Second thoughts about PowerLine?????????

hi jon,
if its any comfort, i recognise some of the symptoms your describe, because i am suffering from them too since installing 2 additional powerlines for the 2x250.2's, which then allowed me to demote the powerigel to a spare system. however, in my case, i have changed quite a few things -- extra sockets to accomodate the powerlines etc -- therefore new flex cable.

what i need to do is retrace my steps and find at what point the music i had not too long ago when i had powerlines on the 2 supercaps only, plus the -igel, comes back. but i will not rush to do this -- because it could simply be a few things needing to settle down...

enjoy
ken

Give it time Ken yes. I am still getting used to the change of new wall sockets. I am pretty sure even new link cables there have to settle and burn in like the rest of the stuff as over the few weeks I have had them things are getting better. I have also realised the superline does not like being disconnected and takes a couple of days to come on song.

quote:

Originally posted by hungryhalibut:
.....
I'd hold on before chopping more sockets into the walls. Naim are bound to bring out a powerline hydra type arrangement at some point.

Nigel

I am not intending to do anything for a while so I will be holding on but will still be interested in others findings.

Thanks,

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by Fozz:
Hi Richard, I have four double sockets all feeding from a spur. The arrangement is such that the spur comes in on one socket and then effectively t's off to other sockets either side.

Others may recall I was concerned about the make of socket to install but in the end found a supply of older manufacture crabtree unswitched sockets and they sounded fine so far.

Just as many have reported that left and right sockets in a single pair sound different I had a play with swapping over the plugs feeding my bass and treble amps from one socket. I found a convincingly better arrangement one way sounding more integrated and cohesive so as far as I am concerned it *is" worth playing. It costs nothing.

Your mains congfiguration is probably what I would do.

Very interested that even with this config there is variation in quality depending upon the socket.

I intend to wait a while before I do anything but I continue to be interested in other people's experiences.

Richard

I have to admit that a good power block did help me to revise my opinion about the PL and especially for the mains plug.

From my experience it takes about five days break-in time and a decent power block for the PL to shine on. Now I tend to believe that the euro mains plug, which comes with the PL, is the best for the job. Although I like the extra things the carbon plug is doing, I find the supplied one sounding more natural with better timing.

In my setup it's very important to have everything plugged into one wall socket, so a good power block is a must.

I also use a power block/strip, and I experimented with using the P/L's plugged directly into the wall socket as well, and the best sound in my opinion was when the boxes were fed from the powerstrip with P/L's and the powerstrip itself powered with a P/L.

It was suprising the effects of moving the P/L's around and of as course peoples idea of an ideal sound varies spending a bit of time doing some "Plug and Play" with the P/L's will ensure it is delivering to your taste and it's a nice way to spend an hour or so

Barrie

I now have 3 power lines plugged into an 8 way power strip connected into a single wall socket. The power lines are on my XPS2, my Hicap and my 250.2. On connection each brought an improvement in the 'body' of the sound - better lower and mid registers but no discernible impact on the higher registers - certainly no increase in sibilance. But the best overall sound came with plugging the 250.2 powerline into the power strip furthest from the wall socket!

Mike

No second thoughts here, overnight from the installation of the final two. I had to really stop myself writing something yesterday because on first installation it was OMG what have I done. I cannot really believe that mains setups settle and /or burn in like this. Anyway I am sure even more improvement will come but the sense of ease with which the music hung together this morning was incredible. I had to pull myself away to get into work. Best sound I have ever heard from any system I would say.

Keel coming hopefully at the end of Feb so may not get into work at all then.

Fozz

I've been fiddling with Powerlines tonight. Have replaced long Isotek Supreme cable running from mains socket to Isotek 6-way block with Powerline. Wow, why didn't I do this ages ago??? Just more music, dynamics and realism

Supreme now relegated to Lavry duties til I get a 6th Powerline

i can report that things are beginning to mellow quite nicely -- and the shrill tendency is much reduced now. i guess the change from powerigel to powerlines was a bit too drastic -- new plugs/4 double sockets/flex 'n all -- and this all has to "settle down", i guess.

still, i can't wait for the naim powerblock -- maybe there is going to be one unveiled at the Bristol show?

enjoy
ken

Some second thoughts here. I started with Powerline on my CD player, an Opus 21, and loved in for about a week, being so impressed by the power and shape of bass notes. But as time went by I became increasingly sensitive to high-note edginess and digititis, and one evening half-way through Joni Mitchell's 'Don Juan's Reckless Daughter' album could bear it no more. Switched to Supercap. System playing music again. But it's been the third attempt which has really paid off, on the NAP200. Gives me some (not all) the bass and wider sound stage of use on the CD player, and keeps the mid-range intact without the treble screech.

So my advice is to try the relative benefits, which may differ according to your particular setup, rather than assume the front-first hierarchy of benefits. My experience may be influenced by high-sensitivity speakers (DeVore Nines).

Ken,

I still have the Powerigel.

I'd be really interested to hear how you find your new setup compares.

I may add extra sockets to the mains spur iof its' worthwhile.

Still waiting for Cymbiosis Peter to send me a full set to play with.

Cheers

Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilko:
...try the relative benefits, which may differ according to your particular setup, rather than assume the front-first hierarchy of benefits. QUOTE]

This was what I found - putting the Powerlines on the power amps made most long term listening music sense, ahead of putting them on the source end. Seemed to 'overload' the HF otherwise.

DB.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael_B.:
Ken,
......
I may add extra sockets to the mains spur iof its' worthwhile......

This is what I am waiting to hear about from other Forum member's experiences before I try more PowerLines.

I would have thought that extra sockets on a spur would be better than a powerbloc/strip with a PowerLine feed as there will be one less 13 amp fuse (in the UK), one less lead and one less connection.

Richard

hi Mike,
with the usual proviso that my experiences may be very local, i am happy to share my experience of the transition from powerigel to powerlines. it certainly wasnt as straight forward as i thought initially. i would be very interested to hear of your experience when you adopt the powerlines.

i have 1 double crabtree fed by a 10mm radial. the installation with the -igel is therefore very straightforward -- as you know. which begs the question why did i bother to try powerlines? because, paradoxically, my system was sounding so damn fine i was curious to find out what the powerlines could do to improve it.

with the powerlines, life is not so simple if you only have 2 sockets like i do.
however, as i had 1 spare socket, i decided to try 1 powerline. i connected it to the 252's supercap, as good a place as any to try, i thought. fortunately for me, this first one connected very easily -- clicked into place nicely and you could tell the penetration was correct. for me, there was no immediate impact of a "night and day" variety. however i could tell as i listened later that evening that there was some improvement in clarity.

I also tried it on snaxo's supercap and also on the trebble amp -- yes, could hear some improvements, but nothing earth shattering.

perhaps they work better in pairs, so i thought. so i bought another one. but this time, of course i needed a power block. i have an old 4-way that i bought from grahams a long time ago wired with some white flex -- nothing special here -- but the sockets feel "the business" as they are quite heavy and of solid construction. so i connected the 4-way to one of the sockets on my 10mm feed. 2 powerlines nearest to the incoming on Grahams block, and the powerigel on the 3rd, with 2 of its outputs now unused. the powerlines were on the supercaps.

this time, the improvement was quite a bit more apparent -- but still not of the earth moving variety. i tried the powerlines on the 250.2's, this was just different -- with more or less the same clarity improvements as on the supercaps.

surprisingly this time, the powerlines were quite a bit fiddlier to connect -- so there was much swearing while trying out all these combinations.it was then i leant that the trick is NOT in forcing it in, but in aligning it properly with the socket before pushing firmly -- then you get rewarded with 2 distinct clicks before full and convincing penetration.

still with me?

i really could have just stopped at this point, but for some reason i didnt. these powerlines are strangely addictive,

I listen to radio most of the time, so i decided to get a powerline for my nat01. again, some improvements in clarity, but my NAT01 has a hiline that does not mate properly because of the it uses the old "sunk" DIN socket -- i am planning on having that changed to the proud type -- but havent had the chance.

then powerline #4 -- the time for the 555ps. this time i had run out of sockets so i connected the 2nd feed socket to a block of 2 double crabtree sockets -- connected in series. so now i had Grahams 4 way on one socket, with 2 supercap powerlines, powerigel to the 250's/geddon/hicap. and on this 2nd block, powerlines for the nat01 and 555ps.

this made a substantial gain. and is the configuration on which i reported on in "Naim at Ken's" thread. this was definitely of the earth shattering variety and i swear i have never ever heard my system sound as good as in that configuration.

but i had to spoil it all. i had some spare sockets crying out for some powerlines now, so i thought -- so i got 2 more. so that is now 6 powerlines in all. i was also quite pleased with my crabtree series powerblocks, so i replaced the Grahams 4 way with a second crabtree double series socket block.

this sounded OK'ish initially. "ahhh, dont rush to conclusions, it has to run in" i thought to myself. then over the next few days it actually got worse and worse -- tendency to squeek, and jazz brush work completely wrong on Bill Evans "At the Village Vanguard". This is the time i reported not all beer and skittles at Ken's.

Could the powerlins be faulty? well easy to answer -- just substitute ordinary Naim powerleads and listen. No difference. So the issue wasnt the powerlines. of course i could go back to the configuration that i know worked, but i didnt want to admit defeat yet. one of my 250.2's had so much work done at naim recently that its almost new -- and i had put it on treble recently as its newer -- back it went to bass service. some difference for the better -- but one of those differences you have to convince yourself is there, so no real issue here i dont think.

last night, or early this am, i removed the second 4 way crabtree extention and replaced it with grahams. this seems to be sounding a bit better -- though perhaps i need to leave it for a few days for a proper assessment. i don't fully understand this as i am still using a crabtree serial block on the other socket. i will post a photo in a mo -- as this may not be too clear.

moral of the story:
(a) powerigel is a very fine piece of kit -- i dont regret buying it now and i will use it on my spare system
(b) for me, the mains set up has turned out to be quite critical for powerlines to work -- it does seem as if the individual sockets that one buys are of very variable quality.
(c) i am desperate to find a well designed, 8-way power block that is compatible with naim powerlines, then i can stop all this messing about (and buy last 2 powerlines for geddon and hicap). i actually believe that a high quality block (unless you have enough sockets already) is a pre-requisite for optimal use of powerlines.

sorry, i am normally glowing about all things naim. this time not quite. however, i dont believe there is any problem with my powerlines. rather, i have to sort out my mains arrangements first before proper assessment of these mains leads. but please note other users have had instant success -- so, Mike, as usual, please dont extrapolate on my experience -- try them for yourself. i would be very interested to hear your experiences!!

enjoy
ken

photo as promised --still quite a bit of tidying up to do after all has settled down.



enjoy
ken

quote:

Originally posted by ken c:
i am desperate to find a well designed, 8-way power block that is compatible with naim powerlines, then i can stop all this messing about (and buy last 2 powerlines for geddon and hicap). i actually believe that a high quality block (unless you have enough sockets already) is a pre-requisite for optimal use of powerlines.
ken

I fully agree.

I have just run in a 10mm cable from fuse box to a twin socket and then 6mm cable (2 x 10mm won't fit in a socket) to 3 adjacent twin sockets. Thus giving 8 unswitched sockets. 4 with powerlines and 4 normal. This looks reasonably neat and tidy.

Getting the mains right seems critical to getting the best out of Powerlines. I now have 2 dedicated hi-fi spurs - the original 6mm and a new 10mm. Each is terminated with an MK Logic Plus double unswitched socket. My Transporter (only connection between mains earth and signal earth) is on the 10mm as is the Supercap for the 252. My 300 in on the 6mm. My logic for this arrangement being that I wanted the best possible (lowest resistance) earth path on the Transporter - 10mm Twin & Earth has a 4mm earth, wheras 6mm only has a 2.5mm earth which is about 2.8mOhm / meter more resistance. Not much, but over the 18m cable run makes a difference. The earth on the 6mm is only there for circuit protection as a chassis earth. This works for me.

Oh dear.

Maybe I have been lucky with the Powerlines.

So far, I've had nothing but good results. ( connected directly to the wall sockets or into a Siltech power strip )

Ditto

Mike

Hi all.
I would like first thoughts please!
Just got my first powerline and was wondering where to start, my system is CDX/XPS, 82/supercap, 250 on a Fraim, it is quite difficult to get to the rear of the Fraim to swap cables around so was kinda hoping I could put it on once and be very happy with it (I know I should try it on all items and see which is preferential). I don't suffer from excessive bass or shrill which I have read here can on occasion appear once a powerline is in the system.

Where is my starting point? XPS or Supercap or even 250?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Oh dear.

Maybe I have been lucky with the Powerlines.

So far, I've had nothing but good results. ( connected directly to the wall sockets or into a Siltech power strip )

perhaps not luck as such -- you probably just happen to have the right mains environment for the powerlines. i'm close, but not there yet.

anyone with experience of a powerline compatible 8-way block for UK electricity?

enjoy
ken

quote:

Originally posted by carruthers esq.:
Hi all.
I would like first thoughts please!
Just got my first powerline and was wondering where to start, my system is CDX/XPS, 82/supercap, 250 on a Fraim, it is quite difficult to get to the rear of the Fraim to swap cables around so was kinda hoping I could put it on once and be very happy with it (I know I should try it on all items and see which is preferential). I don't suffer from excessive bass or shrill which I have read here can on occasion appear once a powerline is in the system.

Where is my starting point? XPS or Supercap or even 250?

please dont conclude that shrill or any such nasty is caused by the powerline. it merely makes any mains related problems that already exist more apparent -- and i guess this is amplified in my active system.

in my case, the largest (by far) impact was on the 555ps, but as i said earlier, you should not extrapolate on from this specific experience of mine. so my advise is try it first on the easiest component to get to on your rack -- so that the connection is as uneventful as possible. you dont want components sliding off your Fraim as you try the connect the IEC.

enjoy
ken

I also have access problems to the back of my Fraim. Having grappled with putting my first powerline on my 250, I liked the result immediately and left it there.

Mike