what is worth considering under £5k.

Eloise

quote:

I actually thought the B&W one sounded pretty good (with a sub).

Wouldn't mono suit black and white better?

quote:

...don't also see the point in mentioning the n-sat and n-sub it was designed as a sub sat system for two channel music

Much as it upsets me to disagree with you Neil...

The n-series speakers were designed for surround systems. The n-Sub has six presets and three separate inputs, one high & two low, designed specifically for use with the .1 channel of a surround sound processor.

And if you could point me in the direction of a specific processor that betters the sound quality of an AV2 I'll be grateful.

Doc, I've got a Yamaha Sound Bar on my system in our holiday place. It's a remarkably good effect(SWMBO won't let me put in a multi-speaker surround system) with a sub., but it only works over a very narrow listening area. If you sit anywhere but square-on, it sounds most odd!

Howard, I believe in this case doc was in fact referring to the speaker manufactures Bowers and Wilkins, rather than black and white. Hope this clears things up for you.