Live Music at Carnegie Hall Vs High-end audio.

Posted by: Jaybar on 19 June 2001

Had the opportunity to listen to live music at Carnegie Hall in NYC.

I did find significant differences between the live event and most systems to make me think about what was important. Maybe even to re-think the way I evaluate a system. I was in row "P" in the orchestra (center) as this may have had something to do with it. I found that:
1) Bass was not nearly as tight in the live event. I wonder why we strive for ultra tight bass? Bass was better integrated into the music.

2) Individual images were more compressed in the real event, when I closed my eyes. Made me wonder about the supposed importance of image separation.

3) Dynamic swings were greater in the live event, yet when the volume got loud, I never cringed.

4) Transients seemed to be more integrated into the music and not as etched/fast.

5) applause sounded far louder than on a live recording.

6) Apart from lots more "AIR" w/o high-frequency overstating, the usual audiophile jargon did not manifest itself to any great degree. The importance of PRAT and how it integrated into the music and the music's ability to "play tunes" or almost get me singing were very aparant, compared to many systems. Most systems understate PRAT and I have heard a few NAIM systems that overstate PRAT, where the music becomes relentless. Linn, with its emphasis on playing the Tune and Naim with its emphasis on PRAT may be correct. The key is not over/underdoing it. Maybe PRAT is emphasized too much here. What is more important, PRAT or tonal balance or seeing what is effected what we have to choose one or the other? My experience has been that systems that strive for PRAT may do so at the expense of musically natural tonality and those that strive for musical naturalness are often boring. How do we get both w/o mega $$$$$$$.

7) Things sounded more blendid and warmer in the live event with a more pleasing, less ragged or natural tonal balance. The "big picture" was more important than the transients and the sub/parts.

Made me wonder what exactly is neutrality and what the role of a system is anyhow. Maybe its just to bring music into the home with involvement/communication being key.

Posted on: 19 June 2001 by Cheese
Interesting point, and basically I agree - FMOP, I think live performances are a lot more "tuneful", on the other hand the actual "sound quality" can well be better on a disc. If you've once heard a piano sonata in a room with poor acoustics and sitting at the wrong place, YKWIM ...

But I fear it is not that simple. In some ways, we can even go further by saying that the interpretation can greatly influence our perception. Interpretations of baroque music by Gustav Leonhardt or Beethoven symphonies conducted by Toscanini may well show very good PRaT, eh ? So would do the lightnings coming out of Horowitz' Steinway, and the like.

I wouldn't yet be surprised if the same orchestral works played by Karajan, Abbado or Celibidache would have far less PRaT but better architecture, soundstaging and other round-earth qualities (oh yes there are some!).

Either way, enjoying live music is IMO easier because we can appreciate the music as such, and just that. When we listen to our black boxes, how do we actually judge - can we just sit down and enjoy Beethoven, or do we actually listen to the differences between our hard-earned gear and the ideal of the sound at Carnegie Hall ?

BTW : You're f****** lucky to live in the Big Apple, be it just for the Carnegie and the Met mad

Cheese - may all beings be happy smile

Posted on: 19 June 2001 by bdnyc
Jaybar-
The memories of the wonderful American roots music concert held last week at Carnegie Hall to celebrate the Coen brothers recent movie "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?" are still fresh in my mind. Seeing such wonderful artists as Emmylou Harris, Alison Krauss (with her brilliant instrumentalists including Jerry Douglas), Gillian Welch, Ralph Stanley and others was sublime. Hearing this very simple, but deeply felt, folk music sung with virtually no amplification was a great experience. Virtually every song featured great harmony vocals. In a good system that is in tune, you will naturally want to join in with your favorite singers. Another good test is the wonderful sense of awe that can fall over an audience, where they sit in silent appreciation of the music and the musicians making it. This is not at all the same as the flitting attention spans many seem to have in todays media saturated world. So you may want to become more sensitive to when your attention is not being held by music and why. Some musicians have complained that audiences today often seen to expect the hermetic perfection of recordings. So with live music try to honor the large and small gestures that are born of the moment. I love to see impovisational musicians for just that reason. At Carnegie Hall last week, you could have heard a pin drop, but it came with a heightened appreciation, sort of akin to a musical meditation. There was a contagous feeling in the hall of eager witnessing, and it is a very good test of a system at home or in a store. If the storytelling aspect of music isn't well served, your attention will wander-in my experience anyway.
To me, live music has attributes that are not fully replicated in the home. As for your particular observations, I think many of them relate to how the ear and brain hears music versus how the microphone and recording chain "hears" music. I think your observations that we are often are forced to choose between components and systems that honor one or more aspects of music superbly, but don't seem to honor all attributes equally is quite true.
What can sometimes be overlooked in this sort of discussion is just how fortunate we are to be able to enjoy home systems that can bring music alive to the great extent now possible in the high performance tier of the market.
Many of the best audio engineers have repeatedly emphasized that a little humility is often introduced or reinforced when they take in a great concert themselves. So, all music lovers should seek out live music. Not simply as a reminder of what home audio does or does not fully capture, but for the simple pleasure of the music. And for those of us hoping to better educate our ears, to aid in making our choices of audio equipment more wisely, live music is an invaluable resource.
So "git goin'"!

[This message was edited by bdnyc on WEDNESDAY 20 June 2001 at 04:50.]