Naim Frame- how good is it? and what improvements?

You have got to do it - it opens up the sound still further. It was a surprising but very real upgrade for me. The Fraim is an impotant component

CDSII, 52, 135's Fraim, and SF Electa Amator II's

Fraim Gain

I have Fraim and reckon its effect cannot be replicated by spending the money on better black boxes.

For me; Fraim pulls all the strands of the music together in a beautifully layered fashion. Poor quality supports (particularly steel framed) tend to produce an exciting fast sound, that pushes lead instruments/vocals forward, and supresses background information.

Fraim has almost a benign sound - no nasty glassy effects. The guys at Naim really have got it right.

And hell; it's pretty as well!

I have owned a lot of supports and the Fraim is the only product to live up to hype.

If you have hardwoods, spring for the chips for your Fraim and speakers.

Chris Bell

The Fraim is awesome. I feel that the difeerences in the bass quality, timing and extension cannot be over-emphasised. cleans up the treble withou creating an edginess. Makes everything more musical. Truly stunning and I totally agree with J.N. The effect cannot be reproduced in the electronics.

Just get one!!

Joe90

I have recently upgraded from Mana to Fraim - and as far as I am concerned, it really is an UPGRADE. I lived with Mana for nearly three years, always feeling that it was not really the sound I wanted. I think I have quite sensitive ears and found the Mana way too bright - bordering on harsh.

Fraim, in comparison, produces a far more natural sound, but losing nothing in detail, clarity, bass tightness etc. Infact, it gives me substantially more of everything I want. Most important to me is that it is much more easy to listen to for extended periods.

I would never consider owning a Naim system without Fraim. I can't imagine that anyone who has moved from Mana to Fraim with a Naim system would be disappointed - but I suppose there might be the odd exception!!

Cheers from the land of the long white cloud,

Rob Bowie

Has anyone got experience of improvements in sound with different boxes on fraim/non-fraim supports? How about source components on top of a 4/5 level fraim vs. on a wallshelf?

I have 2x5 level quadraspire and 2 wall shelves currently and am thinking to change to fraim gradually (too expensive to do all at once)! What should the order of priority be, and what items should be on the same fraim/separated to give 2 equal height levels? (To accommodate 52/SC/4x135's/XPS/Lingo/NAT02/NAXO/HiCap/CR7, with an LP12 and a CDS2 on the wallshelves)

I've owned multi-phase Mana (to Phase 8), and currently own Quadraspire Reference, but I'd say the Fraim is better than both. Unfortunately I discovered this post Mana/QS Ref. purchases and am sticking with the QS Ref. until someone gives me a stonking wad of cash.

I'd say that in my experience:

Mana < QS Ref < Fraim

...though Mana under certain things (LP12, speakers, some amps) is fantastic. QS Ref is probably best for my amps (which are acrylic-bodied and very non-ferrous) but the lure of Fraim (which I think combines the best of both worlds) is compelling.

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

The Fraim is so crucial to the best sound that I consider it the first source component in the sense that everything will sound better with it, no matter what the level of your gear. Without Fraims, nothing will reach its potential.
Don

Quite simply... you will only hear what your Naim system can do if it is housed on Fraim....words are superfluous!

I upgraded to a fraim in the last 48 hours and Im utterly astounded at the improvement.
The wife can even tell the differance - its the only upgrade she has been able to .
Music that I have been listening to for 30 years is suddenly fresh and alive again, fresh layers and detail are suddenly apparent. bass lines are easier to follow , everything far more relaxed and natural. Less Hi-Fi more music.
Wish Id got one sooner

Has anyone upgraded from Hutter's to the Fraim?
Are the Fraim's worth double the price?

I can't help thinking some of you may be over-selling the Fraim a bit. Yes it is good but if your equipment has remained untouched for long periods there are substantial benefits from stripping it down and putting it back together again. I can see that it would be easy to attribute the benefits of this to the arrival of a new stand.

My own experience fwiw is that back when I had an 82/SC/250 I borrowed a 52, 135's and a Fraim at the same time and incorporated each independantly. For me, the 52 was the most significant improvement, the Fraim was of similar magnitude to adding the 135's but cheaper so I bought the 52 and Fraim.

Regards
Steve

Just over a year ago I had a side-by-side home demo of the Fraim (aka Laim) vs. Mana. The reason a number of Naim forum guys suggested the Fraim really was ‘that’ good and being that were all in this for the music ‘right’ NOT the labels (I think), I thought I’d try it out.

Anyway – after 3 days the Mana was clearer better for me, by far. The Fraim came across as slowing the music down and losing the ultimate bass resolution the Mana gave. The whole Fraim presentation was not what I wanted; to me it was contrary to the old Naim style (mid range, blah, blah, blah), kind of like the new series gear, more for the masses and the blind followers.

If your really serious do the demo and let your ears decide, NOT the forum hype.
Has anyone done the side-to-side comparison, my understanding is one or the other was in seclusion or a leap of faith route (correct me if I’m wrong – please)…

naheed. . .

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Has anyone done the side-to-side comparison, my understanding is one or the other was in seclusion or a leap of faith route (correct me if I’m wrong – please)…

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For me, yes, I have never done a side-by-side of Mana versus Fraim or QS Ref versus Fraim. I have, however, done a side-by-side of Mana versus QS Ref and ended up flogging all of my Mana (except for the spirit level and speaker stands) and buying a QS Ref.

It really just boils down to the kit you have and what suits it best. My kit is extremely low mass, and Mana didn't do anything positive for it whatsoever*. I'd bought into the Mana system long before I moved to the current kit and with the previous system it was fantastic. The new kit much prefers to be on QS Ref, though I imagine a Fraim would suit it even better still.

Let's not go there, thinks I...

John

* My personal theory on this is that most other kit benefits from Mana because of its construction - heavy casework, metal feet, etc. - whereas the kit I use has next to no metal parts whatsoever AFAIK (except the copper tracks) and so probably doesn't follow the same rules as conventional kit.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I have to agree with Naheed. Don't just buy a rack on faith - that's not how you ended up with Naim electronics, you demmed against alternatives and went with what you preferred (I hope).

I also have some Mana. I use it under my LP12 and find it much better in this role than Fraim. The difference it made to the TT performance is significantly greater than the improvements Fraim made to the electronics.

I'm not yet able to say whether I prefer Mana to Fraim for the amps. I'm keeping an open mind and will experiment at some stage. Since I can only support one component with Mana I will have to put the TT on Fraim and get used to it again and then try putting one component on the Mana. Does anyone have a view on which would be most conclusive - pre, amp, SC, Armageddon or Prefix-SC?

Regards
Steve

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The Fraim came across as slowing the music down

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I certainly don't want to exclude the possibility of your Mana being "faster" than the Fraim (i.e. transient response or whatever it's called), but I hope you're not confusing that with a perceived reduction of the musical tempo.

I find certain improvments make you think the piece of music is being played at a slower tempo (i.e. 115 bpm instead of 120 bpm -- that doesn't *really* happen, of course); found this to be the case especially with preamp upgrades and recently with the addition of Mana Soundbases under my SBLs. I suppose the way it works is that everything is presented in much more organized fashion, which takes some stress off your brain (sorry for the highly scientific language).

The few times it's happened in my system I've found it a bit odd at first, but ultimately musically rewarding. BTW, I don't consider this phenomenon and "faster transients" to be mutually exclusive. With the Mana Soundbases, for example (can you tell I'm in appeasement mode?), I got better timing, more "speed" and seemingly slower tempi.

What phase was the Mana at when you compared it to the Fraim?

Thomas

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Originally posted by Naheed:

If your really serious do the demo and let your ears decide, NOT the forum hype.
Has anyone done the side-to-side comparison, my understanding is one or the other was in seclusion or a leap of faith route (correct me if I’m wrong – please)…

_naheed. . ._

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Hi Naheed,

I did the a/b for five weeks. Afterwards I sold my eleven pieces of Mana for the loaner stack of Fraim. You're right..there was no contest...the Fraim was superior.

regards,

dave

P.S. Thomas: My dems pitted Mana at P1-P5 against a conventional 3-shelf Fraim (supporting cds mk1, empty shelf, and 102 with a hicap, napsc, and 250 on the floor).

Tempo and Linn...

I remember the early LP12 dems. The LP12 really "slowed" things down compared to other turntables of the day.

The resident Flat Earth Teacher advised that one could tell the best flat earth kit as being that which made the music sound the slowest. Not saying he was right mind you...

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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The resident Flat Earth Teacher advised that one could tell the best flat earth kit as being that which made the music sound the slowest. Not saying he was right mind you...

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Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone else speak of this phenomenon. Thanks, Greg.

Thomas

Hi Dave

Its because of your comments sometime ago to me that I opted to demo the Fraim (fairly) and as said, I found the Mana trounced it for me in every way.

Unlike Thomas – he goes for the badge – ehh mate

Thomas at the time of the comparison, my Mana was at phase 9 (I think)…

A question speed, quite simply put the Fraim still appeared to mask an awful amount of detail, kinda providing congestion to the music – which I describe as slowing it down, muffled if you like.

Using Soundbases with inadequate rack support for your boxes, just highlights the poor rack problem, more so…

I respect Dave’s approach he had a lot of Mana, and in the end followed his ears, now that’s two of us – what about the rest of you guys/girls… ???

naheed. . .

I owned a bunch of Mana and it never lived up to the hype. The sound was edgy, bright, hard. Everyone said it was not set up properly, so I had it expertly set up by the importer. Still no good.

I switched to Fraim and the benefits were immediate and huge: more detail, more music, more tune. I think the testimonials here speak for themselves.

Chris Bell

Back from clubbing, ey?

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Unlike Thomas – he goes for the badge – ehh mate

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Naturally! (As an aside, Fraim users actually get to decide whether to have the badge on the product or not ... mine is in the drawer in my study.)

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at the time of the comparison, my Mana was at phase 9 (I think)

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Pah, wait till Fraim users evolve to a similarly sophisticated level of levelitude, applying the concept of multiple phasing to the Fraim.

As I said, I did the A/B, albeit in a limited sense as I only tested the supports under my power amps.

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Using Soundbases with inadequate rack support for your boxes, just highlights the poor rack problem, more so

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Are you getting cheeky on me? Please re-read: I found the perceived reduction of the tempo to be musically rewarding (didn't really concentrate on detail, but yes, the Soundbases afford more detail in a rather pleasing manner -- despite my crappy equipment rack).

The fact remains: I will probably never be able to do an extensive A/B dem since Mana is a mythical beast in Continental Europe. You wouldn't want anyone to go all sheepy and buy without demming, would you?

Thomas

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I respect Dave’s approach he had a lot of Mana, and in the end followed his ears, now that’s two of us – what about the rest of you guys/girls… ???

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Not quite the same, but I moved from Phase 8 Mana to QS Ref, trading a little detail and clarity for a lot more music. Kept the Mana under the speakers until a change of speakers made that impossible (Mana too small). Of course, I only did this because I was too thick to set the Mana up properly, or so the faithful would have had you believe Seriously, though, the long and short of it was that Mana didn't work under my new amps, so it had to go.

Now I'm back in LP12 land there's a compelling argument for getting another Mana table, though the QS Ref works surprisingly well under the LP12 (I thought it would sound broken, given the LP12's liking for rigidity in a stand).

Only goes to show you can't second guess how a piece of kit will perform on a stand. Only by trying can you work it out for yourself.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I said: "Please re-read: I found the perceived reduction of the tempo to be musically rewarding"

Sorry, not a very logical reply since you already stated that the "slow" you were talking about wasn't the "slow" I was talking about. I was a bit slow yesterday ...

Thomas

No problem guys - i guess we can agree to disagree
I believe both racks are dependant upon preference, from there you makes ya choice

naheed. . .