Too Loud

BH

what is your power amp?

Herman

That shouldn't make much difference though should it ??

Nana

Yes, mine too. My system is CD3.5, pre72, power140 and SBL. At 7 o'clock position the volume is already loud. 8 o'clock is almost impossible. This is most unusual considering that the resting position is 6 o'clock.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bananahead:
That shouldn't make much difference though should it ??

Nana

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I'm afraid it does, B'Nana. If your power amp gets bigger 'n' better you can have the same level of decibels sounding less loud, i.e. distorted.

The other factor, obviously, is the room the msic occurs in. If you're in a tiny room, nine o'clock is already decibel auschwitz

I have a NAP 180 too, by the way. So it's not like I'm saying it's a piece of crap.

Herman

So what ARE you saying Herman?

snigger

Check the specs. Note that the voltage gain for the various amps is specified at 29 dB and input impedance is 18 Kohms. This would indicate that a given input will result in the same output whether one is using a 90 or a 500, as long as the amps are operating within their limitations. (That is, a 500 will play cleanly for signals that would cause the 90 to clip and otherwise distort.)

How big is your room? In a small room, the volume pot could have too quick an increase.

Phil

My speakers are Neat Petites which I don't think are the problem.

My room is about 6 by 8 meters so is big enough that it should be okay.


Nana

7-8 o'clock is my listening area when playing CDs. 9 o'clock vinyl.

82 into 250

Sensitivity of speakers

Here are some examples - Assumption - I think that most speakers are rated at 2.83v @1m at 1khz in anechoic conditions. Sometimes quoted as 1w@1m but this is the same:

B&W 600 series 2
601 88db; 602 90db; 603 90; 604 90; 605 91

B&W 800
801 91; 802 91; 803 90 804 89; 805 88

KEF Reference Model 4 92db
Model 3 91db
Model 2 90 db
Model 1 89db

Naim NBL and DBL 92db - ouch very sensitive - watch the volume control
Naim SBL 88db
Naim Intro Credo Allae SL2 89db

Linn Kaber 87db
Linn Keilidh 92db
Linn Tukan 87db

my speakers 96db

OK I know that sensitivity is not the whole story but it may be some guide. For more information see:

speakers sensitivity and other stuff

Terry

Hi all:

This is interesting that many have the volume issue. Personally, I don't. I'm vinyl only (as a species I'm nearly extinct, - perhaps the BBC and The Discovery Channel will team up again to do a documentary on me). Comfortable listening for me is *at least* 10 o'clock and usually between 11 and 1.

My room is a dedicated 20'x15'x10', so not huge. I have found two things that make a big difference to both the perceived volume and to enjoyment. the first is predictably, speaker placement and listening position. This affects the second, which is that the for ultimate satisfaction, the system has to be loud enough to 'drive' the room. virtually all of my records have a volume setting(*) where the system/room just 'works'. Going past this level, things get louder but not better, below and it's good but no visceral grunt.

The thing is that these seemingly outrageous volume control settings are certainly not desperately loud. So, my advice? Experiment with room arrangements.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

(*) Bat Out Of Hell can never be played loud enough, irrespective of system or venue ;-)

quote:

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Originally posted by plynnplynn:

I think that most speakers are rated at 2.83v @1m at 1khz in anechoic conditions. Sometimes quoted as 1w@1m but this is the same:

Terry

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No it's not the same. It is only true if the speaker is 8 ohms. This is rarely the case.
The only way to compare speaker sensitivity is the figure at 2.83v; at 1W, a 4 ohms speaker's sensitivity will be boosted by 3 dB.

And the mesurement is not made at 1KHz, but it is made with a band limited white noise.

Emmanuel

All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.

I have the same problem with Kan's at the end of my Nait-2.
I thought this problem would be history as soon as I'd get the Kan's but no way...

With the same volume setting ( 9 o' clock max!) the music is just as loud on my (83/84db!) Kans the it was on my previous Monitor-Audio (89db)speakers.

Greetings,
Alco

...(into 2 x 160s) and have noticed this "problem" in the past a bit, sort of. In our particular case, (YMMV, etc., tin hat on) a little bit of Mana under the source fixed it completely, and provided other benefits to boot (removed harshness and glare, increased subtlety, softness, etc.).

Also, the volume knobs sometimes work loose on their spindles (albeit not as often as the input selector) -- this may seem very prosaic, but can really stuff up perceptions of volume. Check those grub screws under the tyre!

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Marvelous, I wondered how long it would be before some joker would suggest mana would solve the problem. Perhaps if everyone at the World summit had sat on Mana seats we would all be in a safer place. Mana can prevent 'weapons of mass destruction' escallation you know!.

Of course most of these circuits were designed before CDP's existed and the main source for decent sound was low output moving coil cartridges, Phono stages boosted these to a certain extent but the basic preamp circuits also did their bit. For CDP's the preamp essentially attenuates the signal (plus buffering etc, I'm not suggesting a passive preamp here). Therefore the usable volume range is much lower down the range and rather compressed when compaired to phono. Of course this range varies with different speakers and room sizes but everyone will experiance this to some degree.

This then forces the question. Why don't Naim (and all other manufacturers) produce less gain on their standard preamp inputs. I don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure it would benefit most people.

The Naim Fairy Godmother has granted your wish (already!). The 5 series pre-amps feature adjustable gain for each input channel.

David

Having moved from Nait 2, to 72/180 to 82/2*135, I can understand your issues. I found the Nait 2 and less so the 72 had quite poor linearity when trying to play at low volume levels. The 82 was a god send, not only sounding better but also having a very linear response.

Go on buy one, you know it makes sense

Not sure if this applies but ...

In my 72 I have variable boards on the CD channel (I swear it makes the sound worse but not sure if it would help to remove the boards and solder the cables back together but thats another matter ...). If you have these then turning the gain down to minimum may help.

Andrew

Banannahead, your solution is at hand.

You need: a black T-Shirt, and loads of angle iron. If nothing else, you'll realise that playing it LOUD is expected behaviour. Harden up man! Before you go buying quadraspire and removing all the ferrous materials from your house! manamakasense.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Rico,
Does it make a difference if the T-shirt has long or short sleeves? Are there any merits in trying black versus blue jeans?

Ed

I should really have known better than to reply in a manner which had any chance of being considered psuedo scientific. Just asking for contradiction in this Forum - but I did try to 'lighten' my input to ensure that nobody could think I was trying to provide anything other than the roughest of guides. I pointed to a URL which contains a short intro to the topic - I hoped that that would further illustrate my intent.

Given the discussion topic I thought that it would be interesting to throw in lists of sensitivity 'numbers' for ranges of speakers to let people take the discussion further. (eg note SBL 88 and NBL 92). I am sure there are a number of (wealthy) people in this Forum who could comment on differences with SBL and NBL and their relative sensitivities.

Emmanuel: "No it's not the same. It is only true if the speaker is 8 ohms. This is rarely the case."

This issue is covered with complete clarity in the URL I offered. It is even illustrated in simple calculations.

Emmanuel "And the mesurement is not made at 1KHz, but it is made with a band limited white noise."

Again this issue is covered with complete clarity in the URL I offered - 400-3000Hz with bandlimited pink noise is quoted there - with a health warning. But as an aside check the Linn site and see how they specify sensitivity now. Kabers used to be specified at 97db for 1w at 1m (1kHz). The bandwidth issue is of course important. I was trying to provide data to be interpreted and discussed.

Terry

Much better, if a bit uncomfortable.

Now if only there was a knob marked "Treble".


Nana

quote:

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The 5 series pre-amps feature adjustable gain for each input channel.

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The 112 has. According to HiFi+ the 552 hasn't. We'll have to wait and see what the new stuff offers.

Steve B

Ed asked

quote:

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Are there any merits in trying black versus blue jeans?

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Of course! Black jeans come with a bonus grimy V8, whereas Blue Jeans merely come with a pair of sneakers. Blue Jeans (as per non-ferrous stands) are more socially acceptable, and endear the wearer with more social grace and less zeal.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Rico,
The sneaker point is very apt. I have seen some types (weenie boys, obviously) wear them with black denim which is a very round earth attitude.

OTOH, a stout pair of "Docs" will go with either blue or black. Docs are the ultimate in "flat earth" footwear.

Back on topic, this loudness issue is one I have learned to live with, applying to all the amps I have owned, Naim and non-Naim. 10 o'clock is the most I get to with 72/250 or 12 if 72/140. I use it as an excuse to play loud, which my wife doesn't object to but the kids, strangely, do

The idea of level matching inputs is of enormous appeal but not enough to make me swap to 5 series (not yet anyway).

Regards,
Ed.

My non-Naim pre has a volume range from 0-100. It is currently playing at 62 on CD. This is 'loud' but quite common. I don't use Mana, I do sometimes wear black jeans with black t-shirt.

An equivalent volume on LP would be about +10, or 72.

I quite often end up playing quietly at 35-45.

Such are the pleasures of a knobless existence...

My recollections of my Naim days are of using 10-12 o'clock with vinyl. Perhaps you all do play too quietly? In which case an attenuator is in order. I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to attenuate the CD input 'transparently'. IIRC the Naim adjustable boards may have had some sort of (now) unnecessary filtration?

Paul

Paul,
That's one hell of a confession to make on here! To admit to owning non-Naim and being knobless as well. This is just the kind of ammunition some people need to reinforce their views that Naim is the only solution. (But then again I suppose it is Naim's forum...)

Sorry, I appear to have suffered a "Finbar Saunders" moment and did not mean to cause offence, honestly .

Regards,
Ed.