Andrew Marr's History of Great Britian

IMO even if one wishes to disagree with some of Marr's 'conclusions', this 5-parter is extremely good.

Interesting how e.g. Naim/Linn now are like us under New Greedy Brainless Plonker Newspeak 'PC' Labour compared with some earlier ideals ... (a preview from next Tuesday's final part/'summary' ...).

[/QUOTE]

Rich

Anyone who thinks the country was in a better state before she took over compared to how she left it must be completely mad.


Regards

Mick[/QUOTE]

Mick,

I agree she left the country in a better state for some, but in a worse state for many, many more (including many who were stupid enough to vote for her).


Rich

"...stupid enough to vote for her"

What an incredibly patronising turn of phrase! People voted for Blair, but that is democracy for you! The trouble with democracy is that it throws up results which are not always to our personal tastes, but that does not make those who disagree with any of our personal views "stupid!" None of us has a monopoly on "sense."

All IMO of course! Fredrik

Posted Fri 15 June 2007 01:24 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JWM:

the nasty, selfish, modern British 'me' culture, where 'I can do what I want, and if you don't like it, f*ck you'
Mick

Don't you think that this, while harsh, pretty much sums up the business community and most of its members?

Deane
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Deane

Yes there is some truth in that and Maggie made that happen. Britian went down the plug in the idealistic sixties and seventies when reality became unfashionable.

Today the UK is a very efficient business machine and it drives its people relentlessly along to meet targets and achieve goals.

The result is that millions of Britons are now buying up properties in Europe and America because we now have the money to do so.

Britain is becoming, once again, a success orientated society and long may it continue.

Regards

Mick

I agree she left the country in a better state for some, but in a worse state for many, many more (including many who were stupid enough to vote for her).....Rich

I see Fredrik has more than compently dealt with that stupid and arrogant comment.

The difference today is that there is a lack of sympathy for those who became worse off under her reign.

The losers tended to be those who were in inefficient old fashioned industries or those propped up by the taxpayer. Both had to go. They were a drain on the rest of us. Today most of us are employed in sleek money making industries although there are still too many civil servants who could do with a few years of zero pay increases to motivate them out of their current inefficient existance.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
Mick

Don't you think that this, while harsh, pretty much sums up the business community and most of its members?

Deane

Deane

I don't think the business community has any exclusivity on those values but maybe they are a good reflection of how the common man operates these days?

Jay

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:

Britain is becoming, once again, a success orientated society and long may it continue.

Mick

How do you measure success in society?

Deane

How do you measure success in society?

Deane

You could write a book answering that but within the confine of this thread, success equates to a thriving and vibrant economy.

Without a healthy economy, you cannot have a healthy society.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

the nasty, selfish, modern British 'me' culture, where 'I can do what I want, and if you don't like it, f*ck you'

Mick

Don't you think that this, while harsh, pretty much sums up the business community and most of its members?

Deane

Deane,

As a matter of interest, what makes you think it does?

The vast majority of business carries on without incident, providing fulfilling employment to others and contributing massive amounts of tax that supports society.

Is there greed in business, hell yes. Just like there is among individuals. I don't get your anti-business stance.

My wife has a business with staff that have been with her for many years. One of these, despite having been well remunerated and bonused over the years was found to be stealing.

Does this change our perception of all potential employees? Of course not. Nor should it.

What would be the point. You seem to have a real downer on business and enterprise, but without those who are prepared to invest their extra time and efforts and take risks that others are not prepared to take, society would find itself a bit skint.

The fact that businesses struggle to generate wealth at the rate that governments can squander it might be a subject more worthy of your ire.

Steve

I come here to talk hi-fi and music, so I'm not going to say anything other than:

Thatcher's attack on working class communities was despicable.

Success = Money?

The question [non party political] is this really. Do I work to live, or do I live to work?

I work to live, and hard at it too, but I am damned if if I will ever fall for the live to work game! The trouble is that capitalism, if unregulated, will concentrate all the wealth in the hands of a small cabal that owns the means of productions and therefore controls all our lives. This is undoubted made worse by the rise of multi-national corperations [eg Walmart]. This situation means that in the end there is no lfe beyond work for the less well off, and thus they live to work, whether they like it or not.

Capitalism and entrepreneurial enterprise is essential, and in pre-Thatcher Britain the power had swung too far towards those workers who manned essential sevices like Electricity Generation, Coal, and so on. Others were not so fortunate, and in the sevnties it now seems inconceivable that agricultural wages allowed food tobe put on the table in many rural homes. These wages were regulated by a Government Board in those days!

But unrestrained Capitalism is just as wrong. What is needed and what is implemented with significant success in countries like Norway for one very good example - a system of legislation to regulate Capital and share the National wealth reasonably fairly. Interesting that in Europe Norway has one of the highest GNPs and average wages allow for a good standard of living, whilst there is little in the way of a crazy house owning ethos, and housing is both good, and available, whilst being reasonably priced in terms of rent, while the regulation allows for security of tenure for good tenants. Mr Blair would have been better to look into the more moderate forms of European Conservatism than actually take Thatcherism and bastardise it with the current "borrow today, have now" culture which is building up a huge house price bubble, and massive consumer debt.

When a recession hits the UK now it will be very serious. There is absolutely no chance that we can avoid the consequences of a worldwide increase in the rate of inflation [food comodities and fossil fuels in particular], so I would guess that the spending boom of the Major and Blair era will be curtailed eventually and with considerable pain in UK as interst rates rise in attempt to cool the econmy and squeeze out inflation. I don't know what the borrowing and spending situation is in the US, but if the US and UK caught a financial cold at the same time, then the worldwide effects might be more severe than anything since the great depression of the twenties and thirties following the 1926 crash.

Potimistic as ever! Fredrik

Fredrik

Cheer up, things are not too bad.

America is in the shit and it will be they who will suffer more than us. The days of when America sneezes the world catches a cold are coming to an end. Their prices are too high and their export potential is fast waning.

I suspect we have one or perhaps two more interest rate increases and that will be that.

The main reason for our inflationary increases was gas and electricity increases and they are now coming down. Also we are getting more and more cheap imports fron China and that puts a downward pressure on inflation. This is why Tesco and Asda are announcing a price war, the pressures of inflation are easing.

Regards

Mick

Steve

My prejudice against the business world - and I readily admit that it is a prejudice - is based on personal experience and observation.

The history of the way that businesses treat their employees and the world is centuries old and not very pretty. Every change that has brought businesses out of the dark ages to a more human way of treating employees has been forced upon the business world by legislation and the suffering of the employees. (They used to shoot and beat trade unionists - no wonder they became militant in reply.)

It is the same today.

Deane

quote:

(They used to shoot and beat trade unionists - no wonder they became militant in reply.)

It is the same today.

Bloody hell Deane, that's terrible!!!!

I thought New Zealand was more or less civilised. I can't quite remember the last time we shot somebody in the UK because he was a trade unionist, but I think it was a few years back. How many do you shoot each year in New Zealand?? Are there any government figures for 2004/2005/2006 ??

Cheers

Don (who has just decided to give a New Zealand holiday the miss next year because of this outrage)

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
Steve

My prejudice against the business world - and I readily admit that it is a prejudice - is based on personal experience and observation.

The history of the way that businesses treat their employees and the world is centuries old and not very pretty. Every change that has brought businesses out of the dark ages to a more human way of treating employees has been forced upon the business world by legislation and the suffering of the employees. (They used to shoot and beat trade unionists - no wonder they became militant in reply.)

It is the same today.

Deane

Deane,

I'm no apologist for the excesses of any group. But heck that's a bit of generalisation don't you think?

The vast majority of businesses (including Naim dealers) are creaking under the weight of unecessary regulation and nitwit legislation that leaves them wondering why they bother.

The majority of business people are perfectly reasonable, unless you belong to a group that believes employment itself is exploitation?

In which case, I'm anxious to understand where the wealth is going to come from.

Steve

Deane

I have just watched the final episode of this excellent series and the conclusions were obvious. Britain has done more than almost any nation to free up its markets and borders and the result is a massive but substainable boom in the economy.

This is since Maggie to the end of Blair, so both parties can claim credit.

Andrew Marrs final comment was that to be born British is a stroke of luck and as a foreigner you should learn from us, free up business and we all do well.

We made our choice and it paid off, now its your call.

Regards

Mick .. soon to fly to Spain to join thousands of other Brits who are buying up Europe.

Have a good time Mick, and take the best of our culture along. Have a look at theirs too.

Pretty damning assessment of the Major years, wasn't it? (loved the first shot of Major in a tank in the Gulf to the 2001 theme. Also!)

MP could take out an advert a daily paper to tell a few more people that you have a property abroad?

Rupert

Yes Major was portrayed as weak but the programme failed to mention that his party was split by the europhile vs eurosceptic squabble.

He was being held to ransom by numbers and although he successfully resubmitted himself for election as party leader, the Therasa Gormans effectively stitched him up like a kipper.

BigH47

The point I am making was that pre Maggie, owning a foreign property was rare now it is very common. That was mainly down to Maggie for turning the country around.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by rupert bear:
Have a good time Mick, and take the best of our culture along. Have a look at theirs too.

Pretty damning assessment of the Major years, wasn't it? (loved the first shot of Major in a tank in the Gulf to the 2001 theme. Also!)

Also Tony gurning away to Supergrass was inspired!

I am pleased to be lucky, although I do sometimes dream of other lands, usually a former outpost of the empire.

Jono

Another thought on this series, would a set of programs of this quality and interest on this subject be made anywhere else?

I don't think so.

Up the BBC, long may it rule!

Jono

This series removed any lingering doubt that I had about the value of the licence fee. I thought Marr was exceptionally even handed and objective. Utterly brilliant use of the medium.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
The point I am making was that pre Maggie, owning a foreign property was rare now it is very common. That was mainly down to Maggie for turning the country around.

Sorry Mick but this just shows what a sheltered world you live in. It's certainly not very common up here. In fact it's not common at all. I'd imagine it's also not common in many parts of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

quote:

owning a foreign property was rare now it is very common.

Especially amongst the sample of people near you in Spain. Try asking on Swindon high street and see how many there are.

quote:

Mick .. soon to fly to Spain to join thousands of other Brits who are buying up Europe.