How to get more vocal presence?

I predict 82% of people will give the same answer. The rest will say go with the Mana. Have you tried a Naim pre-amp? Even if not better than Kairn there may be the synergy effect.

John

Mark,

I reckon you will get a lot of benefit from treating the room.

Try using the search facility for recent threads on this.

I have had a lot of success damping the mid-range in my room, and now have a much less muddled / harsh sound.

I still have some problems in the bass area, but will shortly be 'upgrading' my soft furnishings (basically the big sofa in the middle of the room).

cheers, Martin

I know the Kairn quite well - if there's one thing I would never have expected it's reticence in vocals! Here's a cheap suggestion or two:

1. Lose the Russ Andrews Powerkords (free!). Try a normal bog-standard set of power cables (the ones that came with the kit), and see if this improves projection. If it does, stick with them or consider the Musicworks mains block (£120 or £200 depending on choice).

2. Have the LP12 serviced, unless done recently(£50). What you describe is quite typical of an LP12 that's 'gone off'.

More expensive options:

1. Get the LP12 cirkused. There are detractors, but this is one area the Cirkus scores heavily over the old wishy washy bearing. (Not an old LP12 lover, you understand.:) (£350-ish)

2. Get an ARO. The difference to an Ittok is more than significant - it's a bit like changing your preamp (£1200-ish).

3. Get an 82 - nothing less. (£2300 or so). It will show the Kairn a clean pair of heels and then some.

Regards,
Frank.

Mark

New SBL's are much better than the Isobariks in this area.

Compared to my friend Seans six pack Isobarik system (cds2, 52, 6x135 in Bariks) my passive SBL's (cds2, 52, 2x135 into SBL) my system has much more midrange and vocal presence - you hear all of the detail and grandeur in the voices.

Isobariks are good but properly set up SBL's are much better and more accurate. However Isobariks have much more scale and weight and if you move to SBL's you would need to see whether you can live without that.

I think the mid of the bariks is more recessed than the SBL.

Sean agrees that my system is much faster sounding than his and the midrange and top end of the SBL is fantastic, the bass is fast and tight but it misses out on the weight of the bariks.

However in your system, the Linn Kairn is the big variable - I have never heard a non Naim preamp with a Naim poweramp, but I am assuming this is not the way to go. So borrow an 82/Hicap combination off your dealer first to see if that helps Give it a week or so to warm up and se eif that helps.

Make sure the equipment is properly set up (preamp away from powersupplies etc). Set the LP12 up properly (no lid, no baseboard, etc)

Then try an Aro. The Aro's strengh is it's beautiful midband. I don't rate the Ittok at all (I had a black LV11 before I had an ARo) and I feel it is musical but inaccurate with a spashy treble.

The Troika is brilliant, get it retipped, but if you find it's bass overblown that is a sure sign that the suspension is shagged. If you want a tighter cartridge ask Frank Abela - hes got more experience than anyone here, but for what it;s worth I changed my Troika to an Arkiv2. I didn't like the Dynavector XX1-L.

Hope that helps.

Dev

Perhaps I should have mentioned what I've tried:
Naim 82: Gave better soundstage than Kairn but didn't start tapping my feet and singing along until it was switched to the Kairn! (Sorry Naim)
Aro: Umm...tried it, didn't like it (also hated no arm lift) so changed it for an....
Ekos: Better tighter faster(than Ittok), soundstage better but felt it damped the enthusiasm of the music. Returned to Ittok!
Naim (new)135s: again general all round inprovement but sounded hard against my very early 250.
Cirkus: Listened to it first time around - hated it!
But a LP12 service might be in order, I agree.
BTW Russ Andrews Power Kords did affect the stereo image but the vocals became much clearer and with a better bass so....

Could you give me your impressions of the new Arkiv, does it give better vocal projection? I listened to the original and it did, but the vocals were thin and compared poorly in richness to my Troika at the time.

BTW My LP12 has the base removed, it has a Lingo but no Trampolin (removed it when got Mana), for more attack.

mark, for how long did you try the NEW 135's??

who set up your ARO??

i have never heard the linn preamp, so cant comment. but i know the 135's and ARO well.

enjoy...

ken

Mark,

In summary:

Troika: powerful, warm full bass, richish midrange, top end not up to superb standards of rest of it, but gets amazing better in an Aro. Very Musical

Arkiv 1: Leaner bass, more forward, crisp clear top end. More information than Troika. Not Musical

Arkiv B: Fuller bass not as rich as Troika, forward dynamic mid and top. More detail than Arkiv 1 and Troika, not as musically flowing as Troika but makes up for it for it's other strengths. A bit CD like in balance. Works really well in a Well Tempered.

Frank is the one here with most experience with cartridges.

If your Troika is reaching the end of its life, the current best option appears to be an Ortofon Kontrapunkt B (£750). This new offering has taken the shop by storm as real value for money item with bags of flat-earth qualities and some good round-earth ones as well. Maybe I'll start a thread on the Kontrapunkt when I've done some more investigation.

Regards,
Frank.

frank:

quote:

---

Maybe I'll start a thread on the Kontrapunkt when I've done some more investigation

---

i, for one, would find such a thread very useful indeed. my t/t is at my dealers right now -- for repairs and new cartridge -- so, which cartridge is a very live issue for me right now. prepared to spend up to GBP1K, buy if i can get away with GBP750, then the left over can be used for other things. comparisons with equivalent and higher dynavectors, and with higher ortofons (e.g rohman) would also be very useful -- as if comparison with linn and lyra.

it is not really possible these days to "listen for yourself, compare and decide".

enjoy...

ken

Mark -

Here's my take, and its worth what you paid for it

In short, I don't think you will get useful advice in this thread about which component to switch out or buy.

Your question is very specific (wanting more vocal presence) and this can be dangerous. Getting *substantially* more vocal presence is the kind of thing that requires that the entire presentation and voicing of the system be changed. This is hard to do *and* retain the virtues of your current system.

You have decent kit and you have already tried the likely alternatives. In addition, your tastes/preferences seem a bit off the norm for the forum. I believe the combination of these things casts a shadow over the usefulness of this thread to you.

Best of luck.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

GregB may be right. Or your description may not be communicating what you want.

When i read your query, I thought a solution was to reduce the bass and the old LP12 mid-bass hump.

But the 2 best ways to do that are the ARO and the Cirkus, which you didn't like.

Aside from mentioning the obvious - like, are you sure your speakers are operating properly? - you've stumped the forum. Nice work! ;-)

Phil

Thanks to all who replied.
Moving the Bariks forward could be a solution (they are currently in alcoves either side of a fireplace about a foot out).
To the guy who thinks my preferences are 'off the norm', well
there's plenty out there (I've met them!) who dislike the lean, hifi sound of new Linn/ Naim products and those people usually own Isobariks, Troikas, non Cirkus LP12s and old Naim amps!
I'm not after a big change just a moderate improvement in the areas I mentioned. Contrary to what you think this thread has been of great usefulness, suggestions have been intelligent and thought provoking as always.

Looks like the Mana Sound Stage, another Aro listen and save up for the Archiv 2, maybe, and breaking my back moving those bloody monoliths around!

BTW I have a handy friend who has lent me the Ekos, the 135s and have made lengthy comparisons with his newer
Isobariks and Arkiv 1 setup. His system is very 'forceful and hard' sounding compared to mine, we agree - but thats another story...

Mark,

I used to run my Isobariks in a terraced house, with them positioned either side of a large chimney breast.

The room was 12' (into the alcoves) x 11'.

The sound was superb with them pulled forward so that the back of the speakers was just forward of the alcoves (and toed in by an inch or two).

cheers, Martin

Mark,

unless you've already tried some experiments in room treatment, I'd urge you to give this a try.

If your mid-range lacks projection because the bass is excessive by comparison you need more heavy furniture to absorb the bass.

Otherwise, I'd suggest you'd be looking for bookcases & other tall, hard furniture to break the sound up, rather than soft furnishings to absorb all your treble energy.

cheers, Martin

i used to run isobariks in alcoves on either side of a chimney breast. they were installed right against the back wall, with about 18" either wide of them. they were installed on derek whittington stands, sitting on very big threaded bolts screwed into my wooden floor. rest of system was 32/hicap/250 lp12/ittok/asak.

i have very foind memories of the system. despite the position of the speakers -- no boom at all. and this system could kick ass!!!

enjoy...

ken