getting rid of me Kan's...

It's allmost inpossible to demo 99% of the mentioned speakers,since there isn't one dealer in my area that sells them!

Most of the HiFi-stores in the area where I live,only deal in the big commercial brands like Mission,Tannoy,B&W,Kef,etc.

I did demo the Sonus Faber "Concertino" once with my old Cyrus-two. It's a beautiful speaker indeed and it sounded wonderful through the Cyrus but there was a little too much bass and a tad slow.
(they're 86db I believe)
So, I guess with my Nait-2 the bass will only get worse.

btw: I do have a big rug between my system and the listening spot.
(see pic below)

So, I guess that leaves me 3 choices...

1. I can bring along my Nait to the store where I got my Nait & Kan's and try some other speakers.
(He's the most flatearth HiFi dealer in Holland!)
only thing is...99% of his speakers are just the same ol' ugly,black boxes as my Kan's)

2. Bring along my Nait to a more round-earth dealer and try some speakers that the dealer will recommend.

3. stop nagging and be satisfied with it

Well, as soon as I figured it out I'll let ya know.

Greetings, and Happy Newyear!

Alco

If you must change from Kans I would give the Spendor 3/5's a listen. I think these could be
the answer to Kan enthusiasts who require just a tad more 'pipe & slippers'.

Bob.

After looking at the picture, have you considered treating the wall the speakers are on? You have alot of reflective surface behind and between the speakers. How far behind the sofa is the backwall?
Are you getting any slap off of the backwall?

Anyway, why don't you try some cheap and easy things to tame the room. ( note that these are ugly, no WAF and temporary - just too see if it works )

Take a large bath towel / sheet ( or 2 per side ) and tack it up behind the speakers. Same with something behind the rack - below the CD's. The same techinique can be used with throw pillows stuffed into room corners ( ie ceiling wall junctions ) If you have a resonant freq in the lower spectrum, with some playing you may be able to cancel it using a larger cardboard box stuffed with newspaper / foam chip packing, towels etc Use your imagination with regards to size and stuffing. Placement of the trap will also have an effect.

Of course, moving the placement of the towels, altering their size, and single / double thickness will have an effect. Take a day or two, and play around with the home tweaks. This will at least give you an indication of weather the room can be brought a bit more into line.

I know it sounds wierd / looks even more so, to have a towel or 3 pinned to the wall behind your kit but it does help. After 15 years of Kan owership this is not the first time I have done this. It's cheezey but works. I am now in the process of looking into what materials to use to build a set of traps for behind my kans's. Obviously I want to preserve the bottom while taking the bite out of the upper mid / trebble.

My room is about 17' x 10' ( ~ 5m x 3m )with suspended hardwood floor, 10 foot ceilings and lathe and plaster construction. Live is an understatment - I have found that natural materials work better than man-make. A nice wool rug works can wonders behind the kit, too bad the ideas was vetoed. ( WAF ) Hence back to the small traps - and using towels to test.

HTH

Don't give up on the Kan's as I said before. There has been some great advice, sort your room, and keep the kan's for a reference, at least until you choose a replacement - if not longer )

Hope you had a good Christmas and the new year finds you and yours well.

Regards,

mykel

Thanks for your advice.
I did some experimens with large bath towels,but instead of of hanging 'em, behind the speakers I layed 'em directly in front of the Kan's.
That already made a small but fair difference.

but,...then again,... I wouldn't like having 2 large bath towel lying/hanging around in my like livingroom and a bigger rug is also no alternative.

Too bad the fireplace has to stand between the Kan's. Real bummer, but there's nothing I can do about that either.
When good setup for my system is considered,I hate my room. (never should've moved from my 1st appartment)

The sofa is only 10cm from the wall behind it,so
no room for experimenting here either.

I did swap my naca5 for my old left over Tranparent "the Wave" which gave the Kan's a little more bass. (althoug at the cost of speed and dynamics a little) Also the highs became a little smoother.
I know the Naca5 is better and I did loose some of the strengths of the Kan's,but now they same a little more bearable.

But,after all the good advice about setup,placement,room treatments,etc, one thing about the Kan's remain the same... Their El cheapo looks.
(ok, I also knew that before I bought 'em, and maybe I should have listenend better to myself and have some more patience with finding the 'right' speakers for my Nait...)

O,well. let's look at the bright side!
I do have got a nice musical system which has the basics right,eh. I already have a good source and a very decent, musical amp.
(Nait-2: bargain of the century,somebody at the forum once mentioned)

So,I'll take my time to check out some different speakers.
(glad I only have a small Nait-2. I wouldn't like
dragging some Krell or ML amps with me to a store)

see ya'

Alco

quote:

---

But,after all the good advice about setup,placement,room treatments,etc, one thing about the Kan's remain the same... Their El cheapo looks.

---

This bit I don't get.....

Paul

well, just look at the Kan's (incl: the dedicated stands) and compare them to ehhhm,let's say a sonus faber or some Diapasons or B&W Nautilus.

If i didn't knew the Kans they would not catch my eye at a pawnshop,and I would think they came free with an early 80's Japanaes midi system.
(imho)

Greetings,
Alco

A cautionary word in your ear mate..
Friend of mine is proud as punch of his B&W 804's
Bangs on at great lenght about how FAB they look, how beatifully built, how high tech.. etc etc.

Problem is they sound lousy and everyone except him can hear it..

DONT GO THERE!

Good luck with your hunt.

quote:

---

well, just look at the Kan's (incl: the dedicated stands) and compare them to ehhhm,let's say a sonus faber or some Diapasons or B&W Nautilus.

---

Purposeful versus furniture with a 'do not sit here' sign?

I think the Kans look great in the photos of your room, but maybe you could try wall mounting them? Alternatively the Linn Katan stand is a bit more interesting to look at.

Paul

Did building speakers yourself ever crossed your mind? If you like Sonus Faber, you should take a look at the Scanspeak designs. Sonus Faber uses Scanspeak units also. Not so long ago I have build the Scanspeak Reference Monitor. This sounds absolutely stunning with my Naim setup. Lots of detail and PRAT.

Pictures on www.grootaers.myweb.nl

I have been using Kan Mk1's on Kan stands for some time now and initially with a Nait 1 in a fairly large room.

Although often marvelous, I too found them a bit harsh - particularly with the volume up. At the time I considered replacing them with Epos ES11's but was advised by a dealer that the problem was with the amplification and that once I had got on the pre-power ladder I would find the Kans much more acceptable with much deeper bass. The dealer didn't think that the Epos speakers would make that much of an improvement and that the Kans were good for many future 'front end' upgrades.

With a NAP140 things were much better... the dealer was right.

Still, now we have Epos ES12's and I still wonder if they might be better....

Now,after all the info and advice I got by adding this topic, I decided to keep 'em for a while, though I will be checkin' out some other speakers,just out of curiosity.

I have to say that my Kan's look better on a pic than they do in real life.. On a picture the woodveneerlook!, looks pretty real,but in the end, it still is fake and it's starting to bother me more lately.

btw: John, I tried a 72/140 on my Kan's at a dealer a few months ago,but (to my surprise!) the improvements and control, compared to my Nait2 were (too) small,imho.

well, I'll be back

astalavista

Alco

As John said, when I moved to pre-power things evened out tremendously. Now running a 72'd 32.5 and a 160. Bass is deeper, tighter and more even. Mids are a more open but the top end has improved the most. Gone is most of the glare, and the highs have more sparkle and extension - more "real". God I hate trying to describe audio cues in words. Having said that they are still Kan's and are still capable of cutting glass with poor quality material, but now this tendancy is greatly reduced. With a better source ( currently Linn MimikII and Thorens 160 )
this problem would be aleviated even more.

Alco, have you ever demoed the Nait 1 against the 2? I have not but "understand" the differences are akin to the Kan 1 vs II, little more control, less shouty and a bit smoother. I did not mention my amp experience because of this, I ASSumed that the Nait 2 would be closer the the pre-power sound than the 1, based upon my understanding. Sorry, I should have mentioned this earlier. Kan's do like control, they were developed on the 250. My manual suggests the 250 ( go figure ) as suitable amplification.

And a side note, when I was running the Nait 1, like I mentioned the speakers I demoed fell into 2 categories. Those the nait would drive fine, and those it would not. This took quite a few interesting speakers out of the running immediately.

You may find a speaker you love, but then find the amp just does not have the capabiltiy to drive it above background levels without getting ragged.

Anyway, just trying to add to the confusion !!!

mykel

As I said, do yourself a favour and listen to a Linn vs Naim system at your place before you get rid of the Kans. There are only 2 ways of getting that balanced sound without going round-earth:

1) Naim electronics with Naim loudspeakers
2) Linn electronics with Linn loudspeakers

Remember Chris Frankland's synopsis of this in Hi-Fi Review? When comparing the Aro against the Ekos it was noted that the Aro was voiced for the SBL, the Aro would be too overbearing with the Isobariks. On the other hand, the Ekos was voiced to suite the Isobariks.

From experience, these principles still apply today.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

I hope that bouncy floor doesn't extend under your stands.

As I said, a more powerful amp cured most of this problem - completely on Vinyl and almost on CD.

To finally nail the ****er only requires consumption of half a bottle of wine.

JB.

(and also I don't have a car... )

My Nait hasn't been recapped,but can it make such a difference ? How much does it cost ? (I'm Dutc h afterall )
and most important...how long would it take before I'd have my Nait back ?
(the thought of living without music for sometime,yikes )

The only amp I ever heard, within let's say 1000,- UKP, that sounded better than the Nait2 was a Sonneteer integrated. (not sure if it was the Campion or the Alabaster)

The Sonneteer "Campion" is a 30watt integrated amp costing just as much as the new Nait-5.

hmm,I could try the Sonneteer on the Kans first..

Damn, everytime time,just before a new year is coming up,I say to myself:"ok,Alco now try to keep and enjoy your system for at least another year", but everytime again cash is rolling and more stuff comes in and goes out,and in the end I'm still not satisfied.
(my Nait-2 has won the test of time though,for it's the first piece of kit I own for more than 2 years now!)

hmm,but maybe my mother, Bas V and also my (ex)girlfriend was right... I do have a buying addiction every now and then

I'll be back with a new topic soon

Greetings,
Alco

Some dealers will also deliver a home demo, with a 2 hour drive, if they know there is a 50/50 chance of a sale. I know I would, if I had a car that is...

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

quote:

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Originally posted by Alco:
My Nait hasn't been recapped,but can it make such a difference ?

---

Alco,

if it's more than 10 years old, it is probably desperately in need of a service.

I've heard several amps which were serviced, and the difference is usually very big.

cheers, Martin

The following Dutch dealers have both Naim and Linn

Audio Design, Utrecht
Snijders, Rotterdam
and probably De Jong and Warnnaars, Den Haag

I listened to the Naim CD 5 vs the Linn Ikemi, but despite the price difference I liked the CD 5 more. Are you sure you want to go the Linn way? I would try first the naim speakers or some tweaks like stands or cables.

Theo

Theo

quote:

---

Alco, have you ever demoed the Nait 1 against the 2? I have not but "understand" the differences are akin to the Kan 1 vs II, little more control, less shouty and a bit smoother.

---

I have both a late Nait 1 and a late Nait 2, the 2 is very much more controlled at the top end than the 1, though I must point out that as yet neither have been recapped, and the Mk 2 is obviously a lot younger.

The Nait 1 was good enough into my Kans to make me land a Nait 2 as an experiment prior to dumping my 32.5 / Hicap / 250 in favour of a more source first approach. The Nait 2 was good enough to go ahead with absolutely no regrets.

The problem with offering advice here is not knowing what Alco is hearing despite my running an identical CD based system. The only difference between our systems is that I have a QS Ref and use a Music Works block and a Music Works lead on the CDX.

My system sounds very open, clean, and clear. It times stunningly well, and has a complete freedom from the hardness, harshness, and edgyness that systems of its type can exhibit when setup incorrectly. I listen quietly, the volume knob never ventures beyond quarter too, so this area of the Nait 2 / Kan performance envelope is simply not an issue for me.

My only area of complaint is that my system does not have as much weight as I would like. I can hear every bass note very clearly, though there is not the physical quality that bass should have. The upshot is that the bass is perfectly in tune and times in a way that you need a phenomenally expensive system to achieve with true weight. I simply do not have the boom issues that plague so many systems, the bass is tight and even right throughout the range, it just looses weight the deeper it goes. This is the Kan dilemma that has plagued me for well over a decade - do I put up with the lack of weight and enjoy a system that has a musical performance many times its price, or do I go for a better all-rounder but loose that Kan magic.

The alternates are very few and far between. Intros / Credos are probably the best option, they are very efficient, so those few Nait watts would go further than they would with Kans, they are much more full range. The downside is that when ever I have heard them they sound slightly "messy" compared with the sound I get from Kans. I have not tried a pair at home though. The Katan sounds interesting, but is not much more efficient than the Kan, I don't know how well it would fair on the end of a Nait. By most accounts the excellent Neat range need a bit more grunt than the Nait can give, and Royd seem to have stopped making their cheaper speakers.

The other alternate is a sub. Probably not a good use of cash in either of our systems, though I have to admit would love to try one set really quiet and very low down in my own system and room. Years ago I took my first pair of Kans round to Jawed's when he was running SBLs with a big REL Stentor. His room is massive, and my Kans were a bit lost in there, but it was obvious that the sub could be made to work. We got it set so that when it was turned on everything just got clearer and more real but without any boom or tizz exaggeration. This is possibly a option worth trying.

I have no issues with the aesthetic quality of my Kans, mine are in a beautiful deep grained golden teak veneer, they would definitely not be considered a cheap looking speaker. Alco may have to consider a alternate to his DIY vinyl wrap. I have no idea how much it would be to actually get them professionally veneered, but I am always surprised how cheap things away from audio are! Might be a option. Kans seem to be getting more scarce at the moment, so finding a nice real wood finish pair might prove a little hard.

Tony.

Johno

Tony: Maybe your QS ref system support + your bigger rug that's lying directly in front of your kans is doing the trick.

to Theo: Utrecht,Rotterdam and Den Haag is not really just around the corner for me,since I live in Assen,to realize a homedemo from these stores,I think...
Also all the Naim dealers in my area only stock Naim equipment,not Naim speakers unfortunatly.

well, duty is calling again. (still 'working' at the office )

See y'all

Alco

Last time (one week ago) I was at Art in Sound in Roden I think I saw some Naim speakers. I don't remember it were Credos or Intros.

Theo

I'll have a look at Art in Sound in Roden a.s.a.p
(damn,that means I'll have to wait for 2 weeks)

I never liked the looks of the Intro's (as seen on pictures though) and I've read some negative words about 'em (thin,cold,harsh) but,... I think ill give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

Greetings,
Alco