Buying a turntable

Posted by: John on 07 June 2001

I am very curious about the option of buying a turntable. I have not listened to one for over 10 years but based on a lot of the posts here many people claim the mighty CDSs are humbled by modest turntables. It seems most people have LP12s but are there any other turntables that are worth considering? I have a CDS1 and I know that if the turntable didn't compete with the CD player I would not listen to it. What turntables would out perform my CDS1? What would I expect to pay for it used in US$?

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Phil Barry

Linn LP12, Roksan, SME, VPI, Basis, Rega P9, Pink Triangle, Oracle, Michel (sp?)....

If you're near a dealer, why not pop in and listen?

Phil

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Mick P

John

You have lots of choice and at the moment it is a buyers market. A good TT is better than most CD's, its one of lifes big secrets.

I have a Garrard 401 which is a fairly heavy and large TT but they are ultra reliable and they need hardly any maintenance or set up. They go on and on and on.

They can be refurbished by several small specialist firms and I have recently purchased a Loricraft plinth which is hand crafted in 1.125" solid American Ash wood by a cabinet maker and this results in a superb looking TT which sounds great. The size is 21" x 18" so it is a chunky thing.

I have had dealers listen to this TT and they have indicated that it sounds better than a LP12.

The standard of engineering is superb, for instance, the factory took 6 working days to balance the platter correctly. They were dropped 4 ft to test shock resistance....you do that to a LP12 and its ready for the grave.

These like other TT's are selling for fairly low sums and now is the time to get one.

Loricraft have a few pics and info and their web site is www.garrard501.com which is well worth a look.

I wish you well in your search.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Dev B

John

Forget an LP12. As Mick says if you drop one it's ready to meet its maker. Even if you don't drop it, just play a record, compare it with your CDS and you will realise that it is nostalgia redefined. It's a bit like voting for that complete dillon William Hague.

However, if you are prepared to free your mind, I suggest you listen to a Garrard, Well Tempered Classic or Reference, Rega P9, Roksan Xerxes 10 (and TMS), with either a SME V or ARO (forget the Artemis)or a Michell Orbe (I heard one of these beasties recently and it is marvellous).

If you are feeling a bit more adventurous have a listen to the Platine Verdier or the Simon Yorke. Forget any SME of any incarnation. I have heard the Model 10 and 20 and feel it is the 'Audiolab' of turntables - brilliant at sonics but emotionless.

cheers

Dev

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Jay

John

After much deliberation and (believe it or not) pressure from my girlfriend, we bought our first TT, a Rega 25, a couple of weeks ago.

It's taken those two weeks to "click in" but now it's giving my CD3.5 with FC2 a run for it's money! Well worth it - but the new vinyl's costing me a fortune!

Buy a TT you won't regret it.

Jay

[This message was edited by Jay on FRIDAY 08 June 2001 at 01:10.]

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Sproggle

quote:
Forget an LP12. As Mick says if you drop one it's ready to meet its maker. Even if you don't drop it, just play a record, compare it with your CDS and you will realise that it is nostalgia redefined. It's a bit like voting for that complete dillon William Hague.

In case you didn't realise, this is an example of Dev's subtle sense of humour - in fact, he can't wait to sell his WTT and buy another LP12 - he just hasn't yet admitted it to himself.

Seriously, even if the LP12 isn't as good as the WTT [and I haven't heard the WTT long enough to have an opinion on which is better] there are very good reasons to consider an LP12. Secondhand LP12s are often available at very good prices, and any post 1984ish LP12 (with braced plinth) can be fully upgraded to current spec. [I think all earlier LP12s can be upgraded to almost current spec].

Whichever turntable you choose, I think something worth bearing in mind is that good CD players and turntables don't have the same set of strengths and weaknesses. Don't expect any turntable to be able to do everything your CDS can, but do expect any reasonable turntable to do some things better.

I suppose I'm a bit of an extremist but when I compared my then Lingo-less LP12/Ittok/K9 with a CDS1 (through a Naim pre/power with SBLs) I actually preferred my turntable, even though the CDS1 was better in almost every respect!

--Jeremy

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Top Cat

...is not a good thing. Trust me, I've been there (luckily I am insured)...

Most decent turntables should beat the CDS1 - no slur on the capabilities of the CDS1, more a statement about the limitations and musicality of vinyl. AN LP12 represents excellent value and I'd have no hesitation getting another, although in my case I want to hear all the contenders as well...

John

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Dev B

Anyone heard this deck? I think there are various models but the 2500 and 2800 are normally partnered with Graham unipivots. Surely one of our American friends has heard this deck.

Go on don't be shy.

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Arthur Bye

John:

If you want low maintenance and cheap, it's hard to beat a Rega P3 with Elys cartridge. Basically a set it and forget it unit for a lot less than $1,000 used. There are a few used ones on Audiogon. This modest set up should out do your CDS1.

Recommended by Michael Fremer, and Janet Dudley. Who could ask for more?

If you like what you hear you can then unload it and get the real deal like a Rega P9 or a fully Naimed(or Linned) LP12. Of course you'll end up with the endless cartridge wars the you invaraibly see on the Forum.

You'll also be able to read and understand all those endless write ups by Michael Fremer on cartridges( and turntables). Where does this man find the time to test as many cartridges as he does?

Arthur Bye

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Steve Toy

I,m sorry but the Rega P3 just doesn't cut it against a Naim CD player. I tried an A/B comparison of Foreigner's, "I want to know what love is." between a P3 and my P25, both fitted with the same Elys cartridge. The P3 had a smaller soundstage, didn't pitch accurately, wow and flutter and all that, and when the choir started to sing at full pelt the timing was lost as the percussion was just drowned out. Also, vocals were just too forward. With the P25, the pitch remained stable, the timing cues remained intact and the soundstage was big and bold - a hallmark of vinyl reproduction. And in terms of frequency range it was better balanced - the vocals were in context and in time with the rest of the performance.
Next I did another A/B comparison between the P25 of the same track and a CD version on my CD5/FC2.
It was close. If anything the CD5 made the guitars sound cleaner and more dynamic, but the timing of the P25 was slightly better. A CDX will probably just beat the P25 overall. That will be a 700 GBP turntable, ready-to-play, with cartridge, + 150 GBP for the Rega Fono phono stage, versus a 2400 GBP CD player.
Oh, and one more thing, my P25 "dropped" four feet when the shelf on which it was placed fell off the wall. The lid scattered across the room in lots of pieces and the "picture frame" surround had to be reattached. Note that the above tests took place AFTER this damage occured and did so partly to check its effect on the turntable's performance against possible degradation as a result.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on FRIDAY 08 June 2001 at 03:19.]

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Arthur Bye

Steve and Shahreza:

I will defer to your first hand experience with the P3. My only reference point is my P9/Grado Reference, which easily outplays my CDS2.

I know that the P3/Elys is a step down, but I never thought it would be that much.

Arthur Bye

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Steve Toy

Of course it is. This TT/cartridge combo only costs 380 GBP!
Vinyl does produce a better sound for less money, but let's not take the p***!

Posted on: 07 June 2001 by Jaybar

I have not heard the basis directly, but have had extensive conversations with Musical Surroundings (the distributor) who are well aware of the diferences compared to a Linn. According to Musical Surroundings the Basis is more relazed and tonally neutral, more precise imaging and a different bass quality. It is also MUCH larger than the standard UK tables so that finding a wall shelf to fit may present problems. They did not portray the Basis as superior, but different. They were very amtter of fact about it. From the conversations, I did not feel the emphasis was on PRAT.

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Peter Stockwell

Loads of good tables out there, it all depends on what you want to spend.

Personally I'm for a non suspended design, such as Rega, Nottingham Amalogue, Clearaudio ... the list not exhaustive.

Mick's comments about a Garrard, I whole heartedly endorse, not that I'd want to drop it anywhere near my person. The Garrard may take up some space when properly installed in an appropriate plinth, but it delivers music in neutral and 'organic' way. It times beautifully.

Peter

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Alex S.

Jay,

quote:
but the new vinyl's costing me a fortune!

So buy it 2nd hand for next to nothing - I just bought 21 old faves in good condition for £15.

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Frank Abela

There are loads of decks to choose from, but only a few I could live with. Here's a list:

Set-and-forget turntables:

Well Tempered. American, quirky design that works. Great resolution, pace, frequency extremes. Occasionally can sound uninvolving, but magnificent most of the time. £2000 - £5000 plus cartridge.

Rega. British minimalist design school. Very good pace rhythm and timing - accurate rather than loose. The top P9 sometimes sounds smaller scale but perfectly formed - just like a jewel. £200 - £1700 plus cartridge.

Wilson benesch Full Circle. British circular deck with no cover. Fast pacey sound, not particularly big on scale and can sound dead in the wrong system, but absolutely fun in the right one. £2500 including cartridge (if memory serves)! I've heard it best with its own cartridge - Dynavectors did not a happy match make so it seems quite dependant on the 'package solution'.

Michell. Set the suspension once and fettle it once every 5 years. The only high-end suspended design in the set-and-forget category, thanks to its tremendous engineering. Beautifully built, excellent materials and execution. Big expansive sound, but not the fastest around, not your PRAT machine as such, especially with the basic power supply which makes it really suffer. £750 - £2000 plus arm & cartridge. Best arms are SME IV or Wilson benesch Act 0.5 for the Gyrodec and SME V for the Orbe. Also heard that the ARO is a good combiation on the Gyro.

Audio Note TT1. Based on Systemdek IIX, but with major modifications. Suspended chassis. Swings well and accomplished. £750-ish inc arm (I think).

Fettling decks - ones that need occasional servicing (once a year or maybe more)

Linn LP12. Archetypal Naim companion. Various arm and power supply combinations from multiple manufacturers. Great rhythm and swing. Famous for its euphonic mid-bass colouration which is addictive in the long term. Accomplished yet frustrating. Fantastic when on song, matchwood when out of tune. Old decks (pre'86) go out of tune quickly (6 months). New decks much better at holding tune for up to 18 months. Old decks can be brought up to new spec (except pre'86 models which don't have the corner braces to stop plinths warping). Expansive, rhythmic, not the biggest scale. Setup is a black art so ensure you have an experienced local dealer or that you like to dabble.

Audio Note TT3. Classic 3-point suspension system, 3-motor deck. Takes a variety of arms and cartridges. Keeps its tune better than the LP12. Needs fettling (but it's fairly obvious how to do) every 18 months to 2 years. Fabulous pace and rhythm, very good resolution (not quite in Well Tempered Reference class), hugely involving listen. Expansive, large scale performance with great swing - a bit like an LP12 on steroids without the mid-bass colouration and easier setup. Recommend Audio Note arms or Graham, and Audio Note cartridges but possibly Dynavector depending on arm. £2000 - £10000. Models upgradeable as and when you feel like or have the money all the way to the Reference, excluding changing the external finish of course! This is the one I want I think, but I can't afford the bugger...

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Frank Abela

Naim please note - As of yesterday, the infopop server is not displaying the messages immediately after they've been posted. It takes some minutes before this happens, so you're liable to be getting several duplicate posts.

[This message was edited by Frank Abela on FRIDAY 08 June 2001 at 12:07.]

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by woodface

All TT's have there own strenghths and weaknesses. None are perfect in every way. The ones that do image and scale often have reduced PRAT. I think this will always be the case unless you have a top of the line Rockport! I have an LP12, apparently it has character (they all have there own signature), it is euphonic (whatever that means) but when ever I swich it on I just hear music! I have heard many fantastic TT's but I honestly can't say that any of them have made me want to ditch my LP12. If I had pots of cash I would probably buy a 2nd deck to run along side it as a reference; I have a soft spot for the SME 10 even though I have never actually heard it!

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Ron The Mon

Frank,
You said concerning LP-12s;

quote:
Old decks can be brought up to new spec (except pre'86 models which don't have the corner braces to stop plinths warping)

I have a 1984 LP-12 I bought new (in beautiful rosewood finish) which has corner braces, and I started selling LP-12s in early 1985 and all had corner braces. I don't know whether this was for export decks only. Also the braces weren't used to prevent warping but stop splitting of corner joints which could cause warping as well as looking unsightly.

John (and all),
I have a friend who has a Basis which I hear, as Jaybar wrote, "different" from an LP-12 not better. Keep in mind the Basis I heard costs more than my entire hi-fi!!

Ron The Mon

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by hifidaddy

I second Frank's remarks on the Audio Note, as I now have an old Voyd turntable in my Naim based system. Said table has been found on the flea market by a friend. I repaired and overhauled turntable and tonearm.

I sold my LP12 + ARO last December in favour of that Voyd The Valdi + Helius. Much more transparency and detail, while nothing to complain what misses compared to the LP12. I just upgraded the Voyd with a Zeta tonearm and like what it is doing.

regards,
Hartmut

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Evan D. Jay

I agree with Frank as well. I recently purchased a Voyd Reference and am stunned by its exceptional performance. It gives up nothing to the Linn in terms of PRAT, but offers more resolution, better transparency, deeper and tighter bass, and more extension at the frequency extremes.

I understand that the Audio Note TT3 with the reference upgrade (includes reference bearing and platter) is better value for the money and kills the Linn. Being that it is now produced by Audio Note UK, you could probably get a good buy on one.

You really should audition it.

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Alex S.

quote:
Naim please note - As of yesterday, the infopop server is not displaying the messages immediately after they've been posted. It takes some minutes before this happens, so you're liable to be getting several duplicate posts.

Couldn't agree more

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by Alex S.

quote:
Naim please note - As of yesterday, the infopop server is not displaying the messages immediately after they've been posted. It takes some minutes before this happens, so you're liable to be getting several duplicate posts.

Definitely couldn't agree more

Posted on: 08 June 2001 by John

Thanks everyone for the responses. I need to get out there and listen. I will also check out the used LP stores to see what is available. I have phoned around and there seems to be limited TT selection where I live. I think this is going to be a difficult exercise as you have all the arm, cartridge variables and I probably won't get a chance to hear most of them on a Naim system. Any words of advise on sorting out all these variables?

Also can anyone comment on the VPI product there seems to be alot for sale on Audiogon.

Thanks
John

Posted on: 09 June 2001 by Sproggle

quote:
I started selling LP-12s in early 1985 and all had corner braces. I don't know whether this was for export decks only.

No - my 1985 LP12 came with corner braces.

--Jeremy

Posted on: 10 June 2001 by Eric Barry

If we're mentioning American high end tables, we might as well bring in VPI. In the American press they are generally considered to be the best value for money. The general characteristic is relatively neutral, but big and sweet.

I have a VPI HW-19 mk. IV with SAMA (the $2k model) and SME IV arm. It sounds nice. I haven't compared it with any other tables, either at home or in a store, so I really can't comment on it comparatively. I got such a good price on it--it was less than a new P25, including the SME--that it was total no brainer. Sound might be a little on the dead side, but my understanding is that the Basis is even deader.

An Art Dudley review from Listener of the Aries (which is $2800 I think) is on their web page--www.vpiindustries.com.

--Eri