How do hard disk music servers mitigate some concerns

daddycool

Provided the ripping was done on an HDX, there should be no difference. That's my understanding. Why does it have to be ripped on the HDX? Because the HDX uses a proprietary mechanism to do the job - which is why it takes 8 minutes to read a CD (as opposed to a typical PC taking 3 minutes).

As for fragmentation, this tends to happen mainly when files are re-written, added to and/or replaced. in the HDX case, since the files are unlikely to be edited, replaced or re-written, fragmentation would be a far lower concer than in the usual working man's computer. that said, even the HDX has an OS which must be running temporary files, swap space etc. So it must do housekeeping. One expects that Naim will have already scheduled the HDX to perform necessary defragmentation.

Incidentally, even UNIX file systems fragment. Most UNIX systems defrag regularly through scheduling as far as I know.

Whoops - looks like Phil got in first!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:

quote:

Windows XP

...and...

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
I'll pass then!

Interesting comments there ... I'd be more than happy to find out exactly why you feel that the use of Windows XP Embedded as an underlying OS is such a bad decision or are those replies based upon experiences of using Windows XP in a PC environment?

Windows XP Embedded as a core OS is very very stable and our build of Windows XP Embedded includes little of what you would see in your day-to-day PC usage and hence any experiences of Windows XP on an open PC platform bare no relevance to the servers.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Prowla, I agree that seems to be where technology is moving, but still doesn't answer the question I raised and that is the question wrt to the any quality difference between the music stored on the NAS vs. the HDD and if not why the HDD in the first place? If so then the units usefulness is limited to the storage space on the HDD. I can't imagine Naim R&D coming up with a product of limited use, but this still begs answers to the above questions.

The internal storage of the servers is there because many of the customers that the servers will go to will have requirements that are satisfied by 600-650 CDs worth of storage and won't have networks and won't want to be using external NAS drives etc.

As far as *I* have heard in my own listening there is no difference that I can perceive in the *SAME* audio files being played from a network store and from the players internal storage.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
So it is possible to rip on the HDX, have it cached there and then transfer it to the NAS. And when retrieving from NAS it is cahed again in the HDX and then played. So there would be no difference sound-wise to files ripped by the HDX stored on the internal disc or on a NAS. Correct?

It will be possible to rip directly to an external NAS device from a server in the near future - then there will be a route for the simple transition of ripping discs from internal storage to ripping discs to external storage once the servers own storage becomes full.

Phil

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by BigH47:
I'll pass then!

Actually my quote was more about the fact that I don't want/need a HDX more than the OS. I have found XP to be far more stable than previous OSs.
Cue huge computer disaster.

quote:

My understanding is it is Windows XP Embedded

Talk about sleeping with the enemy. How long before some deranged nutter devises a virus to corrupt everything on a dedicated music server like an HDX?

Thanks Dave and Phil this clears up alot of questions I was having and I'm glad someone finally addressed them since they were going to come up after listening to the HDX anyway. I do understand the issue of convenience/setup which I mentioned in my post, but why then doesn't Naim release a "music server" which just controls the ripping via its software directly to the NAS without the need for an internal HDD. From what I gather from the forum this is what most members are asking for, the highest quality rip/management, etc.. to ensure the highest quality playback with a user friendly interface to control music mx. Personally I'd love to see an "HD5x" without the HDD storage which functions as above, with quality playback between the CD5x and CDX2 for 16 bit and upgradability a la Naim with FC2x, HC2, Supercap and all of the other "Internet" type capabilities as they become available ie 24 bit download/streaming at a price point between the CD5x and CDX2. I'm more than happy to keep my Sonos capabilities separate for Rhapsody MP3, internet radio, music channels etc...via the digital in on a SN for example and let Naim concentrate on the audiophile side of things.

Hi Phil

Thanks for your comprehensive answer.

ATB Rotf

quote:

From what I gather from the forum this is what most members are asking for, the highest quality rip/management, etc.. to ensure the highest quality playback with a user friendly interface to control music mx. Personally I'd love to see an "HD5x" without the HDD storage which functions as above, with quality playback between the CD5x and CDX2 for 16 bit and upgradability a la Naim with FC2x, HC2, Supercap and all of the other "Internet" type capabilities as they become available ie 24 bit download/streaming at a price point between the CD5x and CDX2

Got it in one. This is where Linn have got it right. On the other hand i can see the appeal of the one box solution - no messing with NAS etc. I'd love a solution like that.

Just out of interest - apart from the Naimnet capabilities and the PSU upgradability what's the difference between the internals of the HDX and the NS03 ??

Cheers

James

James I agree to a point. I'm still concerned about the HDD and failure. If my NAS drive fails it is easy to remove and change or add memory capability. With the HDD it not only needs to be sent to Naim for service and subject to warranty and what is the cost to replace the HDD if the warranty is expired ( a new SATA drive 750mb currently $200 at any electronics store and I swap it myself), but what about the future obsolesence which we see happen with the transports.

Gary - my post should have said - HD5x - would love a solution like that. Posting too quickly !

James

Gary, James: HD5i, HD5x, HDX, (HDS, HD555?). Bring them on.

quote:

Gary, James: HD5i, HD5x, HDX, (HDS, HD555?). Bring them on.

I've had a lot of fun playing with the Duet and streamed music, i'm pleased that Naim are addressing this with the HDX unit, but i'm also fascinated by Linns approach to this as well. Interesting times ahead. Having a Naim box providing music to my main system with a couple of duets to cover a couple of other rooms would suit me fine.

James

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Harris:

The internal storage of the servers is there because many of the customers that the servers will go to will have requirements that are satisfied by 600-650 CDs worth of storage and won't have networks and won't want to be using external NAS drives etc.

As far as *I* have heard in my own listening there is no difference that I can perceive in the *SAME* audio files being played from a network store and from the players internal storage.

Phil

I have questions too!

1) Why no OS on a SSD? Don't say cost, its 6k pounds!
2) On naimnet, and my installer cannot answer the question. Will an Iport installed on the naimnet/netstream network, be able to update interact with the naim server?
3) What is the bit rate of the digital out?

2. iPort connected to MediaLinX will function using NetStreams-provided driver.
3. Digital out up to 96kHz/24-bit–and it sounds quite good (NS01 into SUPERNAIT).

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
Talk about sleeping with the enemy. How long before some deranged nutter devises a virus to corrupt everything on a dedicated music server like an HDX?

Not really an issue Chris ... there are lots of household devices that run on an underlying OS and that doesn't automatically make them a target for virus writers. For instance I have a number of remote controls at home that run on Linux or Windows XP / CE and a couple of my Freeview PVRs are OS based.

The server does connect to the internet but it is internally firewalled.

Whilst it might *TECHNICALLY* be possible for a virus to be written to run under XP Embedded on any device (remember XP Embedded builds are customised for the specific device so functionality that would be available under XP or even under XP Embedded on a different device could likely not be present on our servers anyway) the route to actually get it onto a server would be tortuous to say the least and it's not a very "public" target either...

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
Having a Naim box providing music to my main system with a couple of duets to cover a couple of other rooms would suit me fine.

James

...or just use your HDX to provide streamed audio data to a NaimNet system of whatever size you care to implement?

Phil

Thanks Phil. Interesting issues with which you are having to wrestle. Internet connection is obviously a necessary evil in this case.

Phil, while you can do as you mentioned via naimnet, the costs are not insubstantial as I have already spoken with Netstreams about the necessary equipment to do what you are suggesting. Furthermore if you want internet radio, rhapsody mp3, music channels etc.. there is other equiment Netstreams provides that one needs to purchase and in my opinion is prohibitive. You can achieve the same access to these things via SB/Sonos for a fraction of the cost and MP3 is still MP3 via naimnet or sonos. Furthermore, I can use 2 or 3 sonos/sb boxes attached to a network server and have distributed audio sent to the various zones in my house with different sources for a very cost effective solution without the need to purchase an NS device at $6k+ to distribute to 4 different zones. I think naimnet targets a very specific user since nothing other than the NS01/2/3 can be used as a stand alone solution. I not sure why Naim chose to go this route, the NS01 could have been developed into the "HD5x" as I mentioned above. That would have been really great and therefore incorporated the naimnet products, HDX and all other future offerings into a system that could be adapted and used in an either/or fashion and tied them all together for audiophiles and those who want audiophile music locally or that which can be distributed into a home automation system. The fact that the NS01 is not upgradable with FC2x,HC,SC as I mentioned in my comments earler even as a stand alone solution IMHO is a real shortcoming.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
daddycool
Incidentally, even UNIX file systems fragment. Most UNIX systems defrag regularly through scheduling as far as I know.

Actually, defragging can be a waste of time on a multi-user business system, as different users will be accessing different parts of different files at any given time, and the data may be stored in RAID (striped) format on a disk array, which may render the whole operation useless.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Prowla, I agree that seems to be where technology is moving, but still doesn't answer the question I raised and that is the question wrt to the any quality difference between the music stored on the NAS vs. the HDD and if not why the HDD in the first place? If so then the units usefulness is limited to the storage space on the HDD. I can't imagine Naim R&D coming up with a product of limited use, but this still begs answers to the above questions.

Sorry - you're right; I didn't answer.
It doesn't matter a jot where the data is stored (internal disk, USB drive, NAS, or any other technology that can be attached), so long as it gets to the host computer (ie. HDX) quickly enough. All technologies should be fine, but the only consideration for NAS is whether there is anything else using the network that would compete for bandwidth.

In my house I have a 24 port 10/100 mps switch for my ethernet connections. While I don't see it as an issue I could always get another switch that is dedicated to the NAS and there you go.

So I reckon you should have no issues whatsoever in getting the throughput (unless you had several systems trying to get data off your server at the same time).

My home switch is gigabit (but some of the clients are 11 Mbps WiFi)...

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Harris:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
Talk about sleeping with the enemy. How long before some deranged nutter devises a virus to corrupt everything on a dedicated music server like an HDX?

Not really an issue Chris ... there are lots of household devices that run on an underlying OS and that doesn't automatically make them a target for virus writers. For instance I have a number of remote controls at home that run on Linux or Windows XP / CE and a couple of my Freeview PVRs are OS based.

The server does connect to the internet but it is internally firewalled.

Whilst it might *TECHNICALLY* be possible for a virus to be written to run under XP Embedded on any device (remember XP Embedded builds are customised for the specific device so functionality that would be available under XP or even under XP Embedded on a different device could likely not be present on our servers anyway) the route to actually get it onto a server would be tortuous to say the least and it's not a very "public" target either...

Phil

Hi Phil

It is more than *TECHNICALLY* possible - worms exist in the wild.

That said, I accept that the HDX is not a very public target. Moreover, it is good news there is firewall inherent in the Naim code, and also Naim has hardened the code to make it as device (HDX) specific as possible and has hardened the code.

As I understand, it is not possible to download music from the Internet - you have to rip it from CD - this adds to my confidence that the HDX is safe. Am I right that a root-kit from those awfully nice Sony people would not infect it?

Thanks for participating in this discussion and clearing up my concerns. I hope the product is highly successful.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
daddycool
Incidentally, even UNIX file systems fragment. Most UNIX systems defrag regularly through scheduling as far as I know.

Depends on underlying file-system, most Unixes I've used do not need defrag. UFS (Unix File System) will not fragment unless the disk is nearly full (I think over 80%). There is no scheduled job on Mac OS X to defragment HFS+ that I'm aware of: either in cron on early OS X or /System/Library/LaunchDaemons on Tiger and Leopard.

So if you use a Mac as a music server then fragmentation should not be an issue unless you fill up the disk and constantly create, append to and delete files. If the HDX used Unix or no underlying OS then I wouldn't have the concern, but as Phil says with the HDX tests have shown it is a non-issue in any case - so my concern has evaporated.

ATB Rotf

Unfortunately munch, there is so much great music which is not out there on vinyl - Basia Bulat for one and to miss out on the most creative performer I've heard in years would be very sad.

Fortunately Oh My Darling is available on CD.

However some artists are going download only and the option is either to say forget it - or to find a way to collect and play their music.

So at some stage in the future I'll need to find a way to play such artists - I have concerns about any music player that uses Windows or Unix to make it work - I think it should be purpose written code, but that is probably because of my background.

So yes, we can just stay with vinyl or CD (I like both and do not have preference for one over the other), but if Basia et al go download only and if those four lads who shook the Wirral do likewise then what is one to do?

ATB Rotf