Alpha Plus - iTunes
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 22 June 2009
My first satisfactory experience with Hard Drive stored music came via iTunes, and yet being a computer numpty, I held off till this evening installing it on mine, which is based on a Windows XP with Service Pack Three.
I had taken to heart what was written here, and attempted to extract with EAC without any success, and playback using Media Monkey, again with no satisfactory outcome.
The playback with Media Monkey was especially distressing as it elided the end of one track with the begining of the next so there is no proper pause and sometimes an overlap! I could see no way of altering this.
So I have ripped two CDs with iTunes which sound marvelous even through the PC soundcard, though no doubt this is an area which can be improved by installing some method of getting spidf out ...
_____________
Needless to say the track ends are beautifully timed so that where tracks are marked during the flow of the music with no break in tone [musical continuity] at all, the rhythm is perfectly preserved, and this without the need to tweak any settings at all.
The iTunes rips are indistinguishable from playing the CD back directly [with iTunes] and the replay quality is enough for me immediately to drop plans to replace the Marantz [CD recorder acting as transport onto a DAC] should the transport finally fail ...
The indexing is perfect. Nothing unnecessary is included, just work title, artist and track name or title. Ideal.
I was offered the option to sign up for a service that apparently clutters the system with visual art-work! I declined with gratitude!
I have been trying to get back to the basics of music as pitch, and rhythm with musical expression without visual distraction since my childhood days when I loved those ancient brown HMV albums of five or six 78 discs [for an hours music] which absolutely contained nothing worth looking at! Perfection! Music - just music.
Yes I am very excited about this!
Good replay. Perfect track joins. Zero art-work option. Simplicity to operate - it must be as I managed it first time.
There will certainly be finer things out there either costing loads, or requiring a PHD in driving computers to make work well, but with this I need look no further, which is something I mentioned here more than 12 moinths ago.
I wish I had had the courage of my convictions sooner.
Now all I need to do is get a PC full of music ready to audition the new Naim DAC when it comes out!
ATB from George
I had taken to heart what was written here, and attempted to extract with EAC without any success, and playback using Media Monkey, again with no satisfactory outcome.
The playback with Media Monkey was especially distressing as it elided the end of one track with the begining of the next so there is no proper pause and sometimes an overlap! I could see no way of altering this.
So I have ripped two CDs with iTunes which sound marvelous even through the PC soundcard, though no doubt this is an area which can be improved by installing some method of getting spidf out ...
_____________
Needless to say the track ends are beautifully timed so that where tracks are marked during the flow of the music with no break in tone [musical continuity] at all, the rhythm is perfectly preserved, and this without the need to tweak any settings at all.
The iTunes rips are indistinguishable from playing the CD back directly [with iTunes] and the replay quality is enough for me immediately to drop plans to replace the Marantz [CD recorder acting as transport onto a DAC] should the transport finally fail ...
The indexing is perfect. Nothing unnecessary is included, just work title, artist and track name or title. Ideal.
I was offered the option to sign up for a service that apparently clutters the system with visual art-work! I declined with gratitude!
I have been trying to get back to the basics of music as pitch, and rhythm with musical expression without visual distraction since my childhood days when I loved those ancient brown HMV albums of five or six 78 discs [for an hours music] which absolutely contained nothing worth looking at! Perfection! Music - just music.
Yes I am very excited about this!
Good replay. Perfect track joins. Zero art-work option. Simplicity to operate - it must be as I managed it first time.
There will certainly be finer things out there either costing loads, or requiring a PHD in driving computers to make work well, but with this I need look no further, which is something I mentioned here more than 12 moinths ago.
I wish I had had the courage of my convictions sooner.
Now all I need to do is get a PC full of music ready to audition the new Naim DAC when it comes out!
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 June 2009 by Nathaniel
Hi George,
Like you I'm a fan of iTunes. But I want to warn you of two problems I've encountered with iTunes as a ripping program.
1. Scratches
I agree with you that iTunes provides a very good, and simple ripping and playback user-interface, and I don't believe there is any perceptable difference between iTunes rips and those from EAC (etc) when both the disc being ripped and the computer CD drive in is healthy condition.
But using iTunes to rip CDs, I have suffered from many clicks and pops when I've ripped some of my older discs which, through great neglect during my younger, less informed years became scratched. Most annoyingly, iTunes gives you no alert that a rip contains clicks/pops/skips. It's only when you sit back to enjoy the music that you're startled by the skip. EAC and other members of the geeky ripping brigade are much better at reading scratched discs (they try repeatedly until they think they've read it), and if they struggle, they'll alert you to potential problem areas. Even when they can't read a disc perfectly, they fail much more gracefully--often the problem is inperceptable.
2. Silence
There's another problem ripping with iTunes (and other main-stream media players) that you may encounter as a classical music afficionado. I find the length of the pause between movements of a studio classical recording is quite important. (Obviously, with many live recordings, there is no gap). Depending on how the CD has been edited, many CDs include gaps of a few seconds as a 'count-down' before the next movement starts. Some of my discs have gaps of 10 seconds. iTunes rips do not include these gaps in the song file, so you might find a concerto's rousing finale strikes the moment a contemplative slow movement ends. It's really annoying and completely breaks the mood. You can instruct iTunes to put a couple of seconds gap between songs, but it's still not as cohesive as listening to the CD. The fancier rippers, like EAC, can be configured to append the pause between movements to the preceding track. Then you tell iTunes to play it as a gapless album, just as you would a live album, and you get an exact (as far as I can tell) reproduction of the CD's music.
Like you I'm a fan of iTunes. But I want to warn you of two problems I've encountered with iTunes as a ripping program.
1. Scratches
I agree with you that iTunes provides a very good, and simple ripping and playback user-interface, and I don't believe there is any perceptable difference between iTunes rips and those from EAC (etc) when both the disc being ripped and the computer CD drive in is healthy condition.
But using iTunes to rip CDs, I have suffered from many clicks and pops when I've ripped some of my older discs which, through great neglect during my younger, less informed years became scratched. Most annoyingly, iTunes gives you no alert that a rip contains clicks/pops/skips. It's only when you sit back to enjoy the music that you're startled by the skip. EAC and other members of the geeky ripping brigade are much better at reading scratched discs (they try repeatedly until they think they've read it), and if they struggle, they'll alert you to potential problem areas. Even when they can't read a disc perfectly, they fail much more gracefully--often the problem is inperceptable.
2. Silence
There's another problem ripping with iTunes (and other main-stream media players) that you may encounter as a classical music afficionado. I find the length of the pause between movements of a studio classical recording is quite important. (Obviously, with many live recordings, there is no gap). Depending on how the CD has been edited, many CDs include gaps of a few seconds as a 'count-down' before the next movement starts. Some of my discs have gaps of 10 seconds. iTunes rips do not include these gaps in the song file, so you might find a concerto's rousing finale strikes the moment a contemplative slow movement ends. It's really annoying and completely breaks the mood. You can instruct iTunes to put a couple of seconds gap between songs, but it's still not as cohesive as listening to the CD. The fancier rippers, like EAC, can be configured to append the pause between movements to the preceding track. Then you tell iTunes to play it as a gapless album, just as you would a live album, and you get an exact (as far as I can tell) reproduction of the CD's music.
Posted on: 23 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Fortunately my CDs - though very much used - are all very clean.
As in my LP days if one suffered some damage and was still available it was immediately replaced.
If I found a CD that had not copied correctly, then I would replace the CD and start again.
On the rare occasions where it had completely disappeared [Amazon often offers deleted CDs these days] I would attempt to create a new CD by ripping with an alternative copier and burning a new disc.
But I can definately say from experience that even EAC cannot rescue every disc you might ask it to copy. Some can have gone too far, such as a the handful I have had from the MPO factory in France which suffered from lacquer breakdown and the oxidation of the Aluminium layer.
In terms of the silences between movements, this is a particular problem on certain redcordings, but not on any of the ones I still have. If there is total silence then sometimes this is can be removed even by such software as Nero in my experience.
The length of silence between tracks is a source of frustration to me. Sometimes there is too much when it is clear the music should be effectively "attacka" and sometimes one could wish for ten secomnds or more as would be likely at a concert.
But if there is recorded ambient sound or tape hiss then the join will remain undisturbed. Thus a live recording or one from an analogue source is most unlikely to suffer from re-editing by iTunes. Early digital recordings often had pure silence between the tracks and these might.
Fortunately for me, my favouriote recording artsists tended to be active either in the analogue era, or are recording nowadys when the ambience will run continually throughout the recording ...
I have no recordings where there is absolute silence between the tracks, even though these used to be quite common, but I have not come across one instance of this gap being editted or fumbled. I would not deny that in some circumstances it could happen.
______________
As I indicated in the first post, I had no success trying to make the software work that gets the audiophile sign of approval, but have found not one aspect to grumble about with iTunes.
I just thought I would mention it ...
ATB from George
As in my LP days if one suffered some damage and was still available it was immediately replaced.
If I found a CD that had not copied correctly, then I would replace the CD and start again.
On the rare occasions where it had completely disappeared [Amazon often offers deleted CDs these days] I would attempt to create a new CD by ripping with an alternative copier and burning a new disc.
But I can definately say from experience that even EAC cannot rescue every disc you might ask it to copy. Some can have gone too far, such as a the handful I have had from the MPO factory in France which suffered from lacquer breakdown and the oxidation of the Aluminium layer.
In terms of the silences between movements, this is a particular problem on certain redcordings, but not on any of the ones I still have. If there is total silence then sometimes this is can be removed even by such software as Nero in my experience.
The length of silence between tracks is a source of frustration to me. Sometimes there is too much when it is clear the music should be effectively "attacka" and sometimes one could wish for ten secomnds or more as would be likely at a concert.
But if there is recorded ambient sound or tape hiss then the join will remain undisturbed. Thus a live recording or one from an analogue source is most unlikely to suffer from re-editing by iTunes. Early digital recordings often had pure silence between the tracks and these might.
Fortunately for me, my favouriote recording artsists tended to be active either in the analogue era, or are recording nowadys when the ambience will run continually throughout the recording ...
I have no recordings where there is absolute silence between the tracks, even though these used to be quite common, but I have not come across one instance of this gap being editted or fumbled. I would not deny that in some circumstances it could happen.
______________
As I indicated in the first post, I had no success trying to make the software work that gets the audiophile sign of approval, but have found not one aspect to grumble about with iTunes.
I just thought I would mention it ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Loaded about six CDs on this evening whilst listening happily to what is already loaded.
The system is rather good at sorting things out into a sensible order for display on the index table, and editing the titling is easy ...
It made a good rip from a CD that sadly has some replay noise from lacquer rot, and damaged metal layer [but which would still play in a CD player with audibly faulty results]. Not a fault was audible, so clearly the iTunes ripper is not useless. I was unable to get this silent copying with EAC, so I know which is preferable to me given that the original disc is now deleted and not about on Amazon.
However that was accademic to an extent as I have a finer performance of this piece of music on another disc, so I deleted it once I had checked that it had worked properly.
The main work on the disc was retained as it is the reason why I keep the disc.
_________________
This is only a dry run, throwing problems at it to see what work-arounds I might have to implement, such as putting the discs on in a sensible order [un-necessary], or ripping to another copy in the case of slightly damaged or aged discs [seems more immune to problems than normal playback or even my failed experiment with EAC].
The next thing is to get a MAC and set it up properly! Simply a question of time and saving
Very satisfied with this indeed.
ATB from George
The system is rather good at sorting things out into a sensible order for display on the index table, and editing the titling is easy ...
It made a good rip from a CD that sadly has some replay noise from lacquer rot, and damaged metal layer [but which would still play in a CD player with audibly faulty results]. Not a fault was audible, so clearly the iTunes ripper is not useless. I was unable to get this silent copying with EAC, so I know which is preferable to me given that the original disc is now deleted and not about on Amazon.
However that was accademic to an extent as I have a finer performance of this piece of music on another disc, so I deleted it once I had checked that it had worked properly.
The main work on the disc was retained as it is the reason why I keep the disc.
_________________
This is only a dry run, throwing problems at it to see what work-arounds I might have to implement, such as putting the discs on in a sensible order [un-necessary], or ripping to another copy in the case of slightly damaged or aged discs [seems more immune to problems than normal playback or even my failed experiment with EAC].
The next thing is to get a MAC and set it up properly! Simply a question of time and saving
Very satisfied with this indeed.
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 June 2009 by pcstockton
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
The next thing is to get a MAC and set it up properly! Simply a question of time and saving
Why is that George? If it sounds great now, why dump the cash on a Mac? Save it for the DAC.
-p
Posted on: 23 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
MAC-mini is roughly a quarter of the Naim DAC whilst I have a perfectly functional Lavry DA 10 already.
So MAC first, and then Naim DAC to audition in the subsequent 12 to 24 months.
Cost is the answer.
ATB from George
So MAC first, and then Naim DAC to audition in the subsequent 12 to 24 months.
Cost is the answer.
ATB from George
Posted on: 24 June 2009 by Guido Fawkes
Dear George
Why the rush to buy a Mac Mini if you have a good way to play music? The Mac Mini is not that wonderful and it'll be replaced soon.
ATB Rotf
Why the rush to buy a Mac Mini if you have a good way to play music? The Mac Mini is not that wonderful and it'll be replaced soon.
ATB Rotf
Posted on: 24 June 2009 by james n
quote:The Mac Mini is not that wonderful and it'll be replaced soon.
But it's small, very quiet and can be dedicated as a music server rather than a general purpose machine which is also used to stream music.
Posted on: 24 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
James is quite right.
Whatever stores my music will be used for that alone. This keeps things simple, and the MAC Mini is not much money comapred to many audio storage systems, and has a very great adavantage for me with the user interface of iTunes which I have not seen bettered in its presentation, and also being well suited to the iTunes software.
Altogether I had to try iTunes myself on a PC to make myself certain that I could drive it. The PC will continue in service for all other duties, but has insufficient HD space to be used for everything as well as music. The music itself would fill it twice, though I am tempted to leave what I have already put in place and add a certain amount more for occasional use.
That I liked iTunes before was not in doubt, just working through the gapless aspect and playing about with the file naming and so on, so now the way forward becomes simple enough.
ATB from George
PS: Dear ROTF, There is no rush to buy anything. Necessarily the approach remains one of saving up and then buying. There will be nothing like a rush about it!
Whatever stores my music will be used for that alone. This keeps things simple, and the MAC Mini is not much money comapred to many audio storage systems, and has a very great adavantage for me with the user interface of iTunes which I have not seen bettered in its presentation, and also being well suited to the iTunes software.
Altogether I had to try iTunes myself on a PC to make myself certain that I could drive it. The PC will continue in service for all other duties, but has insufficient HD space to be used for everything as well as music. The music itself would fill it twice, though I am tempted to leave what I have already put in place and add a certain amount more for occasional use.
That I liked iTunes before was not in doubt, just working through the gapless aspect and playing about with the file naming and so on, so now the way forward becomes simple enough.
ATB from George
PS: Dear ROTF, There is no rush to buy anything. Necessarily the approach remains one of saving up and then buying. There will be nothing like a rush about it!
Posted on: 24 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Further experiments are refining the issue!
I know the PC is a blind ally - not having sufficient HD space to accomodate the music even if my demand in ALAC is probably 200 to 250 Gig ...
But I have definately worked out that WAV has no definable difference for me from ALAC [Apple Lossless Audio Codec] while [lossey] MP4 [AAC] is fine enough but definably less accomplished than Apple lossless, which is a bit of a shame given the difference in HD space required!
Where this might leave Hi-res, is not something that will cause me any worry!
90 pre cent of the recordings I want are already here in Red Book Standard, and I have not the slightest interest in getting an incremental improvement in Hifi with the Hi-res issues as the music speaks in a compelling way already.
If something I want is available in Hi-res alone then I shall be forced into it. Otherwise it is an irreleveance, because microphone placing [and resultant accurate and intended musical balance] is so much more significant, and was being got right from 1926 onwards ...
ATB from George
I know the PC is a blind ally - not having sufficient HD space to accomodate the music even if my demand in ALAC is probably 200 to 250 Gig ...
But I have definately worked out that WAV has no definable difference for me from ALAC [Apple Lossless Audio Codec] while [lossey] MP4 [AAC] is fine enough but definably less accomplished than Apple lossless, which is a bit of a shame given the difference in HD space required!
Where this might leave Hi-res, is not something that will cause me any worry!
90 pre cent of the recordings I want are already here in Red Book Standard, and I have not the slightest interest in getting an incremental improvement in Hifi with the Hi-res issues as the music speaks in a compelling way already.
If something I want is available in Hi-res alone then I shall be forced into it. Otherwise it is an irreleveance, because microphone placing [and resultant accurate and intended musical balance] is so much more significant, and was being got right from 1926 onwards ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 24 June 2009 by fixedwheel
George
500Gb external drives (2.5" based) are available at under 75.00 each.
Buy 2, put your music / iTunes library on one.
Run something like SyncToy to duplicate it all onto the other for backup.
You can also take one with you when you travel, and plug it into a friends system to educate them with some tasteful music.
If you go the macmini route, do not forget to budget for backup drive space.
I suggest the 2.5" based drives as they use less power, even getting their power from the host PC, or powered USB hub. And are close to silent.
A while ago I bought a pair of Edirol USB speakers for 7.00, they sound awful but have an optical output on them! They are not being used at the mo, so if you want to experiment...
Another thing that looks interesting is ebay item number 260402381236
HTH
John
500Gb external drives (2.5" based) are available at under 75.00 each.
Buy 2, put your music / iTunes library on one.
Run something like SyncToy to duplicate it all onto the other for backup.
You can also take one with you when you travel, and plug it into a friends system to educate them with some tasteful music.
If you go the macmini route, do not forget to budget for backup drive space.
I suggest the 2.5" based drives as they use less power, even getting their power from the host PC, or powered USB hub. And are close to silent.
A while ago I bought a pair of Edirol USB speakers for 7.00, they sound awful but have an optical output on them! They are not being used at the mo, so if you want to experiment...
Another thing that looks interesting is ebay item number 260402381236
HTH
John
Posted on: 24 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear John,
I am tired out, as befits new replay discoveries!
If I could get a Raid assembly or even two independant external USB based Hard Drives for my current PC then, from what I am getting, I would feel no reason to necessarily go Apple at this moment! Though iTunes is alphas plus ...
The idea of taking one of my Hard Drives on holiday and driving [would be former] friends up the wall with some Bach, Haydn, or Schubert fills me with a sort of pleasure - well not really - as I would simply slink off to bed and let the music speak to me without turning people of my favourite inventors of music!
This whole area is getting very interesting!
ATB from George
I am tired out, as befits new replay discoveries!
If I could get a Raid assembly or even two independant external USB based Hard Drives for my current PC then, from what I am getting, I would feel no reason to necessarily go Apple at this moment! Though iTunes is alphas plus ...
The idea of taking one of my Hard Drives on holiday and driving [would be former] friends up the wall with some Bach, Haydn, or Schubert fills me with a sort of pleasure - well not really - as I would simply slink off to bed and let the music speak to me without turning people of my favourite inventors of music!
This whole area is getting very interesting!
ATB from George
Posted on: 25 June 2009 by fixedwheel
George
The Raid or NAS boxes are fine, but they tend to be based on 3.5" drives, and usually have a fan assembly that runs part time. The 2.5" are quieter, and as they pull their power from the USB connection it means far less mains adapters around the place.
SyncToy is a freebie from Microsoft, just search for it on the Microsoft site.
I must admit that I have tried different ways of getting the SPDIF to the hifi, even building a very low power fanless PC, running a 2.5" drive, and remote controlling it. I keep going back to the Squeezebox for its delightful simplicity in interface.
John
The Raid or NAS boxes are fine, but they tend to be based on 3.5" drives, and usually have a fan assembly that runs part time. The 2.5" are quieter, and as they pull their power from the USB connection it means far less mains adapters around the place.
SyncToy is a freebie from Microsoft, just search for it on the Microsoft site.
I must admit that I have tried different ways of getting the SPDIF to the hifi, even building a very low power fanless PC, running a 2.5" drive, and remote controlling it. I keep going back to the Squeezebox for its delightful simplicity in interface.
John
Posted on: 25 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Continuinng experiments, which consist simply of copying faviourite CDs to the Hard Drive and listening to them with iTunes.
But certain unforseen and very pleasing things are becoming apparent.
Most discs have a very similar level of quality in normal CD playback to what results from the iTunes playback, while some few are significantly finer in iTunes ... None are less good in iTunes.
It seems that the system has a way of really letting through musical expressive detail in a way the eludes CD replay on certain occasions. It seems that far less of the expressive sweep of the original performance has died between the microphone and the listener's ear! Often releasing unexpected goose bumps at this newly revealed piece of musical expressive beauty or that ... I would say that this is not unlike the best of vinyl replay can be, but much better for the lack of surface noise and discontinuity in the fact of such short side breaks. It even can beat CD in this as some pieces actually will not fit on a single CD, but can be cued up beautifully for continuous play as in a concert with the computer! Brilliant!
Very good recording sounds quite similar, but some recordings - usually veterans or unedited live radio relays - seem to come up as if new minted when played from the HD rather than CD. I noticed something of this effect with the CDS2 compaired to previous CD players ten years ago, but this takes it a stage further.
This is very pleasing to me who has a fair proportion of recorded music that would barely count as top draw examples of Hifi at least.
In other words the HD idea is something that assists in increasing the enjoyment that can be had from less than stallar recordings, whose recording quality alone might be enough to put some people off before a start was made on the great music making contained!
This is always a vital consideration for me, and one reason why I prefered [in the old days] the CDS series of CD players along with the CD 5 to any of the CDX series players.
Of course the newer CDX series machines may have moved towards my taste by now, but they are much more than I could afford, so I make a point of avoiding them!
Very pleased with this. ATB from George
But certain unforseen and very pleasing things are becoming apparent.
Most discs have a very similar level of quality in normal CD playback to what results from the iTunes playback, while some few are significantly finer in iTunes ... None are less good in iTunes.
It seems that the system has a way of really letting through musical expressive detail in a way the eludes CD replay on certain occasions. It seems that far less of the expressive sweep of the original performance has died between the microphone and the listener's ear! Often releasing unexpected goose bumps at this newly revealed piece of musical expressive beauty or that ... I would say that this is not unlike the best of vinyl replay can be, but much better for the lack of surface noise and discontinuity in the fact of such short side breaks. It even can beat CD in this as some pieces actually will not fit on a single CD, but can be cued up beautifully for continuous play as in a concert with the computer! Brilliant!
Very good recording sounds quite similar, but some recordings - usually veterans or unedited live radio relays - seem to come up as if new minted when played from the HD rather than CD. I noticed something of this effect with the CDS2 compaired to previous CD players ten years ago, but this takes it a stage further.
This is very pleasing to me who has a fair proportion of recorded music that would barely count as top draw examples of Hifi at least.
In other words the HD idea is something that assists in increasing the enjoyment that can be had from less than stallar recordings, whose recording quality alone might be enough to put some people off before a start was made on the great music making contained!
This is always a vital consideration for me, and one reason why I prefered [in the old days] the CDS series of CD players along with the CD 5 to any of the CDX series players.
Of course the newer CDX series machines may have moved towards my taste by now, but they are much more than I could afford, so I make a point of avoiding them!
Very pleased with this. ATB from George
Posted on: 25 June 2009 by james n
Welcome to the world of computer audio George. Glad to hear you are enjoying it 
James
James
Posted on: 25 June 2009 by pcstockton
Cheers George.
Glad to have you on board.
-p
Glad to have you on board.
-p
Posted on: 25 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear James and John [fixedwheel],
Yes this is going well and makes the fixing of a sufficiently large storage capacity, which would probably not be as large as most people would want - perhaps 400 CDs worth at a maximum of central core repertoire in great performances, to run beside the usual grand selection that the radio provides - something of a priority now.
The details will be thrashed out by the Autumn, so no undue rush.
I think a 320 Gig MAC Mini with iTunes used as a dedicated machine will prove sufficient and cost effective. I like the simplicity of using iTunes with MAC and not having to stress over a specialist package, which may boost performance if I could set it up, or more importantly reset it up when things go wrong, but as the iTunes seems in some cases a not insignificant upgrade over direct CD replay, and no comnpromise in any case, then the fact that a better systems certainly do exist is irrelevant!
What would be significant would the scenario where the relatively cheap methods, with standard MAC computers and software, were less fine than current CD replay quality at the similar cost bracket.
I would not say that it makes sense to directly compare this sort of replay with CD players and HD systems like the HDX costing almost as many thousands as this will cost hundreds!
ATB from George
PS: Also to Patrick! Very pleased! Just seen your post!
Yes this is going well and makes the fixing of a sufficiently large storage capacity, which would probably not be as large as most people would want - perhaps 400 CDs worth at a maximum of central core repertoire in great performances, to run beside the usual grand selection that the radio provides - something of a priority now.
The details will be thrashed out by the Autumn, so no undue rush.
I think a 320 Gig MAC Mini with iTunes used as a dedicated machine will prove sufficient and cost effective. I like the simplicity of using iTunes with MAC and not having to stress over a specialist package, which may boost performance if I could set it up, or more importantly reset it up when things go wrong, but as the iTunes seems in some cases a not insignificant upgrade over direct CD replay, and no comnpromise in any case, then the fact that a better systems certainly do exist is irrelevant!
What would be significant would the scenario where the relatively cheap methods, with standard MAC computers and software, were less fine than current CD replay quality at the similar cost bracket.
I would not say that it makes sense to directly compare this sort of replay with CD players and HD systems like the HDX costing almost as many thousands as this will cost hundreds!
ATB from George
PS: Also to Patrick! Very pleased! Just seen your post!
Posted on: 25 June 2009 by pcstockton
George,
I am in complete concord with your sentiments above.
Although we might end up with different gear, ripper and codecs, it is all moot. itunes and ALAC would be as welcome in my world as EAC and FLACS, sonically speaking. Which is ALL that really matters. The rest is just megabyte masterbation.
They key, as we have both been able to realize, is that a computer source with a decent DAC (i dont even have that!!!) is tremendous VFM, flexible, fun, satisfying, and overall, and most of all, really enjoyable listening.
If I wasn't already dialed in with my method, I would be very content to have iTunes and WAVs fronting my kit. And I would imagine the contrary would hold for you as well.
Per always, you have the refreshing propensity to look at, as well as communicate, issues in a slightly different light than we typically digest them.
If i had to place a wager 16 months ago I would not have bet 1 shilling (?) that you would ever be a staunch proponent of a Mac/DAC source. Now it seems obvious that you should.
It is a fresh and quite unique way of becoming involved in the music, the performance itself, and the interpretation of the composition. HD based music has the ability to change the way you listen, albeit negatively in some eyes.
Fully committing and listening to a work in its entirety, in order, has its obvious merits, and should be done often. And ALWAYS the first time you listen to a new album. (A requirement of the era I grew up in. Cassette tape was a main source in the 80s. This medium gives you the least flexibility in replay with respect to cherry picking tracks or sections)
Consequently, listening to two masterings of the same album, or three cadenzas from the same concerto by different performers, is easily done with HD replay. It may have more of an educational, or hermeneutic value to it when used this way. But nevertheless very valuable and interesting. Its a free bonus you cannot fully realize in traditional replay.
a little "random" every one in a while is fun as well...
-patrick
I am in complete concord with your sentiments above.
Although we might end up with different gear, ripper and codecs, it is all moot. itunes and ALAC would be as welcome in my world as EAC and FLACS, sonically speaking. Which is ALL that really matters. The rest is just megabyte masterbation.
They key, as we have both been able to realize, is that a computer source with a decent DAC (i dont even have that!!!) is tremendous VFM, flexible, fun, satisfying, and overall, and most of all, really enjoyable listening.
If I wasn't already dialed in with my method, I would be very content to have iTunes and WAVs fronting my kit. And I would imagine the contrary would hold for you as well.
Per always, you have the refreshing propensity to look at, as well as communicate, issues in a slightly different light than we typically digest them.
If i had to place a wager 16 months ago I would not have bet 1 shilling (?) that you would ever be a staunch proponent of a Mac/DAC source. Now it seems obvious that you should.
It is a fresh and quite unique way of becoming involved in the music, the performance itself, and the interpretation of the composition. HD based music has the ability to change the way you listen, albeit negatively in some eyes.
Fully committing and listening to a work in its entirety, in order, has its obvious merits, and should be done often. And ALWAYS the first time you listen to a new album. (A requirement of the era I grew up in. Cassette tape was a main source in the 80s. This medium gives you the least flexibility in replay with respect to cherry picking tracks or sections)
Consequently, listening to two masterings of the same album, or three cadenzas from the same concerto by different performers, is easily done with HD replay. It may have more of an educational, or hermeneutic value to it when used this way. But nevertheless very valuable and interesting. Its a free bonus you cannot fully realize in traditional replay.
a little "random" every one in a while is fun as well...
-patrick
Posted on: 26 June 2009 by DHT
GffJ, if you can run to it, buy an ipod 'touch' and download the remore control application it is so cool! H
Posted on: 26 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
I have seen one working - even set the music off with it.
Very nice!
But also definately the icing on the cake.
I have a monitor, mouse, but no keyboard yet for a MAC [Mini, so when I am feeling flush I'll splurge on this rather neat remote - the iTouch!
The only remotes that I like are those that actually cue the music such as on a CD player, but one for this is more or less essential in the middle term ...
ATB from George
Very nice!
But also definately the icing on the cake.
I have a monitor, mouse, but no keyboard yet for a MAC [Mini, so when I am feeling flush I'll splurge on this rather neat remote - the iTouch!
The only remotes that I like are those that actually cue the music such as on a CD player, but one for this is more or less essential in the middle term ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 27 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Well I am managing [with a bit of titling ingenuity] to fix it so that the longer elements of Helmut Walcha's Bach [mono] Organ Cycle follow on in musically sensible fashion, in spite of the original titling mayhem on the CDs themselves!
The Eighteen Leipzig Chorales, which weigh in at a good hour and a half, now flow seemlessly in order if I would choose to so listen!
Same with the Orgelbuchlein ...
And it seems that DG/Archive's restoration producers have ensured that apt ambience is left between the tracks [not just between adjacent tracks within one disc, but in between adjacent tracks musically, but between two discs] so that the feel is of a live recital where the pieces follow quite correctly spaced with at least a good ten seconds of natural not quite silence amounting to a synthesis of ambience in the church where the recording was made [with a liberal dose of leaking air from the old instruments] and tape noise or 78 surface rustle. Organs are lucky because the sounds they make at rest are very similar to traditional analogue recording machine's at rest noises!
Nice when the ambience fades off to inicate the end as if the producers are politely acknowledging that we are no longer eavesdropping on a great musical event!
Such is the subtlety of this HD playback arrangement that the net result is certainly worth messing with to get 100 per cent right.
I am surprising myself with manipulating the system successfully!
I did the same when messing with digital parametric EQ, where I also surprised a recording engineer by showing him how to fix a boom on one of the timpanis [tuned drums] in the orchestra, even though I had never done it before! I could see what his EQ machine could do, and simplly suggested how it could be used to cure a problem cause by the hall and the microphone placement. Better to have placed the microphone differently, but there it is. He wanted to know how I could pull a value in Hertz out of the air [apparently, for it was certainly no guess] for one booming pitch that appeared every now and again!
I told him that it was "skill" and left it at that! Strangely, he was awe struck that such a thing was possible.
ATB from George
The Eighteen Leipzig Chorales, which weigh in at a good hour and a half, now flow seemlessly in order if I would choose to so listen!
Same with the Orgelbuchlein ...
And it seems that DG/Archive's restoration producers have ensured that apt ambience is left between the tracks [not just between adjacent tracks within one disc, but in between adjacent tracks musically, but between two discs] so that the feel is of a live recital where the pieces follow quite correctly spaced with at least a good ten seconds of natural not quite silence amounting to a synthesis of ambience in the church where the recording was made [with a liberal dose of leaking air from the old instruments] and tape noise or 78 surface rustle. Organs are lucky because the sounds they make at rest are very similar to traditional analogue recording machine's at rest noises!
Nice when the ambience fades off to inicate the end as if the producers are politely acknowledging that we are no longer eavesdropping on a great musical event!
Such is the subtlety of this HD playback arrangement that the net result is certainly worth messing with to get 100 per cent right.
I am surprising myself with manipulating the system successfully!
I did the same when messing with digital parametric EQ, where I also surprised a recording engineer by showing him how to fix a boom on one of the timpanis [tuned drums] in the orchestra, even though I had never done it before! I could see what his EQ machine could do, and simplly suggested how it could be used to cure a problem cause by the hall and the microphone placement. Better to have placed the microphone differently, but there it is. He wanted to know how I could pull a value in Hertz out of the air [apparently, for it was certainly no guess] for one booming pitch that appeared every now and again!
I told him that it was "skill" and left it at that! Strangely, he was awe struck that such a thing was possible.
ATB from George
Posted on: 29 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Frank,
Glad you tried the big set out with it!
Also glad to read of you finding the involvement there, but I do think it is a strange for people to expect CDS3 type quality! [I know you did not, but it is a completely different price. No Skoda is going to compete with a Bentley!].
However, think about this.
Your DAC is not run in and they do run in a bit.
It is not only Naim that runs in, so it still has some subtle improvements to make ...
I agree that the tone is more slender than the CDS3.
Bit like the difference between the 200 and the 250.2, though less so. But also the CDS3 has more in common with the 552, and the MAC/Lavry more to do with the 72 in style!
ATB from George
PS: AS you say roll on the Naim DAC! That is bound to be interesting and compelling in the fullness of time.
I feel an audition coming on when it is properly released into the wild!
Glad you tried the big set out with it!
Also glad to read of you finding the involvement there, but I do think it is a strange for people to expect CDS3 type quality! [I know you did not, but it is a completely different price. No Skoda is going to compete with a Bentley!].
However, think about this.
Your DAC is not run in and they do run in a bit.
It is not only Naim that runs in, so it still has some subtle improvements to make ...
I agree that the tone is more slender than the CDS3.
Bit like the difference between the 200 and the 250.2, though less so. But also the CDS3 has more in common with the 552, and the MAC/Lavry more to do with the 72 in style!
ATB from George
PS: AS you say roll on the Naim DAC! That is bound to be interesting and compelling in the fullness of time.
I feel an audition coming on when it is properly released into the wild!
Posted on: 29 June 2009 by u5227470736789439
It is fascinating to me to find my tapings from the radio [to TDK SA 90 tapes], which I transfered to CDRs from 1999 to 2002, seem to be really pristine.
The BBC used to broadcast some really incredibly significant archive material on Saturday afternoons in the old days.
In 1985 they spent three months broadcasting archive BBCSO recordings with Boult as chief conductor [1930-50], at a time when the orchestra was certainly not living in the shadow of any other in the world let alone the UK!
One great recording that has stood the trials and now finds itself on iTunes is the 1934 Boult/BBCSO HMV Abbey Road Studio recording of Schubert's Great C Major Symphony, which now sits resplendent, next to the same orchestra and conductor recorded live in 1969 in the Royal Albert Hall at a Prom Concert in the index! This later recording is from the BBC Legends Series, and yet the real legend is the early performance, which more than any other olden performance prefigures so much of the modern HIP style in its purity!!! The later performance is wonderful, but in a late summer afternoon way, being relaxed, yet clear, and full of the wisdom [certainly not slowness] of Boult's old age. The early performance would have caused Toscanini to consider what energy is in a performance! Actually it did for he was deeply complementary about it, and immediately set about persuading the BBC to invite him to conduct Boult's orchestra! Boult was not only cheif conductor at that stage but also head of the music department, so the business of handling the irrascible Italian fell to Boult, who managed the diplomatic aspects as well as the musical ones, frequently managing most of the rehearsals for his famous collegue, who made visits to the BBCSO in 1935, 1937, and 1938.
Such a juxtaposition is merely one of the wonders of the system!
And clearly I worked the tape levels rather well all those years ago, and the BBC themselves made splendid transfers from the original 78 discs for the broadcast.
Such programming no longer exists on the radio, sadly.
To be able to continue to preserve these priceless things is even more important than the ultimate quality possible with such as a CDS3 ...
ATB from George
The BBC used to broadcast some really incredibly significant archive material on Saturday afternoons in the old days.
In 1985 they spent three months broadcasting archive BBCSO recordings with Boult as chief conductor [1930-50], at a time when the orchestra was certainly not living in the shadow of any other in the world let alone the UK!
One great recording that has stood the trials and now finds itself on iTunes is the 1934 Boult/BBCSO HMV Abbey Road Studio recording of Schubert's Great C Major Symphony, which now sits resplendent, next to the same orchestra and conductor recorded live in 1969 in the Royal Albert Hall at a Prom Concert in the index! This later recording is from the BBC Legends Series, and yet the real legend is the early performance, which more than any other olden performance prefigures so much of the modern HIP style in its purity!!! The later performance is wonderful, but in a late summer afternoon way, being relaxed, yet clear, and full of the wisdom [certainly not slowness] of Boult's old age. The early performance would have caused Toscanini to consider what energy is in a performance! Actually it did for he was deeply complementary about it, and immediately set about persuading the BBC to invite him to conduct Boult's orchestra! Boult was not only cheif conductor at that stage but also head of the music department, so the business of handling the irrascible Italian fell to Boult, who managed the diplomatic aspects as well as the musical ones, frequently managing most of the rehearsals for his famous collegue, who made visits to the BBCSO in 1935, 1937, and 1938.
Such a juxtaposition is merely one of the wonders of the system!
And clearly I worked the tape levels rather well all those years ago, and the BBC themselves made splendid transfers from the original 78 discs for the broadcast.
Such programming no longer exists on the radio, sadly.
To be able to continue to preserve these priceless things is even more important than the ultimate quality possible with such as a CDS3 ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 29 June 2009 by DeltaSigma
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Also glad to read of you finding the involvement there, but I do think it is a strange for people to expect CDS3 type quality!
Some of us didn't know what to expect, but have certainly experienced it (and a bit more besides).