The pit bull in lipstick

Fred,

Do you ever think that maybe you come on a bit strong with this whole thing? Comparing Republicans to the Nazis? The inflammatory, and often foul language that you use? This is a Hi-Fi forum, many of your posts on this topic would be far more at home on a Rage Against The Machine forum. I personally find it a massive turn off, and I can't help thinking that if I were eligible to vote in this election, your ranting and raving might have served more to prejudice me against the Obama campaign than win me over to it.

Regards,


Dom

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:
Fred,

Do you ever think that maybe you come on a bit strong with this whole thing? Comparing Republicans to the Nazis? The inflammatory, and often foul language that you use? This is a Hi-Fi forum, many of your posts on this topic would be far more at home on a Rage Against The Machine forum. I personally find it a massive turn off, and I can't help thinking that if I were eligible to vote in this election, your ranting and raving might have served more to prejudice me against the Obama campaign than win me over to it.

Regards,


Dom

Agreed. Fred, your own insecurities have become tiresome.

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
...so we have GOP VP candidate Sarah Palin, the pit bull in lipstick (her own self-description), accusing Obama of "palling around with terrorists."

Fred, I think she was referring to the October 4th New York Time article:

Obama and ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths

quote:

Originally posted by John G.:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fred simon:
...so we have GOP VP candidate Sarah Palin, the pit bull in lipstick (her own self-description), accusing Obama of "palling around with terrorists."

Fred, I think she was referring to the October 4th New York Times article:

Obama and ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths

quote:

Originally posted by John G.:

quote:

Originally posted by John G.:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fred simon:
...so we have GOP VP candidate Sarah Palin, the pit bull in lipstick (her own self-description), accusing Obama of "palling around with terrorists."

Fred, I think she was referring to the October 4th New York Times article:

Obama and ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths

Hi, John. Yes, she was ostensibly referring to Ayers. Here's a pertinent quote from the NYT article you cited:

But the two men do not appear to have been close. Nor has Mr. Obama ever expressed sympathy for the radical views and actions of Mr. Ayers, whom he has called “somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8.”

But my point is that Palin's target audience doesn't really know much, if anything, about Ayers, The Weathermen, or radical activism in the 1960s. And, in fact, her use of the plural -- "terrorists" -- when she is ostensibly referring to only one person, is designed to trigger fear of the plural terrorists that her target audience does indeed know something about. Domestic radical left-wing terrorism is not on their radar; 9/11, Al Qaeda, and radical Muslim fundamentalism is very much on their radar, and that's what McPalin, Rove, and the RNC are counting on.

All best,
Fred

Dom and Jim, if you're being honest, you would acknowledge that if your politics and mine were on the same page, what I've written about Palin wouldn't bother you quite as much, if at all.

"Foul language"? What, you mean "fear mongering"? Well, yes, that is foul. I would hope that you both would be much more upset with the despicable fear mongering perpetrated by an increasingly desperate McPalin campaign than by my justifiable anger.

Regarding the Nazis, the only connection I've made is in reference to what Hermann Goering said at Nuremburg:

Naturally the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

This is what BushCo has been doing at every opportunity since 9/11, and McPalin, falling behind in the polls and desperate to turn things around, is taking a cue from that play book. If there's any similarity to tactics used by Nazis, well, the truth is often ugly.

Sincerely,
Fred

What Dom and Jim said.
Really, Fred, most of the people on this forum aren't even eligible to vote in the USA presidential elections. And you don't need to convince us of your point of view on all this.
Most people I know see through Palin's pathetic beauty-contestant cutesy stuff. Even most Republicans I know.
Obama's likely to win. My concern for you and others that have him on such a high pedestal is the disappointment you'll feel when he's unable to live up to your expectations once in office.
Cheers and happy voting,
David

I agree that clear attempts are being made to link him in a subliminal way to Islamic terrorism - witness the occasional references to his middle name (Hussein - mentioned by the speaker introducing Palin at her rally today) and now calls by the McCain campaign for the investigation of his donor base for "foreign" contributors. They may not openly say so but their strategy is clear enough.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:
What Dom and Jim said.
Really, Fred, most of the people on this forum aren't even eligible to vote in the USA presidential elections. And you don't need to convince us of your point of view on all this.
Most people I know see through Palin's pathetic beauty-contestant cutesy stuff. Even most Republicans I know.
Obama's likely to win. My concern for you and others that have him on such a high pedestal is the disappointment you'll feel when he's unable to live up to your expectations once in office.
Cheers and happy voting,
David

Thanks for your concern, David, I appreciate it.

I would fully expect to be disappointed to some extent by a President Obama at some point, especially since he's a committed proponent of compromise.

But I won't much notice the disappointment because I'll still be exhaling the biggest sigh of relief of my entire life that the terrible reign of BushCo will finally be over, and the world will be a better place for it, ipso facto.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:
I agree that clear attempts are being made to link him in a subliminal way to Islamic terrorism - witness the occasional references to his middle name (Hussein - mentioned by the speaker introducing Palin at her rally today) and now calls by the McCain campaign for the investigation of his donor base for "foreign" contributors. They may not openly say so but their strategy is clear enough.

And not just "occasional references to his middle name (Hussein)" ... on FOX News -- the most widely watched network -- and 24 hours a day on right-wing talk radio his middle name is invoked, and we all know exactly why.

It enrages me, and I hope it would enrage others.

Sincerely,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
It enrages me, and I hope it would enrage others.

Believe me, you are not the only one.

Michael

What did Dom and Jim say? It sounded kind of like "SHUT UP" to me.

David, are suggesting that only Brits should post on the forum or just in the padded cell? What about you? Where can one find the approved list of topics so as not to disturb the comfy revery of the "Enforcers".

How does support for Obama translate into a pedestal? Should we all just roll over and give up because Obama is (certainly) not perfect? I know what we get with McCain. If we get a fraction of what Obama aspires to, a change of direction, and a break of the hold that the current bunch has on our body politic, I will be thrilled.

Happy to be able to vote!

DCT

quote:

Originally posted by NaimDropper:
Most people I know see through Palin's pathetic beauty-contestant cutesy stuff. Even most Republicans I know.

David,

The scary part is that most people don't see it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by David Tribe:

If we get a fraction of what Obama aspires to, a change of direction, and a break of the hold that the current bunch has on our body politic, I will be thrilled.

Happy to be able to vote!

DCT

What he said.

Fred

Sarah Palin




When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. - Sinclair Lewis

Fred,

Fire away as far as I'm concerned.

If Bush isn't judged as the worst president in history then I'll be amazed. For all those of you who think the majority of Americans will see through Palin's posturing and the Foxnews spin, then you clearly haven't learned very much and don't know America very well.

The Bush Doctrine has been a disaster for the world (and America) and the Republican party's ethos and policies are writ large across the worlds stock markets as we speak. Mayhem. We are all affected by what happpens in this election.

We need a change and most likely Obama's idealsim will be ground down over time, but he CANNOT be worse than the present incumbent, or a candidate who's campaigning machine believes an ideal ticket-mate is an inexperienced, simplistic, god-fearin' (and that expression really sounds alarm bells for me), ingenue, who can chase up a few extra female votes.

Fred,

Naturally I would admit our politics are somewhat different, although I dare say that if we were ever to have a rational discussion about policy you might be surprised. I was merely suggesting that your confrontational style might not be doing your cause too much good. You spend so much time on your soapbox preaching at people, and you don't actually discuss (which is rather the point of a forum), let alone try to find common ground with people who probably don't disagree with you nearly as much as your responses to them would indicate that you think. You are also somewhat hypocritical. You complain about certain elements of the media using Obama's middle name, because you feel that they are trying to imply a link to Islam and therefore terrorism (something that if it is working to my mind says far more about the ignorance of the American voter than it does about the underhandedness of those elements of the media), yet you have just posted implying that Palin is a fascist. How is one justifiable and the other not? Or are you of the school of thought that believes "two wrongs make a right"?

Regards,


Dom

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:
Fred,

Naturally I would admit our politics are somewhat different, although I dare say that if we were ever to have a rational discussion about policy you might be surprised. I was merely suggesting that your confrontational style might not be doing your cause too much good. You spend so much time on your soapbox preaching at people, and you don't actually discuss (which is rather the point of a forum), let alone try to find common ground with people who probably don't disagree with you nearly as much as your responses to them would indicate that you think. You are also somewhat hypocritical. You complain about certain elements of the media using Obama's middle name, because you feel that they are trying to imply a link to Islam and therefore terrorism (something that if it is working to my mind says far more about the ignorance of the American voter than it does about the underhandedness of those elements of the media), yet you have just posted implying that Palin is a fascist. How is one justifiable and the other not? Or are you of the school of thought that believes "two wrongs make a right"?

Regards,


Dom

Good post Dom. I thought one of the principles underpinning the Obama campaign was that he wished to rise above the factionalisation and name-calling of US politics?

As for trusting the US elctorate-how does anyone explain Schwarzenegger? ...or was/is he a far wiser choice than I imagine?

Bruce

Fred can speak for himself but, for my part, the way in which the Nazis historically demonized their political opponents by portraying them as unpatriotic and un-German is to my mind not too dissimilar to the subtle and not so subtle techniques the McCain-Palin campaign is using to subliminally remind voters of Obama's multi-cultural background - the references to his middle name, the accusations of association with terrorists, the reminders that he is somehow "different" (Palin's statement that "he doesn't see America as the rest of us do"), etc. etc. There is a whiff of xenophobia about their campaign (as there has been in previous ones) that makes me at least feel instinctively uncomfortable with their brand - and I would regard my politics as moderately conservative if anything.

For that reason I really have no problem with anyone who compares their tactics to those of German fascists in the 1930s, in the sense that they are trying to (subtly) link their opponent in voters' minds with an enemy that is widely feared and loathed. And, as another poster has already remarked, those who live here know that there is a market in this country for that line of thinking, and the voters who think that way live in states that have a critical impact on presidential elections. It may indeed be a reflection of the intellect of some voters but it is a fact nevertheless.

Michael

I think Fred is merely reflecting the thoughts and fears of most Democrats who realise that Obama has no chance of being elected and is looking to demonise the clear favourites.

Trouble is, even if we cared, we can't vote...

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
Regarding the Nazis, the only connection I've made is in reference to what Hermann Goering said at Nuremburg:

Naturally the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

Fred,

Did Goering really say this? Have you got a link?

The reason I ask is that, notwithstanding the utterly hideous, callous and horrifying nature of Goering himself and his fellow Nazis, if I apply the quote to what Bush and Blair did over Iraq, there's not an awful lot I find wrong with it, if I'm honest.

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

Did Goering really say this? Have you got a link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Gilbert#Nuremberg_trials


Michael

Dom, that was a good post. You have firmly hit the nail on the head.

The best thing that could happen for McCain would be for Fred to get on his soapbox during prime-time television each evening, and give it to the American nation straight.

As for which candidate, and running mate, is best.........Jesus, for "top-nation" you guys don't half come up with a load of crap candidates. And I fully accept that in this respect the UK is no better.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
Regarding the Nazis, the only connection I've made is in reference to what Hermann Goering said at Nuremburg:

Naturally the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

Fred,

Did Goering really say this? Have you got a link?

The reason I ask is that, notwithstanding the utterly hideous, callous and horrifying nature of Goering himself and his fellow Nazis, if I apply the quote to what Bush and Blair did over Iraq, there's not an awful lot I find wrong with it, if I'm honest.

Michael has already cited its authenticity, and I would just add that it's exactly what you describe as Bush and Blair's game. In fact, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al, were already discussing their intent to invade Iraq in February, 2001, one month after taking office, eight months before 9/11 (all well documented in several sources, including the book by then Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neil). Not that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, but you wouldn't know that listening to the steady drumbeat BushCo was sounding starting on the very day: September 11, 2001.

And that drumbeat sounded exactly as Goering prescribed ... as a result of BushCo's successful application, and by consistently conflating Iraq and 9/11, 70% of the American public believed, erroneously, that Iraq was complicit in the 9/11 attack.

Fred

Fred

You are an intransigent fellow who seems to delight in using the term Nazi. To be frank, Nazism is often the result of intransigence.

You have pumped Obama up to god like status and if he wins, you are going to be one very let down person when you finally realise that he is the same as all other politicians, a self serving opportunist who fools mugs into voting for him.

Regards

Mick