To dac or not to dac - that is the question.

Hi,
If you feel it is time to try the distributed audio route, we have the long awaited Naim DAC next to be launched. Although it has been reported to give an excellent performance at a great price, unfortunately it is not clear yet how it will work with computers.

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I am wondering whether the time has yet arrived when a computer/DAC combination can truly, significantly out-perform my cdx2/xps2 combination at a similar or lesser cost.

Please click here for a Colin Blunstone that sums it up nicely.

However, the Naim DAC with downloaded hi-def music might.

Church Warden Hi, I think you need to hear in your own home exactly what a Mac and really good dac can do, I too was extremely sceptical before i heard the mac /weiss combination I now use.

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Originally posted by church warden:


I don't wish to stir up the fundamentalists of which, from a study of other postings on this forum, there are clearly a few.

quote:

Please click here for a Colin Blunstone that sums it up nicely.

that didnt take long....

I don't see any great need to rip CDs if you have a good way to play them using a CD player any more than I see any need to digitalise vinyl.

However, we are now seeing Internet radio and hi-def downloads from Naim of music that is worth buying (e.g. Fred Simon's new album). This is the area that I see is the province of the Naim DAC. I simply don't believe that music will continually be distributed on CD for consumers to rip it themselves for much longer and if you can buy download or CD then why would you want to buy the CD just to rip it.

I doubt a ripped CD played using computer audio will sound better than the same CD played on a high quality CD player like the CDX2 unless the computer audio kit costs considerably more.

Still folk said I was mad when I suggested vinyl could sound better than CD, so perhaps I am.

ATB Rotf

Given the step up the Naim DAC made to the HDX when I listened to it I imagine a computer into Naim DAC setup is going to be a pretty amazing setup for the investment. I'm even considering it and it would be the most expensive single piece of HiFi equipment I've ever bought.

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Given the step up the Naim DAC made to the HDX when I listened to it I imagine a computer into Naim DAC setup is going to be a pretty amazing setup for the investment.

Could be, but more expensive than a CDX2 (especially if you have one already) plus all that time you've got to spend ripping CDs and trying to figure out what format and all the rest of it. However, if you don't have a CD player that you're content with then it is different story.

At some stage I would like a Naim DAC, but I'll wait a bit.

ATB Rotf

I have read with interest the forum feedback on the recent NDAC demos. However, others have noted that it is not being demoed being fed by a MAC/PC for a direct comparison. Clearly, in due course, a dealer visit armed with my own MAC/hard drive to directly compare against a CDX2/XPS2 source is the starting point.

The absence of responses from forum members stating that they have replaced their CDX2 (or above) with a DAC perhaps suggests the DAC route currently is not a clear winner.

CW I replaced the exact Naim machine as yours with Mac/Weiss it is a significant improvement, the firewire connection from mac to Weiss is worthwhile imho.

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The absence of responses from forum members stating that they have replaced their CDX2 (or above) with a DAC

Probably due to their removal from the forum

DHT - thank you for the response.

Which Weiss unit? Did you manage to arrange a home demo before purchase?

Which cable do you use to connect the Weiss to your amplification?

I'm still around

IMHO - my Mac / Lavry continues to exceed the performance of my CDS 2/ High line (rest of System 52 / 250 / Obelisks)

In due course intend to look at Weiss and the Naim DAC.

Cheers

Richard

I've got the Weiss as well - connection is just RCA to DIN to the Pre.

Google Weiss and you'll find the dealer list. There is one in London called Purite - Keith will let you try a unit which is what i did.

Mine didn't go back.

James

James

BTW - I left you a question on the other forum. It went something like this.

Lavry / Weiss close via fibre. But Weiss much better on Firewire. Confused?

If the de-jitter is working as both companies claim - then should be little difference?

Wonder how much the gap would close with a PCI card to Lavry?

Cheers

Richard

Sorry Richard - that discussion got a bit confused (Although Very Interesting )

Both solutions do have a very good de-jittering regime but running firewire takes the computer clock out of the equation - the computer is slaved to the DAC clock for audio data transfer. Whether this is down to better Jitter performance as the data doesnt need to go across the optical SPDIF interface or how the Weiss firewire driver interacts with Core Audio, compared to the SPDIF interface driver i don't know.

Some final icing on the cake - I should have Amarra from Sonic Studio to try out today for a while.

James

James -

Thanks. I'd have thought with solid de-jitter approach you would be effectively decouple from the compute clock anyway? Mostly - academic interest.

Good to here about the Amarra software are responding to someone. I signed up ages ago, received an e-mail asking further info and had heard nothing else since.

Cheers

Richard

Richard - in theory it should but playing with the Mac / Sonos / HDX / Lavry solutions at Grahams place showed a difference between optical and coaxial SPDIF and 3 different Chord digital coax cables produced different results so eliminating this interface seemed a good way to go.

Amarra just arrived - full version with iLok dongle so it'll be interesting to see what it does.

James

Sounds like a fun session. Differences in streamer dig outs is always amusing. Did you try a DC-1? The original Theta coax is also interesting. Covers some tracks yet still very good.

Been using that same firewire DICE circuit in a TC, who created it, for a while with a dig cable and get excellent results with other DACs and a coax cable. It's not the spdif coax connection that is the weakest link though of course it needs to be well chosen, as all cables. Eliminating it isn't a bad thing but the overall performance of a setup is far from dependant on it. Hard to put into relative perspective as 2 good cables will make a small difference but a bad cable is just that and can really mess things up. I believe Ferenc has experimented and found differences in firewire cables as well though I'm sure they would be smaller to what you can get relative to a poorly chosen coax. Nice to see some acceptance for moving away from 'bit perfect' TOS out . I really felt like I was running into a wall for a while there. I suspected with time and experimentation that all our views would grow closer.

Oddly enough, PSs still effect performance even in purely dig devices. Players along with configurations can play a big roll also. There's still much to consider and possibly not have optimized but these differences become easier to sort as things get better in general.

I have to say that my CDX2 has not been played in months due to quality and ease of streaming . Plus space is a big issue in our house and I have just given a couple of hundred CD's away to a local charity .
I stil buy CD's due to lack of Lossless downloads but I also now buy a lot more vinyl which will never be replaced .

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Good to here about the Amarra software are responding to someone. I signed up ages ago, received an e-mail asking further info and had heard nothing else since.

Amarra is good - very good infact

With Amarra can you play FLACs in itunes without issue?

thanks,
p

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I don't see any great need to rip CDs if you have a good way to play them using a CD player any more than I see any need to digitalise vinyl.

If I had a really nice TT I wouldn't have considered doing needle drops either.

But I don't, so i did. And I am glad I had the opportunity to experience hi res audio sourced from rare, obscure, out of print, fantastic sounding vinyl.

If i had even a modest TT I would have never even thought to consider it.

But I do have shitloads of vinyl Ive collected since I was 12. Its nice to be able to hear them again.

Not yet Patrick - due for the next release.

James

Wow.... over $1000 for some software that uses iTunes as its player... and no FLAC support?

I thought it should make you pancakes at that cost.

It must sound really, really good.

Update -

I was very kindly loaned a Weiss DAC2 to test at home. Much to my girlfriend's delight and my horror the Weiss DAC2 fed with FLAC via firewire from my MacBook clearly outperformed my CDX2/XPS2 - dynamically very similar (even when both were simply fed to my Stax headphones kit rather than the NAIM amps and Neat Motives) but more detail, more information and more control, such that the music simply made more sense.

The only thing which has slightly reduced the girlfriend's "told you so" grin was the discovery that using sbooth's rather more basic Play instead of her favoured Songbird player sounds even better.