New Brandenburg Issue.

I'm a bit confused George. Did you find a new set of Brandenbergs, or Violin Concertos?

Can you provide a suitable search string to find them on Amazon?

Both, and the band is, with many soloists, the:

Orchestra Of The Age Of The Enlightenment.

The Violin Concertos set has yet to come to me.

The issues are on Virgin Veritas.

ATB from George

The Bach Violin Concertos CD recorded by soloists with the Orchestra Of The Age Of Enlightenment came a couple of days ago, and as I suspected from trying out the MP3 downloads these are compelling, and far more convincing than the Brandenburg Concerto issues discussed above, which I have given away - the original CDs and also deleted the recordings from iTunes.

These Violin Concertos have the wonderful fresh elan of seeming new discovery. The three standard Violin Concertos appear with the nineteenth century [Neu Bach Ausgabe] reconstrction of the Oboe and Violin Concerto, a reconstruction of similar vintage and authority of the three Harpsichord Concerto concerto in C, as well as the [authentically originally Bachian arrangement found in the] Triple Concerto for Flute Violin and Harpsichord, and a new transcription of the D Minor Harpsichord Concerto.

The transcription of of Bach's keyboard concertos is not quite so controversial as it might seem before much thought is given to the subject.

Bach wrote many intrumental solo and multi-solo instrument concertos at Cothen earlier in his career, and these, in some instances, survive as in particularly the two solo Violin Conncertos in A Minor and E Major, as well as the Double Violin Concerto in D Minor. That the E Major Violin Concerto also exists in a version in D Minor for Harpsichord as solo instrument - so we have the original and the arrangement in this case [as in some others as well] - shows us something we already know about Bach. He frequently re-used his carefully worked music for other performing forces available at different times by making self-parodies of the works in new forms often not direct trannscriptions, but frequently slightly or even significantly recomposing them along the way. It seems reasonable to assume that all the keyboard concertios were originally composed for other solo instruments.

Arrangening them for these putative original instruments is not really so difficult if we study Bach's practices where the original and Bach's own re-arrangement exist.

Thus the Violin and Oboe Concerto is known only in Bach own re-arrangement for keyboards in an authentic form, but the range of the notes in the solo [harpsichord] voices indicate the original employment of the Oboe and the Violin for the two solos, as does the compositional style.

This can be extended in many cases to other keyboard concerti ...

But these performances do have the unaffected freshness of new discovery - as if these HIP musicians are enjoying exploring the music with their instruments in the image of those of Bach's time. And yes there are felicities that come from the instrument as compared to the modern ones. Musical balances that work without working hard for them, a clarity and dark hued tone that is alien to the modern orchestral string band and may only be obtained with considerable straining for the affect - thus taking attention of the players to sonority and away from expression where the modern instruments are used.

The lightness of touch of the old bows are a joy in that they allow the music's rhyhtms to dance without any sense that the tempi is being forced.

The tempi at least feel moderate, allowing for that bounding feeling of a pulse that is steadily coursing along in majesterial fashion even if the actual beat values are frequently on the virtuoso fast side! The music making feels to have all the space in the world to be expressive.

If I have one tiny grumble is is the use of a conventionally set-up double bass rather than a Violone with its differnt tuning -albeit a bass set up with gut strings such as I used to play.

The modern double bass is tuned in fourths with the fourth string tuned to E as a bass guitar. The Violone is tuned with D as the bottom string and the next interval being a fourth to G, and then some choice possible but next either a fourth or major third, and the rest as Forths to a top string again of D two octaves above the bass string.

What significance does this have, you may ask?

Well the Violone is a very sonorous instrument in certain keys where the open strings resonate gloriously on the major notes of significance in the scale, and all the Baroque composers knew how to write a bass line for the Violone.

It also happens that the top string is a fourth higher than the modern double bass, and so far less left hand position shifting is required, and the instrument is correctly fretted not fretless, so the left hand has a much easier time of it.

The whole sound world of the Violone is clearer, and more focussed than the double bass, and because it is strung with lighter strings, it is also more articulate without strain compared to the double bass set-up [the actual bodies of the instruments are the same in reality] in the same way a harpsichord is easier compared to the piano.

Of course the same degree of articualtion is possible on the piano or double bass as their correct predeceasors the harpsichord or violone, but in the process the result can beome rather muscular and insistent.

The excess of muscularity in the bass line with a double bass is not entirely avoided here, though it is a fairly minor irritant.

In the Brandenburgs from the OotAoE the tempi were generally too fast for the msuic to breath naturally, and this only served to emphasis something that is known to scholars - the degree to which the double bass or violone should be playing at all in these Six great pieces, for the result becomes unduly emphatic, if not a scramble, with such competent players.

So to return to my still favourite performances of the Brandnburgs [long deleted and also issued as are the OotAoE on Virgin] by the Linde Consort from 1979/80 recordings [thus more than a decade older] is a relief indeed. The scale of music making seems epic in comparison! A clear understanding of the relationship of tempo and long term pulse give these performance a feel of timelessness that allows the music to lift one to the cosmos.

The String band is based on the sure foundation of the Violone, which is as correct and expressive in its way as the harpsichord is compared to a piano in Bach's non-Organ keyboard words - effortlessly right and presenting the musical lines without strain.

Linde's tempi are only a notch steadier than those of the OotAoE, and this notch is significant for the tempi seem so just that one makes no note of them at all in the musical performance till it is over. The music itself is all that is left, and as I noted already, it has the ability, in a truly great performance such as this one, to lift the auditor to the cosmos ...

ATB from George

Correction:

quote:

Bach wrote many intrumental solo and multi-solo instrument concertos at Cothen earlier in his career, and these, in some instances, survive as in particularly the two solo Violin Conncertos in A Minor and E Major, as well as the Double Violin Concerto in D Minor. That the E Major Violin Concerto also exists in a version in D Major [not Minor] for Harpsichord as solo instrument - so we have the original and the arrangement in this case [as in some others as well] - shows us something we already know about Bach. He frequently re-used his carefully worked music for other performing forces available at different times by making self-parodies of the works in new forms often not direct trannscriptions, but frequently slightly or even significantly recomposing them along the way. It seems reasonable to assume that all the keyboard concertios were originally composed for other solo instruments.

Sorry about that. George

Yes these are all good versions and all recommendable in my view, even as a sole version to have.

It is a huge shame that the Linde set [of the Brandenburgs] - so well loved by those who have it - has been out of circulation for so long.

Certainly not the newest, but just as certainly not eclipsed.

But I do very much like this new [to me] Violin Concerto set from the OotAoE as well. Definately runs happily beside Oistrak, Grumiaux and Busch for me. They are are all able to bring out different facets of this great music, and there is no real pecking order in my view.

ATB from George

Das Hamburger Kammerorchester ~ Harry Newstone

Friedrich Wuhrer: Leader
Fritz Poth: solo viola
Martin Ledig: 2nd solo viola (no.6)
Barna Bertholty: solo cello
Hans Roder & Erwin Grutzbach: viola de gamba
Gertrud Weitz: solo flute
Holger Villers: 2nd solo flute (no.4)
Heinz Nordbruch: solo oboe
Heinrich Keller: 1st horn
Gerd Haucke: 2nd horn
Karl Grebe: harpsichord (no.4)
Waldemar Dohling: harpsichord (no.5)

Is there anyone above of any notoriety? : )


~<>~

Hello George,

just a quick note to say that these two (30p each) charity shop records are a joy to play. I listened to all 4 sides, 3 times over the past few days. Very passionate playing, with many fine solo performances. I don't know anything about Harry Newstone or the Hamburger Kammer Orchester, except here they are certainly not performing for a chore.
Some surface noise on the very good but not excellent old vinyl but this disappears almost completely when the music takes over.

I'm not too keen the sorbet myself, but for afters i have an excellent plus condition LP of Bach's Suite no.2 & no.3 ...so you boys may light up a hamlet cigar on the b-side if you so fancy : )

kind regards ~

Deborah

quote:

Originally posted by naim_nymph:
Das Hamburger Kammerorchester ~ Harry Newstone

Friedrich Wuhrer: Leader
Fritz Poth: solo viola
Martin Ledig: 2nd solo viola (no.6)
Barna Bertholty: solo cello
Hans Roder & Erwin Grutzbach: viola de gamba
Gertrud Weitz: solo flute
Holger Villers: 2nd solo flute (no.4)
Heinz Nordbruch: solo oboe
Heinrich Keller: 1st horn
Gerd Haucke: 2nd horn
Karl Grebe: harpsichord (no.4)
Waldemar Dohling: harpsichord (no.5)

Is there anyone above of any notoriety? : )

Certainly there are many. But the most famous of the soloists on this set is one you forgot to mention:

Adolf Scherbaum: trumpet.

Dear Deborah,

Here are the two sets I posted about at the top of this thread:



and



I am afraid Poul knows far more about recordings of the Brandenburgs than I do!

I have a couple of favourite old style performances, which I will dig out the old references to [past posts about] them tomorrow as they can still be had.

It is crying shame that the HM Linde set shown in my battered and cracked CD box above is not out and has been deleted for years!

Dear Poul,

I always look forward to your very rare and nice posts!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
In the Brandenburgs from the OotAoE the tempi were generally too fast for the msuic to breath naturally, and this only served to emphasis something that is known to scholars - the degree to which the double bass or violone should be playing at all in these Six great pieces, for the result becomes unduly emphatic, if not a scramble, with such competent players.

Bachs scoring (in the dedicational manuscript for the Markgraf of Brandenburg) reads in his own hand

Violone grosso for concerto no 1

and

Violone for concertos 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6.

I suppose Violone grosso is a great bass viola da gamba sounding an octave below written pitch.
The meaning of the word Violone for concerti 2 - 6 is more dubious, and some think, that an instrument sounding at the written pitch was meant for some of the concertos. But nothing is known for sure. I think the need of a 16´ bass instrument is more obvious when the ripieno is played by a chamber ensemble (for concertos 2, 4 and 5) scored say 4, 4, 3, 2, 1 and harpsichord. But if the music is played one player per part, I agree that a less bottom heavy instrument might be more convenient, except definitely for concerto no 1 for reasons of balance, and maybe even for concerto no 3. The obvious reason for using a 16´ bass instrument for no 3 is, that an 8´ bass instrument would play in unisono with the three violoncelli, and that would be superfluous. As to concerto no 6 both ways may be suitable depending upon taste..

quote:

The obvious reason for using a 16´ bass instrument for no 3 is, that an 8´ bass instrument would play in unisono with the three violoncelli, and that would be superfluous.

Dear Poul,

As you know this Third concerto is a particular favourite of mine, and I reckon that without a real 16 foot toned violone/double bass then you might as well scrap the part! Not quite so for there are a few passages where the cellos are playing triplets in the finale again crochets in the bass, and in the first movement there are a few bars where the bass literally holds the whole rhythm under the rest of the string parts scurrying about like wild Russian Swordsmen!

I personally like a 16 foot tone for the bass part right through, but it requires a patient sort of player to avoid the chance the the line can become lumpy and emphatic. Really the bass player must accept that the articualtion is much more important than the volume of sound, which will necessarily be less in very short and fast notes. In the first and last movements of the Third concerto really the biggest difference in the possibl;e tone of the bass line is that mostly the last movement bass-line is very fast and made of short notes, and so the line seems less important, because it must be quieter, than the line in the first movement, where the strong beat is often given in the bass, and seemingly it must be both articulate, and firm most of the time. If one applies a similar degree of firmness in the last movement the effect becomes almost comically wooden and stiff.

Also I reckon the bass-line o0f the Fourth Concerto requires [IMO] the 16 foot tone, though the Fifth and Sixth Concertos might well get on nicely without it. Though again the slow movement of the Sixth has two variants of the bass-line moving one part at the pulse of three and one at the double of it [in the cello] and I am not sure how effective that would be if the two versions of the line were not separated by an octave.

That is one for experiment I reckon!

ATB from George

quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
In the Brandenburgs from the OotAoE the tempi were generally too fast for the msuic to breath naturally, and this only served to emphasis something that is known to scholars - the degree to which the double bass or violone should be playing at all in these Six great pieces, for the result becomes unduly emphatic, if not a scramble, with such competent players.


Well, the now twenty years old OotAoE version of the Brandenburgs is certainly one of my favorite HIP recordings of these works. There are som splendid soloists and the air is relaxed and friendly, and I do not feel the tempi rushed. You only need to compare with the contemporary set conducted by Parrott. The more time goes by, the less I like the "turbo baroque" kind of music making, as represented by Goebel, Parrott, Fazolis and others. I have not listened that much to OAE´s Violin concertos and restored Oboe concertos, but IIRC a similar friendly spirit reigns in these.

Dear Poul,

I suppose that I like a little air round the notes in Bach! I very much liked the Violin Concerto performances from the OotAoE though. Very much, and I agree that friendly is apt to say about the music making. I did not get on quite so well with the Brandenburg set though it is nothing like the most driven sets.

You mentioned Reinhardt Goebel! I once many years ago bought the Brandenburgs with Musica Antiqua, Koln led by him! Turbo Baroque! Double Supercharged Le Mans Baroque in that case!

And I cannot deal with Parrott either, so perhaps I just like a set of tempi a notch back from the absolute possible fastest tempo that is still entirely musical.

The strange thing is the more I listened to the old Mogens Woldike set, the more I realised the music could go slightly faster than I would have chosen!

I also suspect that I have an eye on just how playable the bass-lines actually are at any given tempo!

I once had a disagreement with a conductor over this, who wanted a Goebel style tempo for the Third Brandenburg Concerto Finale.

I pointed out that in fact the bass-line [as I could possibly play it] would become meaningless as the notes could not speak in the alotted time. He said that this did not matter as the whole part was in imitation of what had already been stated in the violins.

I then pointed out that the bass-line introduces the new variant that starts the second have [albeit that the cello is playing the same notes], and it is quite a moment if done well with a bass.

He dropped the idea of performing the piece, as I suspect he had not really considered it in a deep fashion, and showed himself up somewhat with the comment in front of quite a few of the orchestra whilst resting over coffee during a rehearsal of another piece on the programme.

ATB from George

Bach fever broke out good and proper again last week when I ordered the OotAoE Brandenburgs and the Violin Concerrtos sets.

After years of hanging round I actually ordered a complete recording of the many keyboard concertos today.

I listened to all the samples on Amazon of the chosen set, and I have no doubt that the pleasure from them will be great.



I have many individuakl recordings but no complete traversal, and in one case I had never actually heard the version for keyboard.

This is the Four Harpsichord Concerto, which is really a transcription of a Vivaldi Concerto for Four Violins, but Bach immensely admired Vivaldi, and made copies of his music to play!

I shall get back to Beethoven and Klemperer in a while [four more CDs of live concerts on Testament or possibly a few more], but I think some instrumental music will come shortly from JSB played by Rachel Podger!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
..there are a few passages where the cellos are playing triplets in the finale again crochets in the bass, and in the first movement there are a few bars where the bass literally holds the whole rhythm under the rest of the string parts scurrying about like wild Russian Swordsmen!

Dear George,

Oh yes, I forgot the few passages, where the violone (and the continuo) has got an independent part. But these bars do not IMO demonstrate the need of a 16´ violone as opposed to an 8´violone per se.

The more I think about this issue (16´or 8´ violone) the more confused I get. In Concerti 1, 3 & 6 the violone plays all through in unisono with the continuo (harpsichord), but in Concerti 2, 4 & 5 the violone has got a little more independent part, and the continuo cello is the one to play in unisono with the continuo harpsichord. But the early version of Concerto 5 (BWV 1050a) is scored without a violoncello and instead the violone plays in unisono with the bass part of the harpsichord except for the solopassages of the harpsichord. Maybe this hints at an 8´violone. And similar to the use of 16´stops in pedal parts of organ music, I think that the most important argument for (or against) a 16´violone is the question of tonal balance. This indicates IMO that an 8´ violone should be used in Concerti 2, 4 and 5 (if the ripieno is played one player per part and even more if period instruments are used), as well as in the first and last movement of 6. I think the problem you memtion, which arises in the middle movement of Concerto 6 is best solved by omitting the violone in that particular movement.

ATB Poul

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
The strange thing is the more I listened to the old Mogens Woldike set, the more I realised the music could go slightly faster than I would have chosen!

I also suspect that I have an eye on just how playable the bass-lines actually are at any given tempo!

On the other hand, when the Brandenburgs are played with a modern instrument chamber ensemble like Wöldike or Marriner, I find the use of a double bass for the violone part mandatory - again for matters of balance. And again similar to the use of 16´stops in organ music the tempo has to be more calm in order to allow the pipes or the bass to speak properly. Any seriously minded conductor should know that.

quote:

..., as well as in the first and last movement of 6. I think the problem you memtion, which arises in the middle movement of Concerto 6 is best solved by omitting the violone in that particular movement.

I think the bass line accorded to the violone is so beautiful in its chaste simplicity that I would cry if I were deprived of it!

I love that line and had a quite serious disagreement with a rather good bass player who thought the whole of the Sixth Concerto is as dull as ditch water for the bass player!

Unfortunately for him I know the line well enough to sing or hum it! Poor man must have thought he was in the company of someone fit for the asylum!

This whole thing about how this old music should be performed to most correctly align with what Bach had in mind is something that gives me one primary wish and that would be to have been a violone player in Bach's small orchestra! The band in the coffee house, the band a Cothen, and the band that played in the Passions and Cantatas. I would not feel deprived if that had been my major cultural influence!

And I bet I would have made sure I was at Church to here him playing the organ as well!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

I listened to all the samples on Amazon of the chosen set, and I have no doubt that the pleasure from them will be great.

Nor have I. This set has been my most treasured set for more than twenty years.

Glad I have chosen well.

The little snippets that can be auditioned were to my ears splendid.

They should arrive in five to ten days, and I will post here a little, and perhaps we can consider a few things in the manner of sitting at the table drinking good coffee, smoking a nice pipe each!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Glad I have chosen well.

The little snippets that can be auditioned were to my ears splendid.

They should arrive in five to ten days, and I will post here a little, and perhaps we can consider a few things in the manner of sitting at the table drinking good coffee, smoking a nice pipe each!

ATB from George

Dear George

Nice idea. Even if I do not smoke, a cup of good coffee always makes me feel well. Or a glas of wine.

ATB (and a good night)
Poul

I have a couple of recordings, the obligatory 1st Pinnock and Perlman/Boston Baroque. Pinnock loved for 10 years.
Earlier in the week I ordered Richter/Municher Bach[sp?] it will be my first non HIP Brandenburg on a proper system - I am excited in anticipation. I own some cantatas from the 1950s by the same ensemble which are very beautiful

Dear Stephen,

Please do write about how you like the new recordings you are getting - here, on this thread, if you like!

I love to find out what other people think of this music!

ATB from George

I've listened to the Richter, concertos 1 and 2 twice [my favourites]. It is a very different experience from my other two recording. First obvious difference is the much faster tempos [tempi?], then these sound like concertos to show off soloists [my other two sound like it is equals playing together], next there is a little lack of clarity coupled with a fuller sound, and finally the trumpet in No 2 is much more like a fanfare - it made me sit to attention.

Bought this download early this morning, looking forward to listening to it later (I think this is one that was being complimented)

Enjoy it!

quote:

Originally posted by pe-zulu:

quote:

Originally posted by naim_nymph:
Das Hamburger Kammerorchester ~ Harry Newstone

Friedrich Wuhrer: Leader
Fritz Poth: solo viola
Martin Ledig: 2nd solo viola (no.6)
Barna Bertholty: solo cello
Hans Roder & Erwin Grutzbach: viola de gamba
Gertrud Weitz: solo flute
Holger Villers: 2nd solo flute (no.4)
Heinz Nordbruch: solo oboe
Heinrich Keller: 1st horn
Gerd Haucke: 2nd horn
Karl Grebe: harpsichord (no.4)
Waldemar Dohling: harpsichord (no.5)

Is there anyone above of any notoriety? : )

Certainly there are many. But the most famous of the soloists on this set is one you forgot to mention:
Adolf Scherbaum: trumpet.

Hello Poul,

it was not i that forgot to mention Adolf Scherbaum, but the SAGA record sleeve omitting any mention of who played the trumpet! (in the no.2).
But apart from the close delicacy of the flute play, i rather like the use of viola's instead of violins, this creates a smooth and rhythmic gate that I find easy to enjoy.

But i have another LP entitled Musique Royale ~ A Concert at the Cothen Court, and the trumpet playing here is much nicer imho than how it is played by who~ever with the Hamburg Chamber Orchestra.
The violin, flute and oboe playing is very impressive, i must admit this is classier. Only the no.2 and no.3 are on this particular LP along with other works of JSB.
Sorry no cover picture, although the sleeve is tatty and has suffered past water-damage, it’s belying a near mint condition record : )

Debs


Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)
A Concert at the Cothen Court

A seite...
1. Brandenburgisches Konzert no.2 F-dur BWV.1047
2. Konzert fur 2 violinen, Streicher und Continuo d-moll, BWV.1043

Adolf Scherbaum trompete
Hans-Martin Linde blockflote
Helmut Winschermann oboe
Rudolf Baumgartner violine
Otto Buchner violine
Kurt Guntner violine

B seite...
1. Konzert fur Violine, Oboe, Streicher und Continuo d-moll, nach BWV 1060
2. Brandenburgisches Konzert no.3 G-dur, BWV 1048

Otto Buchner violine
Edgar Shann oboe

Festival Strings Lucerne
Leitung: Rudolf Baumgartner
Munchener Bach-Orchester
Dirigent: Karl Richter