How to avoid wasting money on poor quality recordings?

Phil,

Your system should get the best from all recordings. I've got some shockers in purist terms but the music wins through.

If your set-up renders them unlistenable, maybe something is amiss.

Steve

your dreams are answered.

www.stevehoffman.tv - the place to identify the best recordings. Warning this web site is bad for wallet!

quote:

Originally posted by KT66:
your dreams are answered.

www.stevehoffman.tv - the place to identify the best recordings. Warning this web site is bad for wallet!

Excellent link! - am I missing something?, how can I buy these recordings?


Cheers

Sod it, just buy a TT.



Sanch

Hi Phil,

It's easy to simply blame the recordings, but in the end if you are filtering out great music simply because your system can't play it back in an enjoyable fashion, what's the point?

I'm in agreement with Steve. Sounds like you need to investigate your system setup, room acoustics, etc..

Good luck,
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by billgpdx:
Hi Phil,

It's easy to simply blame the recordings, but in the end if you are filtering out great music simply because your system can't play it back in an enjoyable fashion, what's the point?

I'm in agreement with Steve. Sounds like you need to investigate your system setup, room acoustics, etc..

Good luck,
Bill

Bill, Steve,

thanks for yor advice.

I am trying to sort out my system (CDX2/202/HICAP2/NAPSC/200/WB Discovery) and have sought advice on the Hi-Fi Forum. I've made some adjustments to my system which haven't helped much but have got a few other things to try. If it doesn't work out then I'll have to try a different CDP.

Some recordings sound good but the vast majority don't


Sancho P

Out of frustration with CDs I am just in the process of bringing my LP12 back to life and even with the (very) old cartridge etc it sounds better in many ways than CDs.

I have just bought a new cartridge and am about to get a new phono stage and am optimistic about the results. This may be the answer but I'm not sure I really want to start buying vinyl again after all these years - probably 10 years since I bought an LP...

I couldn't buy music based on recording quality; I'd miss out on too much. I find my Naim set-up allows me to enjoy some pretty ordinary recordings. The chance of finding a re-master of Tintern Abbey's sessions or even asking Probe Plus to re-release HMHB's Back in the DHSS as an Original Master Recording is not likely to happen, but to miss out on these because of record quality would by tragic. Fortunately, I don't have to - as the Naim system renders these superbly; better the system, better the rendering of such classics.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I couldn't buy music based on recording quality; I'd miss out on too much. I find my Naim set-up allows me to enjoy some pretty ordinary recordings. The chance of finding a re-master of Tintern Abbey's sessions or even asking Probe Plus to re-release HMHB's Back in the DHSS as an Original Master Recording is not likely to happen, but to miss out on these because of record quality would by tragic. Fortunately, I don't have to - as the Naim system renders these superbly; better the system, better the rendering of such classics.

ROTF, unfortunately, I've found the opposite in that my Naim CDP setup has made me enjoy listening to a lot of music less. Yes, there are some very good things about it but there's a pervading harshness and lack of tonal colour especially in the mid-range which makes it irritating. As I mentioned, I'm trying a whole range of tweaks and improvements to try to sort things out but its quite frustrating when the opposite to what you might think happens. For example I moved the CDX2 to a simple wooden table instead of the Fraim and some of the mid-range harshness goes away!

I thought your thread on Prog Rock was great by the way!

Is there a source that would tell you which pressing of an album or cd release is considered the best in terms of recording quality?

Phil,

I sympathise with your problem, but I agree with ROTF, Steve and Bill - technical problems with certain recordings are best addressed by looking to your system. As a classical fan (and jazz), if I shut out recordings which had been badly made a whole world would vanish - there would be little Furtwangler and one could forget about some of the fine 50s Bayreuth Ring cycles. Indeed, one of the latter is probably about the worst recorded disc I own (very tinny at times) - but my system gets the music out and I only really notice it when I put it on my ipod. I can honestly say I've never parted with a CD for issues of recording quality - it's only ever the music.

Sadly I can offer no advice on your system, having no experience with any of the components, but a good dealer will be able to help you out - I really hope you get it sorted, because I know I couldn't bear it if my system rendered bad recordings intolerably.

regards, Tam

Thanks, Tam.

Maybe the vinyl route will turn out to be a better one for me. There are very few recordings a can't listen to on my LP12 but dozens I can't listen to on the CDP..

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I couldn't buy music based on recording quality; I'd miss out on too much. I find my Naim set-up allows me to enjoy some pretty ordinary recordings...

ROTF, somehow I missed the fact you'd scored a 555PS. Bodacious!

Phil,

That CDP doesn't work for everyone, it doesn't do it for me - sounding a tad hard at times. Not all the time, but enough for me to "listen for it". I'm not knocking the player it just doesn't do it for me in the ways that you describe.

Check for an overly bright listening room - have you a lot of hard surfaces? It may benefit from some rugs/soft furnishings. Also, try get a listen to the CD5, CDS2 or 3, they have a much more analogue sound to my ears (and many others).

Your CDs should sound fine once you address that. I'm constantly surprised at how good some of the older (1930's) Robert Johnson can sound despite the age and recording quality.

Regards,

Steve

Room tuning, or system positioning is well worth examining (and if memory serves, it's been a while since I spent much time in there, there have been some fine threads on the subject in the hi-fi room). However, another issue worth broaching is that naim might not be for you (heresy, I realise, here but it is true that all our ears are different and while naim delivers magic to those of most here, it isn't universal - might I suggest you take a listen to some of Linn's offerings before giving up on the silver disc entirely). Then again, if you're happy with vinyl, maybe stay with that - the most important thing is that you're enjoying the music and whether someone does that with an lp12 a cd5x or £50 mini system is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. Personally I struggle a little with vinyl - much of mine (inherited through the family) is not blemish free, it takes up a huge amount of space, and I've had poor experiences buying new stuff - that said, when it does work the sound is something else..... ah, if only we could have the ease of CD and the sound of vinyl.... ah, but a man can dream...... [wistful smiley]

regards, Tam

PhilP
I think Tam maybe onto something. I did a quick boo on Hi-Fi Corner and noted your many posts regarding system brightness and system changes.

This hobby is (or should be!) about the music. I can attest to having spent way too long in audio hell where I was unable to listen to a large part of my CD collection due to feeling the recordings were overbright and not the least bit pleasent to listen to.

Fortunatly all that changed recently(addition of Spendor S3/5's) and I can now go through my CD collection and at random pick out a recording (Sleater Kinney to Neal Young to Peter Bellamy to Fournier to Chet Baker to George Jones to Raveonettes) and cue it up (on my CD5!) and sit back, close my eyes and be taken away as only music can transport us. My mojo is back big time!

Just a testimonial to hang in there and always remember the equipment needs to serve the music...no matter how poorly it may or may not be recorded...not the other way round!

Best of luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Lavantha:

Just a testimonial to hang in there and always remember the equipment needs to serve the music...no matter how poorly it may or may not be recorded...not the other way round!

Best of luck!

Cheers Lavantha, thanks for the encouragement. It really is a hellish experience at the moment and I was hoping buying a new Naim system would be an easy upgrade! I've had 3 Naim amps over the past 25 years and had no problems at all. Now I own a Naim CDP for the first time the system is often un-bearable. Anyway, I think I've run through quite enough 'tweaks' now and something more drastic is required. I have some time to visit dealers next week and I will arrange borrow another CDPO and also a power amp to see whether that will fix the CD side.

I've never had a problem with vinyl playback and my new purchases - cartridge/phono stage should improve things even further!

Phil

If you can then ask your dealer to let to try a Rega Saturn - although I can't explain why your system is not giving you musical satisfaction as it is, I think you need to try something drastic. If I didn't enjoy the CDX2 so much in my environment then the Saturn would be the CDP I'd choose - it doesn't quite have the energy or incisiveness of the CDX2/555PS, but it is exceptionally musical. If the Saturn and CDX2 do not work then perhaps you are never going to find CD is good enough. Vinyl is different and it doesn't surprise me that you find a good vinyl set-up to be ahead of CD replay.

All the best, Rotf

BTW my ancient "The Attack" elpee sounds really rough on a vinyl player (very compressed), but the re-mastered CD sounds fine on the CDX2/555PS - it sounded lack lustre until I added the PS, but it never sounded harsh: dull if anything. The CDX2/555PS has given me the first insight in to how good "The Attack" could sound. So it is possible for CD to sound great. The Attack featued John Du Cann - later of Andromeda and Atomic Rooster. The chances of me ever seeing the re-master on vinyl are as likely as the Tractor Boys getting automatic promotion: so I just have to get CD right or completely revise my choice of music.

Phil

I haven't dug back through your previous posts on this subject but I do recall them.

My suspicion is basically that you are suffering from an imbalance either in your system set up or in the brightness of your listening environment. Worst case, there could be something wrong with a component.

I have experienced harshness with a few cds played on my cds3 - the Dixie Chicks being a prime example of a cd which sounded completely different in the car. I've no doubt that my listening room is bright.

The addition of Chord Signature speaker cable has filled out the sound considerably, but has introduced other issues. Also, vinyl playback often provides a richer / fuller presentation than cd.

However, an lp12 would be somewhat glossing over the inherent problems you seem to be suffering with your system. As you have bought all your kit new from the same dealer (relying on my memory here so please excuse if I'm mistaken!), the least I would expect is for the dealer to visit your home and analyse the system / room to advise on how to improve matters. This should not by default mean you have to buy yet more Naim boxes - he should be able to optimise your system out as it stands. If he can't / won't help it's really time for a new dealer - not necessarily a new Naim (or other) box. [ I may well have made similar comments previously]

I'm sure you will have read the names of several highly regarded dealers on this Forum who you could approach. Given your problems, if it were me, I would be happier offering to pay one of these guys to visit and review system set up - mighty big talk on my part as I'm not sure whether such a service is available! But no harm in asking.

Hope you manage to have this problem sorted out soon.

Peter

I also find some CDs un-listenable at home due to crap quality. I appreciate the arguments that better hi-fi lets the music flow, but I just can't cope with flat, compressed recordings. However, they do sound prety good in the car (using Phoenix Gold amps & EQ, Polk speakers and JL sub etc etc).

Knowing how good my system can sound with great recordings I get impatient with CDs that don't come up to the same standard.

I believe in the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy. I've come to accept that part of my CD collection is for car use only. My system sounds awesome, but crap productions sound crap - regardless of whether the music is flowing or now.

Graham.

ROTF, northpole,

thanks for your suggestions. I'm sure you can probably guess that I'm now getting a little bit p*****d off with the whole situation, especially as I don't have a lot of time in the day or at weekends to get this sorted. I'm sure it would be wise to get another dealer in to try to help and may well follow this course.

You both make some interesting points:

quote:

Originally posted by northpole:
However, an lp12 would be somewhat glossing over the inherent problems you seem to be suffering with your system.

I agree that the LP12 is a far more forgiving source - which is often the sign of a 'better' component. The CDP is clearly a more dynamic than my current low-specc'd LP12 but there aren't many LPs I can't listed to whereas I have plenty of v. poor CDs.

It's interesting that Chord Signature has caused you some issues as I've had several recommendations of Chord Epic which, I understand is similar in many ways.

ROTF - I'm glad you have found one CD that sounds better than vinyl (joke...). I really did like the Prog Rosk thread!

Hi Phil,

Best of luck to you. I can't imagine not having both LPs and CDs to choose from when it comes to enjoying music. I hope that you will soon be able to look forward to buying a new CD simply because of the music it contains and not because it passes some sort of audio production test.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by PhilP
Rotf - I really did like the Prog Rosk thread!

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Graham Russell:
I also find some CDs un-listenable at home due to crap quality. I appreciate the arguments that better hi-fi lets the music flow, but I just can't cope with flat, compressed recordings. However, they do sound prety good in the car (using Phoenix Gold amps & EQ, Polk speakers and JL sub etc etc).

Knowing how good my system can sound with great recordings I get impatient with CDs that don't come up to the same standard.

I believe in the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy. I've come to accept that part of my CD collection is for car use only. My system sounds awesome, but crap productions sound crap - regardless of whether the music is flowing or now.

Graham.

I'm with Graham on this one with so many good recordings and good labels out there who take a pride in the products why bother with bad recordings when there's plenty of good stuff to buy. I to get frustrated with poor recordings luckily I don't have many.

I also feel that using the cliche's that "its the music that counts" and "this hobby is about the music" are lazy arguments and has lead us to the situation where better digital products (DVD-A and SACD) get ignored for the convinience of MP3, we as purveyor's of quality sound and music should be saying with our wallets that if the quality is not up to scratch we will not buy it or the quality will be gone forever and there will not be a hobby for us to enjoy. The mainstream music industry is suffering not from illegal downloads but poor quality and uninspiring music. Young people especially boys are now playing computer games not listening to great music like we did in our youth. An interest in HiFi is as much to with music as will the quality of sound and thats what for me is fun about this hobby. Great sound gets you absorbed in a performance and brings the message in the music closer getting more people to understand this might make them demand better quality from record labels and that will benefit us all.



Dean.

quote:

It's interesting that Chord Signature has caused you some issues as I've had several recommendations of Chord Epic which, I understand is similar in many ways.

PhilP

I have a suspicion that the signature cable is great but needs a long burn in period - I had previously commented that it seemed a bit lacking in the top end however last night the new (to me) phono seemed to have settled down significantly and the strings in Menuhin's Bath Festival Orchestra were fantastic and Eva Cassidy (accepted not to everyone's taste!) sounded better than I have yet heard.

So I don't think the sigi cable will be going anywhere fast!!

Incidentally, the phono amp was bought of Definitive Audio in Nottingham and when I called in he kindly asked me to sit in on a short samply of Clap Hands Here Comes Charley by Ella Fitzgerald. The contrast in presentation between my Naim system and his Kondo valve system was extraordinary! I didn't enquire about the cost of the system but it certainly would provide a cure for bright presentation. Really interesting to hear such a system.

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by northpole:

Signature cable ...last night the new (to me) phono seemed to have settled down significantly and the strings in Menuhin's Bath Festival Orchestra were fantastic and Eva Cassidy (accepted not to everyone's taste!) sounded better than I have yet heard. So I don't think the sigi cable will be going anywhere fast!!

Sounds as if you're well up the stairway to (audio) heaven. Congratulations!

quote:

The contrast in presentation between my Naim system and his Kondo valve system was extraordinary!...it certainly would provide a cure for bright presentation. Really interesting to hear such a system.

By coincidence I've just been listening to Ella "The Very Best of the Songbooks" which is an excellent recording (for a CD) her precision, control, emotion etc are amazing. Too bad I never saw her live.

My problem with the Fraim/CDX2/202/200 combination is not that its too bright in fact its almost as if the top end is a little rolled off. Its the harsh, slightly grainy mid-range and thin, tonally anaemic sound that gets me and it's there when I play the Ella recording.

So many people have told me they have similar problems with the CDX2 that my guess is that's probably the main cause of my problems and I'm about to try other CDPs. I'm suspicious that the 200 isn't really that good either so maybe I should try a valve amp.

BTW, my favourite system of all time was LP12/ Naim/Linn Isobariks - maybe I just yearn for the eighties when (generally) recording standards were so much better...

Best wishes,

Philip