upgrade my SBL
Posted by: jpk73 on 19 January 2002
Are there any recommended non-bassreflex speakers to replace SBL in my setup (see profile) which can be driven active?
I don't want to miss prat of SBL, but last week I listened to some Manger, Thiel, Audiophysic and Ruark...
Jun
quote:
Originally posted by Jun Keller:
Hi!Are there any recommended non-bassreflex speakers to replace SBL in my setup (see profile) which can be driven active?
I don't want to miss prat of SBL, but last week I listened to some Manger, Thiel, Audiophysic and Ruark...
Jun
jun, if i were you, i would wait for the sbl replacement which may be just round the corner(??). it could be a nightmare to match your active crossover to whatever other non-naim speaker you get. i thought you were very happy with sbl's? only reason i will be replacing mine, depending how the new one sounds is that the new one apparently will be easier to install and move, and also will probably scale better...
what did you think of those other speakers that you listened to?
enjoy
ken
SBLs are SO good at what they do upgrading them is difficult. There are a couple suggestions I could make. The first is try, if you haven't already, a 500. Difficult to believe what the 500 does to SBLs--takes them to the metaphorical next level, making active SBLs off your system sound slow, confused, etc. (Believe it or not!) The second would be to try NBLs or DBLs, although these would necessitate a new SNAXO and more amplification. Finally, you could wait for the SBL replacement, which I am confident will be even better than the SBL. What I don't know is if the qualitative jump up would be worth it. I also don't think you'd have a shot at second hand on SBL replacements for quite a while.
If it were my money I'd go for the 500.
Cheers,
Bob
There was the first one, Thiel 7.x, powered by some American ~2kwatt-amps; frontend: Audiomeca Mephisto 2-transport with DCS-upsamler and DCS-DAC: This setup sounded very clean but uninvolving. There was no fun at all... But I liked that I didn't feel any pressure in my ears - if you understand what I mean... This kind of pressure in my ears makes me tired if I am listening longer to my SBLs.
Ruark (something like Prologue) was with CDX, 5-series pre/power/flat2 and sounded much better in this setup than the Intro2. The thing was, that with the Ruarks some kind of noisy roughness disappeared... Truly SBLs are much better, but this noisy thing is still audible although much lesser than with Intros!
Audiophysic Avanti with Mace Audio amps and Wilson Benesch Cirkle-TT, Lyra-MC in a Wilson Benesch arm, Forsell Air Reference CD-Transport into a Mace Audio-DAC. Prat was quite impressive and the music was able to touch me directly. But the speakers add their own color to the sound (SBLs do as well) so we tried Manger Zerobox 103-speakers. They sound very natural without adding any color, you can listen to them without getting tired and every detail is easily understandable - so: no stress for my brain! This feeling was very nice indeed... But the music sounded a little bit enclosed in a way and could not get right to my heart...
I got the feeling that these points depend on the speaker, because the source/amps ware very different in all of the 3 setups. In long term I would like to find a speaker that has none of these limitations - - I don't have any time pressure as I like my active SBLs really very much!
Or is it a setup issue: between my listening-position and the rear wall there is no distance and I am not sure if the feeling of that pressure in my ears comes from an echo. I am a musician in an orchestra, we had a performance tonight: although I had a headache there was absolutely no pressure in my ears even at very loud levels (much MUCH louder than my SBLs)... Also I would like to know if it is possible to change that noisy roughness to a sleekily clarity, e.g.: how can I find out if one of the units needs a service?
It's very important to me to hear the music without any exertion!
Jun
P.S.: The leads in my setup are not coiled, but randomly cross each other...
you have certainly listened to many more speakers than i have listened to.
It's very important to me to hear the music without any exertion!
i agree. music shouldnt be stessful. and exertion belongs elsewhere.
from your description, sounds like your system is sounding a bit hard and perhaps relentless and not relaxing. this definitely should not be the case with the line-up you have. from where i am sitting now (my desk in my office), i am less than 1m from the line joining the sbl's -- so i suspect my listening position is more or less same as yours -- except that you probably dont have a desk between the sbl's -- there is nothing i can do about it.
over the chrismas break (what a time!!) my system was sounding hopeless -- but i traced the problem to an underperforming 1983 vintage 250, which i have simply replaced by a 200 vintage -- which also more closely matches my other 2001 vintage 250. it has cost me non-trivial money to do the upgrade, but this was the fastest way to get music back in my home.
your system is streets ahead of mine -- with 4x135's -- i dont believe there should be any feeling of hardness, let alone "ear-ache". i suspect something is wrong.
was the system sounding OK at one stage and then deteriorated afterwards?? or have you always been unsure of its performance?? have you changed anything?? have you switched your system off recently? reason i ask is with 3 supercaps the re-warmup cycle is significant. also, does your system sound consistently unsatisfactory on all sources -- e.g. what does vinyl sound like?? what about radio? how easy is it for you to re-configure the system as passive in order to assess the 135' in pairs?
i will share other experiences with active systems with you later...
enjoy(?)
ken
>you have certainly listened to many more speakers than i have listened to.
But not in my setup...
>from your description, sounds like your system is sounding a bit hard and
>perhaps relentless and not relaxing.
Not relaxing, but not hard or relentless...
>i am less than 1m from the line joining the sbl's -- so i suspect my listening
>position is more or less same as yours
I am about 3 meters from the line joining the speakers.
>was the system sounding OK at one stage and then deteriorated afterwards?
No, it increased by every update-step, also the warming-up made a big improvement!
>have you always been unsure of its performance??
No, it sounds great. I was not aware of the "ear-ache" until I listened to many other systems, but I realized that even a cd3.5/nait3/credo did not give me that kind of pressure to my ears... Funny, that the owner of this setup complained about the ear-ache when he listened to my system! I believe it has to do with my room.
>have you switched your system off recently?
It's switched on all the time...
>also, does your system sound consistently unsatisfactory on all
>sources -- e.g. what does vinyl sound like?
Thanks, that's a good idea! I will find out if it depends on the source and let you know a.s.a.p.
>how easy is it for you to re-configure the system as passive in order to
>assess the 135' in pairs?
Very easy.
>i will share other experiences with active systems with you later...
I am looking forward to!
>enjoy(?)
Yes(?) - Jun
My second problem with the sbl's is the midrange, which just doesn't sound right to me. When I listen, it sounds like its recessed in the cabinet, and somewhat detached from the rest of the music. I want to midrange (where most of the instruments in the music I listen to are located--horns, piano, voices) to be projected out in front of the speaker, and to be (at least) equal in "presence" to the bass and the treble. You know what I mean.
Now I don't know if this is a problem with the sbl's or if it's just what I must expect whenever I go from a stand mounted speaker to a floorstander.
BUT, I can say this. The Kan II's I have running now are a revalation in the midrange compared to the sbl's, and they extend up just as high (if not a bit higher) into the high frequency region than my sbl's do. Piano and saxophones are presented up and in front of the speakers--lines are just easier to follow. I can't express it any differantly. And God damned, if they are fast as hell. My lord!!!
However, the Kan II's simply don't have the heft the sbl's do. This is evident in the bass as well as the lower midrange, where the Kan II's just sound a bit (a little "bit") thin.
To my ears, though, the Kan II's are a step in the right direction, and I can see optimizing them (adding a dollop of weight and fullness) by either taking them active or bi-amping them. Funny thing, even my 250 doesn't seem to be quite enough on them. I'm trying two 250's the middle of next month (on loan from a good friend), and will let everybody know.
In the meantime, I'm trying a pair of 3/5a varients, and am seriously considering a big pair of spendors and harbeths. Also, now that I've got the 250', I'm curious to hear the Neat line again. I'm told my old amp (180) wasn't up to the task.
Judd
interesting...
i forgot to ask -- how old is the system?
i know you said you only noticed this "lack of relaxing sound" when you listened to other systems -- but since you noticed this, has this characteristics reduced, stayed the same, or increased?
please let us know what other sources sound like...
enjoy
ken
first, i have, several times in the past, pointed an accusatory finger at the sbl's when my system has been off-colour, only to find afterwards that its something else at fault.
I'm in the process of replacing my sbl's as well. I think I feel very similar to you about the sbl's, which is that to me the sound comes out a bit constrained, as if the speaker is trying to squeeze it out through a hole that is just a bit too small. I want something more effortless, though I am unwilling to give up much ("much") in terms of pace and timing. I am willing to give up bass depth, but not speed and tunefulness.
the sbls' definitely do not share the scale and effortlessness of the old isobariks. perhaps this is what you are referring to when yoiu mention "constrained" -- but i am guessing. however, what you get instead is musical nuances aplenty - tunes in percussion -- i find the sbl's capture the emotional tension and unique characterstics of different musicians much better than the bariks ever did.
My second problem with the sbl's is the midrange, which just doesn't sound right to me. When I listen, it sounds like its recessed in the cabinet, and somewhat detached from the rest of the music. I want to midrange (where most of the instruments in the music I listen to are located--horns, piano, voices) to be projected out in front of the speaker, and to be (at least) equal in "presence" to the bass and the treble. You know what I mean.
now this is NOT my experience at all. if anything, the mid on the sbl's can be a little too fwd. but i respect your view on this. i find it very hard to discuss issues related to sound stage and presentation, but one of the huge benefits of going active was that this fwdness of sbl's was tamed and i was now aware of a deeper soundstage (going BACK from the line of the speakers)and the whole thing openned up and became much more believable and enjoyable too.
Now I don't know if this is a problem with the sbl's or if it's just what I must expect whenever I go from a stand mounted speaker to a floorstander.
unless you have done this already, you might want to check out other components upstream in your system. i am not suggesting there is anything wrong there, but worth a check nevertheless. have the sbl's ALWAYS had this "constrained" character for you? did you buy them new? do they sound like that at your dealers? or in friends systems?
having said all this, i agree with you about Kans. I have Kan 1's driven my 112/150. when i grow up i will "upgrade" to that system(!!!) but the Kans are going the wrong way scale-wise, and they lack the musical weight that the sbl's have. active Kans may be better but i have never heard them and i doubt i will ever convert mine to active.
all very interesting.
so what speakers are you going for to replace the sbl's??
enjoy
ken
I think stayed the same.
With vinyl there is less of the ear-ache..., radio also sounds a little bit more released. With CD volume is at 11 o'clock, vinyl is about 2 o'clock if I want the same volume; if I listen for 15min and then press the mute-button on the RC there remains this pressure-feeling in my ears... nice low volume for me is CD 9 o'clock and LP at 11.
All items of my system are s/h except LP12, Aro and Prefix. SBLs are 2 years old and in perfect shape, CDS1 is made in 1995, 52 recent spec, the rest of it 3~5 years old I guess.
Jun
P.S.: My son is making clamor all the time, this also could be a reason...
"so what speakers are you going for to replace the sbl's??"
Honest to god, I think I'm going to end up replacing the sbl's with the kan II's I have--and maybe take them active.
I found your comments on active sbl's very interesting. I was under the impression that taking the sbl's active WOULD give them a more forard presentation in the midrange, not tame that aspect. So much so, in fact, my wife has suggested that I not sell the sbl's (or trade them in) until I've at least tried them active. Problem is, I have to dump 400-500 on a naxo first, which i may end up getting stuck with. That's a fine how-do-you-do. A pair of speakers AND a naxo i can't get along with !!!!!
Anyway, I'd say the three big contenders to replace the sbl's for me will be Kan II, sarah 9's and/or the neat petites--which i am trying again with my bigger amplifier.
I thought spendors would be Ok too, but I'm listening to them now, and they are soggy and way too plolite. And if I didn't know better I'd say the tweeter were disconnected (funny because it uses the exact same tweeter as the sbl's, which never sound tame up top.
Judd
Judd
interesting. my lp12 with the DV XX2 embarrases my cds2 -- i might have it checked sometime, just in case. i play vinyl at 12 o'clock -- this may be comparable with your 2 o'clock, depending on relative output levels -- i believe DV XX2 is a higher output cartridge than Troika (a legend!!!). so, does vinyl send you to heaven?
All items of my system are s/h except LP12, Aro and Prefix. SBLs are 2 years old and in perfect shape, CDS1 is made in 1995, 52 recent spec, the rest of it 3~5 years old I guess.
it doesnt sound like age/service is an issue then.
P.S.: My son is making clamor all the time, this also could be a reason...
ahh.. you have found your answer at last 
enjoy
ken
unfortunately, we are using words like fwd etc etc which really do not appear to have a universal meaning. i guess what i meant i gues was that when you go active, so many other aspects of the musical presentation is revealed that whatever fwdness there was becomes subjectively very insignificant and you start (or at least i start) appreciating these other musical attributes. fwiw, you also start getting a very well defined wide stereo image, with plenty of space around musicians, but without losing much coherence. to be honest, initially, i felt there was a slight loss of coherence with the sound stage expanding so much, but i dont feel at all like that these days. the presentation is "correct" (hmmmm...?). could be just i have gotten used to the new presentation. supercap on the snaxo just solidified this stage, if you get what i mean. god, the words we use!!!
there is no doubting that Kans have a very fwd presentation. i well remember a well known hifi journalist describing them as "get up and bite your ankles" speaker (or not...)
enjoy
ken
Is it possible that it's precisely the midrange strength of the SBLs that you are finding tiring? Like ken c. I find the mid on the SBLs to be very forward, i.e., distinct, present, and intense. I think that this is what helps make these speakers a very exciting listen, but it's not my cup of tea over the long haul.
When I compare my 22-year-old Isobariks to many other speakers (including the Naim speakers I've heard and, oddly enough, Linn Saras), I realize how much mid is missing in the 'briks. But at the same time I like them this way; I think this "weakness" is what makes them relaxing to listen to and helps give them the easy feel and open soundstage. (Gee, maybe I should find a round-earth forum!)
I'd try to arrange borrowing a SNAXO from your dealer--they should happy to oblige. In point of fact, it sounds like it is high time they earned their money and came out to visit to insure everything is proper. Alternatively, call Chris Koster--his number is on the NANA website. None other than Julian Vereker said Chris is "the best" at setting up Naim systems.
The difficulties you're having, both with SBLs and with CDX convince me that either something is wrong with setup or your room; or that maybe you just don't groove on the middle and upper end Naim presentation.
Concrete suggestions: Get your dealer out there ASAP. Try to borrow a SNAXO/other gear; if they won't and you really want to try active let me know--I have a boxed up SNAXO that I 'm sure we could work out a loan of.
Jun--advice about the dealer stands for you as well.
Cheers,
Bob
Judd
I'm curious, do you buy Naim gear in Colorado? If so, do you go to Audio Alternative, or is there someplace else now?
I moved from Colorado in the '80s, but I still buy Naim gear from Rick at AA. The 'Briks I mentioned in the last post were originally his own, in fact.
quote:
Originally posted by Jun Keller:
Are there any recommended non-bassreflex speakers to replace SBL in my setup (see profile) which can be driven active?I don't want to miss prat of SBL, but last week I listened to ... Ruark
Jun,
I believe that Ruark have worked with Naim in the past regarding active operation of their speakers.
Naim should be able to reconfigure a (S)NAXO for these, I believe.
Regarding your existing system - can you try an experiment for me? Remove all inputs from the 52 except the CDS & listen again.
If you can, try moving the LP12 away from the system. Same for any other steel boxes, such as tuner, tape, etc. Try it again.
I'd also suggest same for removal of your steel rack, but this might cause you rather a big hassle!
cheers, Martin