Stereo or surround sound ?
Posted by: rich2513 on 02 July 2010
I'm on the cusp of buying a blue ray player and also at the same time putting togthere a decent naim music system which will most likely include the new nDAC.
What I can't decide is whether to fit a blue ray player into all of this just as a stereo experience or try and create a surround sound option using existing hardware.
So to expand.
Option 1.
PCM mix from blue ray player (thereby fogoing HD lossless audio quality) piped into a naim DAC via coaxial or optical and then onto my naim/sbl system for a good stereo movie experience
Option 2.
Full surround sound from blue ray (7.1 is it these days ?) taken to a third party decoder of some sort which has preouts. Digital audio into the naim dac and then naim amps for the front 2 speakers. Rear output and sub output (and maybe centre output as well) goes into a separate amplifier or maybe existing amplifier of the decoder and then onto separate speakers.
As it stands, I can't see how there is any other way, Option 1 worries me as I have no idea what the sound quailty will actually be like. And can Blue ray players output 2 channel digital audio ?
Option 2 is complicated and invlves 2 volume controls ! Also, can you ger a decoder or av processor which gives pre-outs for each channel in digital form ? Or do they only give pre-outs after the sound has been through the onboard dac ?
There may be a better way of doing this. Please enlighten me if there is as im a bit confused. I want to make as much use of my existing naim system as possible.
What I can't decide is whether to fit a blue ray player into all of this just as a stereo experience or try and create a surround sound option using existing hardware.
So to expand.
Option 1.
PCM mix from blue ray player (thereby fogoing HD lossless audio quality) piped into a naim DAC via coaxial or optical and then onto my naim/sbl system for a good stereo movie experience
Option 2.
Full surround sound from blue ray (7.1 is it these days ?) taken to a third party decoder of some sort which has preouts. Digital audio into the naim dac and then naim amps for the front 2 speakers. Rear output and sub output (and maybe centre output as well) goes into a separate amplifier or maybe existing amplifier of the decoder and then onto separate speakers.
As it stands, I can't see how there is any other way, Option 1 worries me as I have no idea what the sound quailty will actually be like. And can Blue ray players output 2 channel digital audio ?
Option 2 is complicated and invlves 2 volume controls ! Also, can you ger a decoder or av processor which gives pre-outs for each channel in digital form ? Or do they only give pre-outs after the sound has been through the onboard dac ?
There may be a better way of doing this. Please enlighten me if there is as im a bit confused. I want to make as much use of my existing naim system as possible.
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by BigH47
Thanks Tony what would I do without this place? 
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:Originally posted by tonym:quote:...don't also see the point in mentioning the n-sat and n-sub it was designed as a sub sat system for two channel music
Much as it upsets me to disagree with you Neil...
The n-series speakers were designed for surround systems. The n-Sub has six presets and three separate inputs, one high & two low, designed specifically for use with the .1 channel of a surround sound processor.
And if you could point me in the direction of a specific processor that betters the sound quality of an AV2 I'll be grateful.
Sure Both of the current krell machines, classes machine can't remember the number, Anthems and the Meridian when set up with the right speakers and power amps. None of the options are cheap. I would also add its bettered in surround sound by some of the Denons however it wins the two channel battle in fact fairly a lot can better the Av2 now if you have the money and time to demo.
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by bdnyc
Rich-
To me, the big question is the space available in your home. As some have noted above, the full surround experience can be very compelling, mostly for use on movies, but in some cases, concert DVD releases, which many enjoy. If you could fit a center channel in physically, this is the first hurdle in my mind. If you could, then you will want to weigh the options available to you for a Naim speaker meant to serve as a center channel, which at this time mean a used product, which you may or may not find easily in your market. The close matching of rears to fronts is less important in my experience, but you really need the front speakers to be all well matched for the system to gel.
Another way to go is to set up a theater in a different room, which allows for greater freedom of choice if your theater needs would be more easily met than your audio quality goals. Finally, you can get good results with a two channel theater as you have suggested. This is easier to accomplish in many homes, but would not give you the full immersive effect a true surround sound system can offer you. The guideline I give clients is that good theater is four to five times more expensive than a similarly good stereo, so it can get very costly, but it is worth it for many.
Good luck,
Bruce
To me, the big question is the space available in your home. As some have noted above, the full surround experience can be very compelling, mostly for use on movies, but in some cases, concert DVD releases, which many enjoy. If you could fit a center channel in physically, this is the first hurdle in my mind. If you could, then you will want to weigh the options available to you for a Naim speaker meant to serve as a center channel, which at this time mean a used product, which you may or may not find easily in your market. The close matching of rears to fronts is less important in my experience, but you really need the front speakers to be all well matched for the system to gel.
Another way to go is to set up a theater in a different room, which allows for greater freedom of choice if your theater needs would be more easily met than your audio quality goals. Finally, you can get good results with a two channel theater as you have suggested. This is easier to accomplish in many homes, but would not give you the full immersive effect a true surround sound system can offer you. The guideline I give clients is that good theater is four to five times more expensive than a similarly good stereo, so it can get very costly, but it is worth it for many.
Good luck,
Bruce
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by tonym
quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Both of the current krell machines, classes machine can't remember the number, Anthems and the Meridian when set up with the right speakers and power amps. None of the options are cheap. I would also add its bettered in surround sound by some of the Denons however it wins the two channel battle in fact fairly a lot can better the Av2 now if you have the money and time to demo.
Ok, thanks Neil. I've already listened to the Meridian and so-called "High-End" Denon processor amps and let's just say they're not to my taste. They're probably fine in different systems to mine and with action movies but the Denon sound is very cold and mechanical to my ears. Guess I just love the Naim sound.
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:Originally posted by tonym:quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Both of the current krell machines, classes machine can't remember the number, Anthems and the Meridian when set up with the right speakers and power amps. None of the options are cheap. I would also add its bettered in surround sound by some of the Denons however it wins the two channel battle in fact fairly a lot can better the Av2 now if you have the money and time to demo.
Ok, thanks Neil. I've already listened to the Meridian and so-called "High-End" Denon processor amps and let's just say they're not to my taste. They're probably fine in different systems to mine and with action movies but the Denon sound is very cold and mechanical to my ears. Guess I just love the Naim sound.
You could add in Lexicon to that and also theta, helcro, Mark levinson and others. I used to own the Meridian G98 Dvd player and tried it with the G68 and to me it was an improvement over the Av2 and DVD5. You could also add Chord Electronics into that and ADA there are many products out there.
I have also heard Denon badly setup and well the set up and like all home cinema this can make a frightening difference.
The Av2 and Dvd5 is a great combo but there is better a lot better out there now.
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by tonym
quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:quote:Originally posted by tonym:quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Both of the current krell machines, classes machine can't remember the number, Anthems and the Meridian when set up with the right speakers and power amps. None of the options are cheap. I would also add its bettered in surround sound by some of the Denons however it wins the two channel battle in fact fairly a lot can better the Av2 now if you have the money and time to demo.
Ok, thanks Neil. I've already listened to the Meridian and so-called "High-End" Denon processor amps and let's just say they're not to my taste. They're probably fine in different systems to mine and with action movies but the Denon sound is very cold and mechanical to my ears. Guess I just love the Naim sound.
You could add in Lexicon to that and also theta, helcro, Mark levinson and others. I used to own the Meridian G98 Dvd player and tried it with the G68 and to me it was an improvement over the Av2 and DVD5. You could also add Chord Electronics into that and ADA there are many products out there.
I have also heard Denon badly setup and well the set up and like all home cinema this can make a frightening difference.
The Av2 and Dvd5 is a great combo but there is better a lot better out there now.
Actually, I consider myself reasonably capable of setting up a surround system.
The American products you mention are very much a matter of taste. It's impossible to audition all makes in the infinite combinations you could have, but I have been rather fortunate, via another forum, to be able to listen to some very serious kit and highly-evolved installations over the years.
One thing I'm certain of - Lexicon is now one of the most over-rated and over-priced companies for AV. Trotting out a list of these companies doesn't really help much for those folks who might want a Naim-based home cinema system.
Meridian are a very competent company but I'm sure you'll agree their products have a distinctive sound, quite unlike Naim.
I don't think we'll agree on this, do you?
Posted on: 05 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:Originally posted by tonym:quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:quote:Originally posted by tonym:quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Both of the current krell machines, classes machine can't remember the number, Anthems and the Meridian when set up with the right speakers and power amps. None of the options are cheap. I would also add its bettered in surround sound by some of the Denons however it wins the two channel battle in fact fairly a lot can better the Av2 now if you have the money and time to demo.
Ok, thanks Neil. I've already listened to the Meridian and so-called "High-End" Denon processor amps and let's just say they're not to my taste. They're probably fine in different systems to mine and with action movies but the Denon sound is very cold and mechanical to my ears. Guess I just love the Naim sound.
You could add in Lexicon to that and also theta, helcro, Mark levinson and others. I used to own the Meridian G98 Dvd player and tried it with the G68 and to me it was an improvement over the Av2 and DVD5. You could also add Chord Electronics into that and ADA there are many products out there.
I have also heard Denon badly setup and well the set up and like all home cinema this can make a frightening difference.
The Av2 and Dvd5 is a great combo but there is better a lot better out there now.
Actually, I consider myself reasonably capable of setting up a surround system.
The American products you mention are very much a matter of taste. It's impossible to audition all makes in the infinite combinations you could have, but I have been rather fortunate, via another forum, to be able to listen to some very serious kit and highly-evolved installations over the years.
One thing I'm certain of - Lexicon is now one of the most over-rated and over-priced companies for AV. Trotting out a list of these companies doesn't really help much for those folks who might want a Naim-based home cinema system.
Meridian are a very competent company but I'm sure you'll agree their products have a distinctive sound, quite unlike Naim.
I don't think we'll agree on this, do you?
I don't see your point Tom tbh Naim don't make home cinema kit anymore so for anyone new coming to the forum they are going to need lists of Kit unless they seek out former Naim products second hand.
meridian unless used in a full digital meridian system sounds very good in a traditional sense. I remember a lad on here used to use a g98 and a g68 with naim amps and b & w loudspeakers to great effect.
I think Naim made a product that sounded very good in the sense of creating atmosphere and in particular with DTS were for some reason it excelled. The only problem with the Av2 is it wasn't the best for steering surround sound effects. Its going to be hard and only time will tell if Naim will make an Av3 and if they do will it have that same sense of atmosphere that the Av2 created? This is maybe the sound you liked ? that you found particularly drew you to the product ? I certainly can't think of any other company who made a processor that created such a sense of being there.
It might turn out that the Av2 was sadly a one of product.
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by tonym
We can only live in hope Neil.
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by rich2513
thanks guys for all the responses.. some interesting reading
I think I will go with the popular choice of a good stereo setup.
I haven't bought a BR player yet but have a very very cheap sanyo dvd player from tescos here and even plugging that straight into the Nac52 using the dodgy analogue RCA outs, the sound I get from the SBL's is actually quite large, airy with a wide soundstade. So in a way it has a compelling surround sound-esque presentation (although just a wall in front of me rather than behind me as well). It certainly does NOT sound like it comes from 2 speakers.My feeling is that once this is all done from a decent BR player and using the digital out then piped through the nDAC it should sound pretty stunning and more than enough for my movie needs.
If anyone has any BR player recommends then please let me know. The sony 370 seems to be all the rage and very very cheap. Apparently it will beat many players up to several times the price so there is no real need to spend much more.
I think I will go with the popular choice of a good stereo setup.
I haven't bought a BR player yet but have a very very cheap sanyo dvd player from tescos here and even plugging that straight into the Nac52 using the dodgy analogue RCA outs, the sound I get from the SBL's is actually quite large, airy with a wide soundstade. So in a way it has a compelling surround sound-esque presentation (although just a wall in front of me rather than behind me as well). It certainly does NOT sound like it comes from 2 speakers.My feeling is that once this is all done from a decent BR player and using the digital out then piped through the nDAC it should sound pretty stunning and more than enough for my movie needs.
If anyone has any BR player recommends then please let me know. The sony 370 seems to be all the rage and very very cheap. Apparently it will beat many players up to several times the price so there is no real need to spend much more.
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by Bananahead
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by rich2513
hmm.. the sony is £100 though so 1/10th of the price
AV moves so fast that I don't think it's worth spending too much
meanwhile things like SBL's and NAP250's have been deliveriing the goods for 20, 30 years or more
AV moves so fast that I don't think it's worth spending too much
meanwhile things like SBL's and NAP250's have been deliveriing the goods for 20, 30 years or more
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
... The only problem with the Av2 is it wasn't the best for steering surround sound effects...
I'm quite suprised you say that Neil - I find the AV2 in my setup here quite eerie in it's ability to still take me by suprise with well placed effects...
Phil
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by bdnyc
Rich-
One aspect of your Blue Ray choice which you may want to consider is this: if you have a recent vintage plasma or LCD TV and the firm which made that model has Blue Ray player options you may want to consider them, particularly if you don't have or want a universal learning remote control. Theater is always harder to use then good simple stereo, and a traditional approach to finding the "best" product often overlooks a synergy in ease of use. The other thing is to see whether a Blue Ray player has coax digital outputs and can output a stereo PCM output to the Naim DAC, which may sound better than using an optical cable, which is the only digital output option on some DVD/BD players.
Good luck,
Bruce
One aspect of your Blue Ray choice which you may want to consider is this: if you have a recent vintage plasma or LCD TV and the firm which made that model has Blue Ray player options you may want to consider them, particularly if you don't have or want a universal learning remote control. Theater is always harder to use then good simple stereo, and a traditional approach to finding the "best" product often overlooks a synergy in ease of use. The other thing is to see whether a Blue Ray player has coax digital outputs and can output a stereo PCM output to the Naim DAC, which may sound better than using an optical cable, which is the only digital output option on some DVD/BD players.
Good luck,
Bruce
Posted on: 06 July 2010 by David Dever
quote:Originally posted by Rockingdoc:
I can't tell you what to do, but for me; films NEED at least a centre channel and sub, and music alone is better in stereo.
BTW the growth area for domestic TV seems to be "sound bars" which sit in front of the telly and give centre with L&R front and some surround effect. I actually thought the B&W one sounded pretty good (with a sub).
Agreed - I find 3.1 to be pretty convincing, for purposes of scale and for seamless sound pressure across the front.
On the other hand–I also think quad music surround is pretty cool when set up properly. What to do...?
Posted on: 07 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:Originally posted by Phil Harris:quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
... The only problem with the Av2 is it wasn't the best for steering surround sound effects...
I'm quite suprised you say that Neil - I find the AV2 in my setup here quite eerie in it's ability to still take me by suprise with well placed effects...
Phil
Phil
The Av2 creates a sense of atmosphere and draws you to the movie which is a lovely effect but I owned a Tag before the Av2 got word Tag were in trouble so moved it on. The difference is night and day the tag moved effects round the room at a completely different pace to the naim. It never had that same ability though to completly lose your self in the film which the Naim does. However the tag pinged effects around the room at a completely different level it really depends what you like I guess.
Just a quick example take Gladiator and the open scene where he goes into the colosseum there is a guy in the centre swinging a club or something with the Naim you hear slightly more crowd and the club seems to be there but with the tag the club swinging was the centre piece of the scene you actually felt the club swing past your head it just wasn't the same with AV2 so like I say it depends what you want from Home cinema.
Tag as a company had the right idea they just priced themselves out the market without getting properly established.
Also Phil to point out I have owned the Tag, Meridian G98 dvd player and a Unidisk 2.1 dvd player I now run the Av2 and DVD5 I have tried krell home cinema and meridian and Linn. The Av2 more than held its own and is a great product.
Posted on: 07 July 2010 by js
The only problem I have with surround is the unused speakers in the room playing along with your stereo sympathetically. Of course most have these in their TVs anyway so other than that, go for it. Buy the best 2 CH system for your needs and then add that reciever or better for the other channels. No Theta, Meridian or AV2 will match the stereo performance of a good Naim 2 ch setup for tunes. Running the front pre of the reciever etc to the Naim vid or aux input is easy enough to run the fronts. You will not be able to use the DAC for surround but I wouldn't worry about it. Just because surround is a second citizen in these circles, it doesn't mean it can't be viable and fun. Perhaps in another generation, we'll be able to get a 5.1 set that competes with the best 2 ch when playing stereo but we're not there yet.
Posted on: 07 July 2010 by GerryMcg
quote:If anyone has any BR player recommends then please let me know. The sony 370 seems to be all the rage and very very cheap. Apparently it will beat many players up to several times the price so there is no real need to spend much more.
If you can stretch to it the Sony 760 Blu Ray player is truly excellent and has on board HD audio decoding. I use this to feed the multi input facility of the AV2 for a sound quality that (surprisingly) beats the DD/DTS decoding of the AV2 by a significant margin.
The video performance of the 760 is also exceptional.
Posted on: 07 July 2010 by tonym
quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:.. I owned a Tag before the Av2 got word Tag were in trouble so moved it on. The difference is night and day the tag moved effects round the room at a completely different pace to the naim. It never had that same ability though to completly lose your self in the film which the Naim does. However the tag pinged effects around the room at a completely different level it really depends what you like I guess.
Ahh, the good ol' Tag! I also had one which I upgraded to the DP, 7.1 channel etc. etc. and also a DVD32R.
Although I was dead impressed with the room equalisation software, the AV2 left it for dead. Tag were indeed a very innovative company and Udo, the MD, was a clever and helpful chap.
Posted on: 08 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:Originally posted by tonym:quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:.. I owned a Tag before the Av2 got word Tag were in trouble so moved it on. The difference is night and day the tag moved effects round the room at a completely different pace to the naim. It never had that same ability though to completly lose your self in the film which the Naim does. However the tag pinged effects around the room at a completely different level it really depends what you like I guess.
Ahh, the good ol' Tag! I also had one which I upgraded to the DP, 7.1 channel etc. etc. and also a DVD32R.
Although I was dead impressed with the room equalisation software, the AV2 left it for dead. Tag were indeed a very innovative company and Udo, the MD, was a clever and helpful chap.
Depending what you mean left it for dead the tag was miles better imo at moving of effects the Naim created a fair better sense of being there for me. The Naim was a better two channel pre. Like I said Tom a matter of taste both are sadly no longer available.
Although Tag did seem to be pushing ahead like you mention with fantastic ideas regarding software its a pity they still aren't around in a sense.
Posted on: 08 July 2010 by rich2513
quote:Originally posted by GerryMcg:quote:If anyone has any BR player recommends then please let me know. The sony 370 seems to be all the rage and very very cheap. Apparently it will beat many players up to several times the price so there is no real need to spend much more.
If you can stretch to it the Sony 760 Blu Ray player is truly excellent and has on board HD audio decoding. I use this to feed the multi input facility of the AV2 for a sound quality that (surprisingly) beats the DD/DTS decoding of the AV2 by a significant margin.
The video performance of the 760 is also exceptional.
thanks.. slightly confusing as the online reviews state that the sound and pic quality of the newer 370 is better
the budget end of the blu ray market seems to be very very competitive and extremely good value for money
Posted on: 08 July 2010 by tonym
Tag=Cold, clinical sound. AV2=lovely Naim sound. Synergy with the all-Naim components. Simples!quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Depending what you mean left it for dead the tag was miles better imo at moving of effects the Naim created a fair better sense of being there for me. The Naim was a better two channel pre. Like I said Tom a matter of taste both are sadly no longer available.
Tony.
Posted on: 08 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:Originally posted by tonym:Tag=Cold, clinical sound. AV2=lovely Naim sound. Synergy with the all-Naim components. Simples!quote:Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Depending what you mean left it for dead the tag was miles better imo at moving of effects the Naim created a fair better sense of being there for me. The Naim was a better two channel pre. Like I said Tom a matter of taste both are sadly no longer available.
Tony.
So what I said earlier then.
Posted on: 09 July 2010 by GerryMcg
quote:thanks.. slightly confusing as the online reviews state that the sound and pic quality of the newer 370 is better
Are you sure this was not compared with the 360. The 760 won product of the year in What HiFi and Home Cinema Choice in 2009, it has the same video processing as the £1100 S5000.