How do hard disk music servers mitigate some concerns

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
So I reckon you should have no issues whatsoever in getting the throughput (unless you had several systems trying to get data off your server at the same time).

The HDX / NS0x units have no problems handling up to ten (in the case of the NS02) simultaneous audio streams - even then bandwidth from the hard disc or across the network isn't a limiting factor...

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
My home switch is gigabit (but some of the clients are 11 Mbps WiFi)...

We would certainly recommend staying away from WiFi connections as a transport for audio data simply because of the variablility of WiFi reception and throughput ... remember that real-world throughput on an 11Mbits WiFi link in good (uncongested) conditions is about 3Mbits and there's a lot of kit that is competing for available bandwidth at 2.4GHz. Of course if all you're doing is using WiFi as a transport for the data for the unit to do lookups then that's less likely to be an issue but simply be sensible about what you expect WiFi to be capable of - there's really no quick, cheap and reliable substitute for a length of network cable...

Phil

Re- defragging of disk, Ive administered hundreds of solaris and a few less linux servers and defragging has never been an issue: it doesnt exist, so disk space use and re-use need not be a headache if done correctly.

By the same argument Windows must be doing it wrongly as 'have you tried to defrag you disk?' is a proposed solution to many a problem though not nearly as often as 'have you rebooted it twice?'.

There's much not to like about Windows, though there's plenty to like.

PopI

Hallooo again...

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
It is more than *TECHNICALLY* possible - worms exist in the wild.

Of course they do ... but almost exclusively for Windows PCs.

What I was trying to say (and I guess I should have been more specific but I was trying to get a few answers up here quickly) was that whilst writing a single worm or virus that was capable of being hosted over lots of different devices that run Windows XP Embedded might be technically possible - not writing a virus/worm that runs on a specific device ...

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
As I understand, it is not possible to download music from the Internet - you have to rip it from CD - this adds to my confidence that the HDX is safe. Am I right that a root-kit from those awfully nice Sony people would not infect it?

Yes, currently it is not possible to download music directly from the internet onto the box itself - we are implementing several ways of being able to *PURCHASE* music as downloads but that would be directly from reputable online music stores so there's no dragging dodgy torrents with iffy content onto the internal drives that way.

And no - Sony rootkits won't be a problem either...

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
Thanks for participating in this discussion and clearing up my concerns. I hope the product is highly successful.

Thanks... :-D

Phil

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the costs are not insubstantial as I have already spoken with Netstreams about the necessary equipment to do what you are suggesting. Furthermore if you want internet radio, rhapsody mp3, music channels etc.. there is other equiment Netstreams provides that one needs to purchase and in my opinion is prohibitive. You can achieve the same access to these things via SB/Sonos for a fraction of the cost and MP3 is still MP3 via naimnet or sonos. Furthermore, I can use 2 or 3 sonos/sb boxes attached to a network server and have distributed audio sent to the various zones in my house with different sources for a very cost effective solution without the need to purchase an NS device at $6k+ to distribute to 4 different zones.

Gary, having spoken with you on the phone about this a few times, I believe that the fundamental issues here that you may have missed are those of sound quality (which is not relevant with Sonos Rhapsody / internet radio) and reliability over a network.

There is a fundamental problem with many IP solutions as regards quality of service (QoS), once you start requesting more than a couple streams of uncompressed CD-quality data. This is something that NetStreams' StreamNet technology (used in their DigiLinX-based systems, as does NaimNet) addresses in a simple and elegant way.

This technology may (at first glance) appear to be overkill for the average guy who just wants to stream audio into his basement, but is incredibly important for larger installations where traditional balanced analogue signal distribution would become noisy, or where simple uPnP streaming would fall apart due to the lack of packet-level management.

There are plenty of solutions which individually permit a single zone to stream audio (and, in some cases, compressed video), but there is no arbitration between clients on these systems to insure that all receive the same required amount of bandwidth–and believe me, this will come up again and again (see below).

These days, our homes and businesses have lots of TCP/IP services competing for bandwidth: application servers, general internet browsing requests, VoIP, software updates, multi-player gaming, file transfers across the network. etc. Throw 802.11b/g/n Wi-Fi into the mix, and it becomes quite unpredictable to determine which services get priority with what may be unknown bandwidth (as a solution that uses wireless mesh networking might and can fall apart if the local Wi-Fi spectrum becomes congested with other channels / users / network SSIDs, or if the construction of your walls makes wireless transmission prohibitive).

Even with a seemingly capable network switch (an Apple AirPort Extreme Base Station is an unfortunate example of this, even at gigabit rating), you may still have multicast issues that become difficult to track down.

The beauty of the NaimNet / DigiLinX system lies in its ability to stream 32 stereo channels of 44.1/16-bit audio (at present spec) across 10/100Base-T CAT5e, through a properly-certified non-blocking network switch, without hiccups; this QoS is necessary to achieve a reasonable level of data streaming sufficient to assure low-latency, jitter-free operation at the receiving end.

With the significant benefit of Naim's audio engineering expertise on both the front end (server) and back end (renderer, as in room amp), it starts to get quite scary when your remote zones sound as good as your local ones–at Naim-level performance, not at commodity-level audio quality.

Going back to the thread topic–designing a music server from the ground up must be done with care given to the method by which the data gets from one place to another, multiple locations–not just at the source or destination, but at both ends simultaneously, keeping in mind, too, that a local analogue audio output is also a destination. At present, there are no other manufacturers who address this problem in as elegant and as simple a manner, at the level of sound quality we have come to expect.

Dave, I definitiely understand your POV and have looked into these isssues. To be honest in my home with the Home Automation, music distribution, internet browsing, I have not seen the noise problem (8 zones). This I'm sure is due to the fact that my home is wired with CAT5e distributed via a Linksys 24 port router (10/100 at the moment,haven't seen a need to go 1GB yet) so I am not relying on WiFi for any of my services. The only wireless device is the Sonos hand controller as all other boxes are ethernet wired. Again quality is a different issue with distribution of Sonos material, however, my Naim system is hooked up to distribute through the network switch, not ethernet distribution as Netstreams, but the old fashioned way via speaker wire-->switch-->amp-->speaker (certainly not high end speakers). It certainly is not auiophile quality, but is pretty good and better than MP3 quality. For the background music at dinner, entertaining, outside patio its more than sufficient. So, in effect I have much of the "NetStreams" set-up in my home, just not the entire ethernet/power over ethernet/local amplifier portion. I definitiely agree that at some point in the system the analog distribution will become an issue, I don't know how many zones you need to see before this starts to become noticeable. I have seen Net Stream with 17-18 zones in a home and I'm sure at this level you are defintely correct. Retro-fitting to NS would be extremely costly at $850/SL250, in-wall controllers, multiple POE devices, etc... just doesn't make sense. Since I'm in this position I definitely have a different perspective than if I was doing new construction at this time. I'd rather spend that money or a portion thereof on my main listening system knowing that in the future I always have the option to use a stand alone device such as the NNP01 for my secondary Naim system and distribute between the primary and secondary systems using naimnet.

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
but the only consideration for NAS is whether there is anything else using the network that would compete for bandwidth.

Even though I'm not a current Naim owner I'll comment on this.

Using a 100Mb connection between my PC and NAS I've been able to transfer music files to my NAS and listen to music simultaneously thru my Linn Akurate DS without any dropouts.

The only time I had dropouts was when I was using a network hub instead of a switch. Once the hub was replaced the problem got solved.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Gary, having spoken with you ....... level of sound quality we have come to expect.

A very interesting post, David.

So what would one need for let's say a three room system with one main room and one or two secondaries?

- Network cabling in the house
- a switch?
- NS01 + amp in the primary room
- NNP01 + nSats in the Secondary rooms
- one or multiple controlling devices
- a NAS somewhere

Correct? So how much would that amount to? Just curious for the homes of my parents and in-laws.

I had an interesting read of the Netstreams webiste over lunch. IIRC all the Netstreams items should integrate with the Naim Servers. Do IP speakers such as the Polk in wall types work with the Naim / Netstreams network ?

James

PS - what's the difference between a normal switch like i have in my study and a non blocking unit ?

Daddycool, it depends upon how you set up the system to determine cost. For example are you installing in wall/ceiling speakers (these will need if you do NetStreams the amplifier SL200/SL250, power over ethernet) vs. standard as you mentioned? Do you want controllers for each room if you don't have access to a computer or other hand held device eg. Nokia 800? How are you connecting either ethernet or wireless? Do you have Cat5e already set up there? Do you want to play only music stored on your NS01 or do you want the ability to access internet radio, rhapsody etc..? If you do then you need more than the NS01 and additional hardware from Netstreams will be required eg. musica or digilinx since while you can plug an ipod into the NS01 you need the netstreams hardware/software to handle the other internet based stuff. So it's difficult to get a number and you really need to sit with a technical specialist to determine your needs.That's without the other equipment you mentioned in your list. For the equipment only your talking in excess of $22K USD w/o the other amplifier to start with.

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
Actually, defragging can be a waste of time on a multi-user business system, as different users will be accessing different parts of different files at any given time, and the data may be stored in RAID (striped) format on a disk array, which may render the whole operation useless.

No, this is incorrect. Regardless of the raid/striping issues, there is still file fragmentation from the Operating Systems perspective. It is this OS level fragmentation that can REALLY hurt a business/enterpise server. Why, because a fragmented file will require MANY more IO requests to the storage controller to read a fragmented file than a contiguous one.
Defragmentation is a must.

quote:

IIRC all the Netstreams items should integrate with the Naim Servers. Do IP speakers such as the Polk in wall types work with the Naim / Netstreams network ?

Yes–with other StreamNet licensees such as Triad and Sonance to follow.

quote:

...it depends upon how you set up the system to determine cost. For example are you installing in wall/ceiling speakers (these will need if you do NetStreams the amplifier SL200/SL250, power over ethernet)

This is incorrect, an external power supply is required

quote:

vs. standard as you mentioned? Do you want controllers for each room if you don't have access to a computer or other hand held device eg. Nokia 800? How are you connecting either ethernet or wireless? Do you have Cat5e already set up there? Do you want to play only music stored on your NS01 or do you want the ability to access internet radio, rhapsody etc..? If you do then you need more than the NS01 and additional hardware from Netstreams will be required eg. musica or digilinx since while you can plug an ipod into the NS01 you need the netstreams hardware/software to handle the other internet based stuff.

quote:

(emphasis added) So it's difficult to get a number and you really need to sit with a technical specialist to determine your needs.

I can't stress how important it is to have a trained custom integrator as part of the process–many of the comments I see in these threads emanate from a general lack of familiarity with the concepts required to assemble a functional, high-quality distributed audio system.

gary1 and David thank you for your replies.

I'll talk to the Dutch distributor.